RichardKs wanderings: The Box

[EyesWeldedShut]

11 hours ago, RichardK said:

 

 

This image reminds me of the opening titles to "The Six Million Dollar Man".

The next C6 post  reminds me of this (and why we revel in it?)

[2flags]

What is the tax bracket for them? Is it just ouch or is OMGHFM? 

[EspenO]

48 minutes ago, RichardK said:

For the BMW? (I'm asking because I saw TRW logos on the C6 today 😂)

Yep, for the BMW 🙂 At least for the 1/3-series.

[Schaefft]

7 minutes ago, 2flags said:

What is the tax bracket for them? Is it just ouch or is OMGHFM? 

The latter unfortunately, but then again its hardly gonna be functional and on the road most of the time anyway so why even bother taxing it?🤣

[2flags]

So, it's a case of "I'm just taking for its MoT officer, again. Honest."

[RichardK]

1 hour ago, 2flags said:

What is the tax bracket for them? Is it just ouch or is OMGHFM? 

"What's in the box?"

Tax class: Gom Jabbar

[RichardK]

1 hour ago, Schaefft said:

The latter unfortunately, but then again its hardly gonna be functional and on the road most of the time anyway so why even bother taxing it?🤣

Shush. This car is the most reliable I own based on track record of FTP.

Admittedly the P is sometimes without handbrake, lights, confidence...

[GeordieInExile]

59 minutes ago, RichardK said:

Shush. This car is the most reliable I own based on track record of FTP.

Admittedly the P is sometimes without handbrake, lights, confidence...

It only FTP'd twice on me. Once when the handbrake broke and again when the battery died. 

[RichardK]

13 hours ago, GeordieInExile said:

It only FTP'd twice on me. Once when the handbrake broke and again when the battery died. 

That means it's about due for an interesting one, i think?

Halfords didn't break TOO much trim fitting the battery (bent parcel shelf lower trim cracking the fibreboard, broken off clips on the red terminal cover, vent pipe not fitted and trapped in the quarter panel), but I wish they'd put a 100Ah silver one in for the effort - I think this one has just not been up to the task as the car goes into Eco mode almost immediately even when the battery is fully charged.

So I'm fitting a 100Ah one, and then going to see what possible drains could be bringing it down (as the one in the car SHOULD have been fine to run things normally). I'm very curious about Diagbox's assertion that there's a short circuit on the handbrake motor module - that could be causing all kinds of weirdness if it's a real error, but given I seem to have no headlights with ignition on, etc. - again, even with the charger connected - there's a lot of low voltage adjacent behaviour. 

New battery installed, cleaned up some contacts on the terminals and fuseblocks as well. And it fixed...

...well, nothing of note, but I do have headlights again which is a bonus.

[RichardK]

Depressurise C6

Wonder why it's sitting weird

Look at LDS cap

Remove LDS cap

Get towels...

Curse people who don't know Citroens yet feel happy taking money off people to repair Citroens.

[Dave_Q]

I thought the Eco mode was just based on a timer not battery charge? 

I had a C8 and it always went to Eco like 3-4mins after turning off. Likewise a Scudo (Dispatch) II.

[Jazoli]

20 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

I thought the Eco mode was just based on a timer not battery charge? 

I had a C8 and it always went to Eco like 3-4mins after turning off. Likewise a Scudo (Dispatch) II.

It does, it’s just a timer.

[RichardK]

Eco is (also) based on charge - on a new car, with a new battery, Eco should last 10-20 minutes depending on what gadgets you mess with - I suspect the C6 is old enough to have a lurking alarm with dying NiCd pack draining stuff even before we get into "right, what's broken" territory

[RichardK]

1 minute ago, Jazoli said:

It does, it’s just a timer.

This is in Eco mode the minute you switch off - no timers getting involved here! By design it was supposed to let you leave the radio on for a few minutes, or support a resting climate control mode - but when eco mode cuts in things like "headlights" (inc follow home) are disabled and in this case, I'm getting disabled headlights almost instantly.

it draws a LOT of power in ignition on, nowt happening mode - my 5.0A CTek wires were warm and it's topping up a brand new 100Ah battery now. This may lend some credence to the "electronic handbrake short circuit" error.

