Is MINI losing the plot?!

[Vinylseats]

It was one thing to turn the Mini into a bloated (but still cuteish) small car 10 years ago, but then came this, the rather giant Countryman:

 

 

 

And now this is on its way, the Paceman:

 

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpressnews/261142/minis_new_paceman_revealed.html

 

 

Has MINI lost its way with the original idea of a small car? Is it not about time they brought the MAXI name back?

[timmyteapot]

What people forget is that the "NEW" Mini is a BMW, its not about british heritage its about selling cars and making money, which is what they do well, personally I wouldnt have a Mini unless its got a "A" Series in it. No doubt the trendy urban types will buy one as they look "cool" Mini or not.

 

The chap in the photo is "Gert Hildebrand", guess hes German then!

[Justin Case]

German = Mini

English = Quite large

[Pete-M]

I like the quick BMW Minis. The Cooper S jobs tend to go like stink, handle well, and if you treat 'em as a small two seater they're comfy enough.

 

I realise that they're not 'real' Minis, but having owned a few of the 'real' ones I really don't want to go through that again.

 

'Real' minis are small, uncomfortable, slow, not that reliable, and if they're being driven for fun, shite on fuel compared to most modern stuff. They handle brilliantly, but in the real world they're not as good as a Ka. I gave up trying to realistically use minis back in 1990 as I don't have a need for a car that small. I don't spend all day trying to park, so owning something tiny and uncomfortable is a pointless exercise. Why give up on comfort for the sake of the occasional (once a month, maybe) parking space?

 

I would own a BMW Mini, but it'd have to be a fast one.

[Rusty Pelican]

How can anything that fugging big be called a Mini , fugly things

[Formula Autos]

From the POV of us 'shiters yes, MINI are losing the plot, as these new porky models moving ever further away from being Minis, aren't they?

 

However, from a business POV, MINI probably have it spot-on. They now have a car (the Countryman) big enough to appeal to those who like the idea of a MINI, but thought it was too small. They will probably sell shed-loads of the things, without really stealing many customers from BMW either - it's a very different beast from a 1-series.

 

MINI marches ever onward. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they launch an MPV in the next few years (another market gap for BMW to plug), which would be deeply ironic. Perhaps they could name it the MINIVAN?

[dollywobbler]

Have you seen the adverts for these things? Trendy city types faffing around stupidly in the countryside and stuff. Basically, it says that if you like this, you must be a fashion-obssessed idiot. They might have well have just put that as text on the screen. Wonder if it'll actually stop people buying them?

[Vinylseats]

I do wonder if the name MINI should now be investigated by the Trade Descriptions Act for not being what it says on the tin.

[Guest Leonard Hatred]

its not about british heritage its about selling cars and making money

 

Aye, that sounds like a most un-British concept. The Mk1 inflata-MINI was developed by Rover engineers by the way.

[M'coli]

Have you seen the adverts for these things? Trendy city types faffing around stupidly in the countryside and stuff. Basically, it says that if you like this, you must be a fashion-obssessed idiot. They might have well have just put that as text on the screen. Wonder if it'll actually stop people buying them?

Remember the original MINI adverts? "It's a MINI adventure". The young, trendy people who bought them on the back of that campaign have grown older and most likely have kids now, and all the accoutriments that go with them. The lifestyle choice that they now have to make is to get a bigger car - but what to buy that lets all the other cool, shallow people with MINIs know that they are still cool and shallow themselves? The countryman has come at just the right time for people who want to continue on their MINI adventure, but now find themselves with a growing family. Now consider the brand loyalty thing that so many manufacturers want to keep, and it'll be a winner.

 

Just a shame that they're not built in the UK.

[dollywobbler]

its not about british heritage its about selling cars and making money

 

Aye, that sounds like a most un-British concept. The Mk1 inflata-MINI was developed by Rover engineers by the way.

 

It was - then the Germans f*cked it up with the R56 facelift that made it look like a bloated frog rather than a homage to the original.

[Guest]

I don't want one, but then I'm not cool, fashionable and loaded. These are easy-to-drive cars for estate agents, daft mums and blokes with £50 haircuts. The latest one means they're now also for young professional families. As much as I like to see them about, I think people who were buying new Minis into the 90s were making a bit of a lousy choice to be honest.

 

You'd think it would have been a better idea for BL to design the Metro in such a way that it would appeal to owners of the Mini and thus replace it, but that would have made too much sense - instead they continued the Mini alongside the Metro, giving it half-baked "updates" (seemingly based around interior trim and things which became legal requirements) as everything around it became better built, more reliable and modern. Have a think about what kind of small car engines you could get in 1996 - little twincams, turbos, variable valve timing systems (e.g. VTEC). Even on the non-sports side, you could get petrol engines which would return 50mpg no sweat. What did the Mini get - a fuel-injected A-series! Even if you found that acceptable, they would still rot like mad, have lousy electrics and draughty interiors.