Rides better with correct-ish amount of LDS but looking at the data the front right height corrector is way out of spec. Most saying 2-3V and this one saying 0.3v at service position. Some weird shit going on there but it gives me a place to start to resolve the low nose and probably eliminate some of the float (which I like, but is a bit too DS-like for a C6's ambitions).

[dome]

Loving the car and the Bomb the Bass reference 👌

[AnthonyG]

Re all the Peugeot vs Citroen stuff,  how many C6s were sold compared to 607s though?

I mean I can’t imagine any of these cars was a good return on the investment for PSA, but a 607 would have been much cheaper to develop (I know virtually nothing about them, so am lazily assuming they were a reworked 605), and much more likely to be bought by fleets, companies etc, at least in France. Also the 607 seemed to be on the market for much longer, like 2000ish to 2009, whereas C6 was just for 4 or 5 years? 

[DVee8]

On 11/06/2024 at 22:26, Schaefft said:

The latter unfortunately, but then again its hardly gonna be functional and on the road most of the time anyway so why even bother taxing it?🤣

My next door neighbour's son had a hotted up million bhp Seat Leon. He would tax on a Friday and cancel on  Sunday night. 

Apparently it showed as taxed, the weekend's he used it and sorned when not.

[GeordieInExile]

On 12/06/2024 at 21:23, AnthonyG said:

Re all the Peugeot vs Citroen stuff,  how many C6s were sold compared to 607s though?

I mean I can’t imagine any of these cars was a good return on the investment for PSA, but a 607 would have been much cheaper to develop (I know virtually nothing about them, so am lazily assuming they were a reworked 605), and much more likely to be bought by fleets, companies etc, at least in France. Also the 607 seemed to be on the market for much longer, like 2000ish to 2009, whereas C6 was just for 4 or 5 years? 

Was the 607 not also a 407 in a fat suit? But without all the complex suspension and electronics of the C6. 

Edit: nope! You are correct. Based on the 605 chassis.

[RichardK]

607s are weirdly old. But they do have some C6-ness - battery in the boot for example. I think Peugeot just claim "based on" the previous generation and really the tech evolves piece by piece, so 607 = 605 with bigger framing, new electronics, 407 = C5 but boring, C6 = C5 with Peugeot AMVAR damping and too much bodywork, etc.

Some bits of the C6 are definitely inherited from CXs and XMs...

I've always been wary of North East/Borders cars for rust.

And I'm also very curious about what's /really/ been done with this handbrake, given the rusty, partially or not-at-all moved undertray fixings...

And of course, the gift that keeps on giving - fucking idiot garages that don't know how to jack up Citroens and can't be arsed learning how to properly care or work for cars entrusted to them...

Now, I am in two minds on what I do with this, but the sill rebate is a long, fairly straight piece and it's corroded due to the plastic covers and inevitable destruction of jacking points (which are pathetic weedy stick out bits of metal - a joke for a car of this size). It probably wouldn't be the worst think in the world to catch now, strip the sill trims off, and get fixed before it's dissolved the lot.

I bet repair panels are "buy a whole side of the car" though.

Handbrake cables are attached at the handbrake end but I am very curious to know if that first garage actually followed the diagnostics properly.

And which garage topped up the LDS - I bet they jacked it up without taking the cap off the bottle.

 

[RichardK]

On 12/06/2024 at 21:23, AnthonyG said:

Re all the Peugeot vs Citroen stuff,  how many C6s were sold compared to 607s though?

I mean I can’t imagine any of these cars was a good return on the investment for PSA, but a 607 would have been much cheaper to develop (I know virtually nothing about them, so am lazily assuming they were a reworked 605), and much more likely to be bought by fleets, companies etc, at least in France. Also the 607 seemed to be on the market for much longer, like 2000ish to 2009, whereas C6 was just for 4 or 5 years? 