 

I like the Mini, but when I see a last-of-the-line tarted-up one with the stripes and spotlights, I have to wonder what we could have had instead. Instead of staying ahead of the game with all-new innovations, it was just kept on and on until it was run into the ground. It's a credit to the original design that it was able to keep going that long, but it shouldn't have needed to. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Shep Shepherd]

As far as I'm concerned, BINI never had a plot to lose.

[Formula Autos]

Totally agree with you Hirst. The Mini was great, and ahead of its time, but it should have been replaced somewhere along the line. Issigonis thought so, and came up with the 9X. Sadly, BMC/BL decided to continue producing the Mini instead. It sold well, but each passing year left it that much further behind the competition.

AR/Rover Group struggled to match the competition when it came to superminis by the late '80s/early '90s. The Metro was sold until 1990 with an A-series lump and four speed box. Compared to some (for example) Japanese superminis this was technology from the Ark. When the Metro was Roverised and given K-series engines it WAS massively improved, but still looked old (the bodyshell was launched in 1980, after all). The Rover 100 just rubbed salt in. They weren't bad cars as such, it's just that the competition seemed more enticing to most buyers. Amazingly, under the circumstances, they still sold reasonably well. As did the antiquated (even in comparison with the Metro/100) Mini.

 

As you've alluded to though Hirst, not sorting the problem of the Mini's outdatedness just put things off until another day, and allowed other manufacturers to eat into BMC/BL/AR/Rover Group's market share in the mini/supermini sector.

 

Hindsight's a wonderful thing though. I suspect I am one of several armchair BL directors who would have made even more of a mess of it than those in charge at the time.

 

[EDIT] This has little bearing on the current BMW/MINI situation, just a theory on how the Mini got to 2000 as a 'classic' rather than a modern car in Rover's range.

[Shep Shepherd]

Totally agree with you Hirst. The Mini was great, and ahead of its time, but it should have been replaced somewhere along the line. Issigonis thought so, and came up with the 9X. Sadly, BMC/BL decided to continue producing the Mini instead. It sold well, but each passing year left it that much further behind the competition.

 

I had a good sniff around the prototype at Gaydon in 2006. It's a crying shame that the car never made series production

[retro80sboy]

Give me a white (with a blue wing, and primer on every other panel) 1988 Mini City with a rattley old A series engine, rusty doors, buggered seats and leaky windows any day of the week before the new 'Countryman'.

 

In fact, the Only 'Countryman' id own would be a shitetastic Montego estate.

[Guest]

As you've alluded to though Hirst, not sorting the problem of the Mini's outdatedness just put things off until another day, and allowed other manufacturers to eat into BMC/BL/AR/Rover Group's market share in the mini/supermini sector.

 

Hindsight's a wonderful thing though. I suspect I am one of several armchair BL directors who would have made even more of a mess of it than those in charge at the time.

My (probably controversial) opinion is that there was no way of saving BL - whilst a lot of the actual models were exceptionally good, it required massive reform which the workforce would never have accepted and would have constantly been in the public eye. The only plan I can think of is to let one of the companies go independent, poach all the best and most forward-thinking staff for that, then let the rest of it tie itself in knots until it goes bust. Soz, BL fans!

[dollywobbler]

My (probably controversial) opinion is that there was no way of saving BL - whilst a lot of the actual models were exceptionally good, it required massive reform which the workforce would never have accepted and would have constantly been in the public eye. The only plan I can think of is to let one of the companies go independent, poach all the best and most forward-thinking staff for that, then let the rest of it tie itself in knots until it goes bust. Soz, BL fans!

 

No, I think you're spot on really. The trouble started with BMC. Two huge rivals merge together, but don't actually merge very much. I mean, they started well enough with the engines, but look at how many cars the B series went in. The Austin Cambridge and Morris Oxford for a start had completely different bodies, and the dealers wouldn't sell the other's products, so you end up with the next generation all having the same body and a daft amount of grilles to keep each dealer happy.

 

It was a mess well before BL took over. Look at Riley and MG. Their saloons were almost identical. What was the point?

 

Triumph might not have been a bad company to focus on. Abort the broken Stag (or actually develop the engine BEFORE launch date), focus on getting the TR7 right (it was a good seller, despite being a bit hopeless) and get the TR8 in production MUCH sooner.

[garethj]

I do wonder if the name MINI should now be investigated by the Trade Descriptions Act for not being what it says on the tin.

While you're on the phone to them, can you have a word about the SPORT button on the Corsa automatic?

[Cavcraft]

I do wonder if the name MINI should now be investigated by the Trade Descriptions Act for not being what it says on the tin.

While you're on the phone to them, can you have a word about the SPORT button on the Corsa automatic?

Or the 'Comfort' badge on the old Fiat Pandas. Unless 'comfort' in Italian translates into 'sitting on a breeze block'.

[Volksy]

They should have called the C(o)untryman the 'New' Maxi..

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I like the quick BMW Minis. The Cooper S jobs tend to go like stink, handle well, and if you treat 'em as a small two seater they're comfy enough.

 

I realise that they're not 'real' Minis, but having owned a few of the 'real' ones I really don't want to go through that again.

 

'Real' minis are small, uncomfortable, slow, not that reliable, and if they're being driven for fun, shite on fuel compared to most modern stuff. They handle brilliantly, but in the real world they're not as good as a Ka. I gave up trying to realistically use minis back in 1990 as I don't have a need for a car that small. I don't spend all day trying to park, so owning something tiny and uncomfortable is a pointless exercise. Why give up on comfort for the sake of the occasional (once a month, maybe) parking space?

 

I would own a BMW Mini, but it'd have to be a fast one.

 

Agreed. Original Minis are utter wank and the only ones worthy of consideration are the originals (Mark 1 and 2 with sliding windows) as they make quite a pleasant weekend tram when the weather is good. I had two Cooper S' and they are a good laugh. Ownership and regular use of a newer BL Mini seems to mark you down as one of those weirdos who go to every Mini show and dress their cars up as a Dalek or a sheep (I'm not kidding. I've seen it), driving to said shows in a convoy on the M25 and being a prat.

The BMW Mini was a great idea in 2002. The original Chrysler engined versions were a neat bit of design. The Cooper was good, and the supercharged S a fantastic (if thirsty) fun car. But they fucked it up somehow. The bigger, restyled R56 with it's stupid grille and fat arse looks crap and the Cuntryman/Clubfoot are just awful. There is no shortage of 'look at me' lifestyle twats who think Bridget Jones was a great film, so BMW will sell every one it makes.

Compared to the currenty range, an original 2002-5 Cooper with the nicer wheels is quite okay. I'd suffer one.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

its not about british heritage its about selling cars and making money

 

Aye, that sounds like a most un-British concept. The Mk1 inflata-MINI was developed by Rover engineers by the way.

 

 

Well, considering BMW bought Rover in 1994 - eight years before it was launched - that's either not true or of little consequence...........

[dollywobbler]

It is true. Read all about it at www.aronline.co.uk if you like. The New Mini had been on the cards for a very long time - but there was never the funding required. BMW just financed it, and when it looked promising, ran off to Germany with the ball.

 

The new MINI is like the original in many ways. Despite decades between them in development terms, the suspension is still shocking. The windows still blast you with air if you dare open them too.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

It is true. Read all about it at http://www.aronline.co.uk if you like. The New Mini had been on the cards for a very long time - but there was never the funding required. BMW just financed it, and when it looked promising, ran off to Germany with the ball.

 

 

 

Just read it - but it still essentially says that it was a vague Rover idea that BMW saw through.

[Lord Sterling]

BMW bought the rights to the name "Mini" and as has already been said, thier game is create cars they think will sell to the daft and "trendy" types. For BMW, the name "MIni" is just that, simply a name.

 

BMC/Austin-Rover actually had many good in-house designs that were sadly, for one reason or another (Usually penny-pinching) they never out into production:

 

There were a few attempts at redesigning the original Mini and Metro.

 

 

 

What the Metro/Rover 100 replacements could have been:

 

[Richard]

I don't know where the idea comes from that the original BINI was less bloated than the current one. That's like saying one of the little cunts from the Vauxhall adverts is less fat than the other.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

I don't know where the idea comes from that the original BINI was less bloated than the current one. That's like saying one of the little cunts from the Vauxhall adverts is less fat than the other.

 

Quite easy. Park an original BMW Mini next to a current one - the latest one (R56) is an original with a fat suit on. It's expanded by about 4 inches everywhere and it's horrid.

[Pete-M]

Time for an admission.

 

Driving to work yesterday morning, in the Jag, I was being followed by a rather tall car I didn't recognise for a while. Thought it was probably one of the billion different Jap HRV type things. Couldn't work out what it was because it was following a bit too closely for my liking on the ice. Was enough of a mission keeping my car going to be worried about what the type of car that was a bit too close to mine was.

 

Until it went past at the lights. A Mini Countryman. Fuck me, I didn't realise they were that bloody big. The base of the windows is about 3/4 of the way up the Jag one. This was the Cooper S one. I imagine it's 4wd? It seemed to go well on the snow.

[Vinylseats]

Congratulations on possibly being the first person on this forum to see one. Yep, it's a 4x4. I haven't seen one yet. I'm intrigued by them but I still think it's a bit daft for it to be called a Mini.