Oh, the 607 was a bigger seller than the C6, but I don't believe PSA ever intended the C6 to be a volume seller.

The 607 was offered in Europe from 2000 to 2010, whereas the C6 was offered from 2005 to 2012 - UK 607s ended in 2008, so it feels like the C6 was a 'replacement' to my mind, but I seem to remember the C6's sales figures looking not that far off the XM's final years.

Today has been about talking to the C3 sensodrive and trying to make the gearbox behave. I think I succeeded. Still feels a bit rough despite new plugs, and it's leaking oil down the front of the engine and all ove the alternator, which can't be helpful. But pragmatically, it just gets the bits it needs - screenwash bottle, wheel arch liner, and clips to try and restore the half-assed accident repair it's suffered a few years ago.

And I got a pressure brake bleeder, the fancy laser one. Why? Because I can use it to provide 0.5 bar of pressure to the C6's LDS tank and thus, bleed the bloody thing properly. Then I can weigh up the horror of jacking the bastard thing up myself (properly, unlike the assholes who have worked on it before and crushed the floor, jacking points and anything else they can shove a jack under) to replace the OSF height corrector module which I am 85% sure is why it's sitting low at the front.

If I can sell that Range Rover I'll happily take my time, chill out and give the C6 far more time and money than it deserves, though I still maintain the weird logic that buying a four-poster lift for £2.5K makes more sense than giving a car to a garage for a £400 repair bill. Surely there must be garages that actually do the jobs they're paid for and don't break everything in the process? I just never seem to find them - and seem very skilled at finding the evidence that previous owners have also not found these garages either!

[EyesWeldedShut]

4 minutes ago, RichardK said:

I still maintain the weird logic  Man math says  that buying a four-poster lift for £2.5K - makes perfect sense

Fixed that for you - living my C6 dream* vicariously

[2flags]

I think that is most of our dream, to buy a house that has attached/next door an abandoned garage, with proper bays, working ramps and room for more shite than we can throw a stick at, or failing that a fucking great barn that we can fill/hide countless amount of shite in. I know for most of us, that is a pipe dream, but why else would we play the lottery for? 😁😁

[RichardK]

Today in "Citroens with depressing auras"

[RichardK]

I had to wait until daylight to do the front one...

How it started

How its going

[RichardK]

Went to Tesco yesterday and parked next to a Jag XF - came out and the owner was giving the C6 a proper look!

Only after did I realise they were probably trying to work out what kind of Pterodactyl had copiously shit all over the passenger side. No pictures I'm afraid, it was like two birds, one Cit, but worse.

I've ordered a NEW, FROM CITROEN front height sensor. They're different part numbers - and colours - front right is yellow, front left is red, rear ones are blue or green. Part of me was annoyed that the front right wasn't green as that would be easy to remember. I'm optimistic that this will get the front end to settle at heights other than 'let the bumpers hit the floor' and 'workshop 5mph limit'; at the moment you can set normal or 'ew puddles' height for the back correctly but the front won't budge until full height is selected, and then when you drop the height, you can catch the nose mid-fall by choosing lowest, then normal, but it drops eventually.

Diagbox revealed the front right sensor was showing only 0.39v when all the others sit around 2-3V, so I'm fairly sure that's the problem. Of course, there's a chance Citroen Parts Direct might come back and say the part i need is NLA...

If it turns out that I've got left and right mixed up I'll buy a front left sensor as well - they're much easier to find for some reason.

All the parts are 5273 Jn where n denotes a colour of lever and thus, placement on the car, but the sensor seems to be a design commonly used across all kinds of vehicles. I think the placement and colour means the lever is fixed at a different angle. There are third-party parts on AliExpress etc. but I would much rather have this aspect of the car right, given the effort it is to change the buggers, than spend £30 on a pattern unit that may not last as long, may be the wrong spec (did you know that if you fit mismatched EGRs or MAF sensors, the MAF sensors don't balance?!), and will involve getting under the bloody thing AGAIN.

In some ways it feels like the C6 is the ultimate car for hackers to play with, Cyberpunk style - everything is 'generic but somehow forced to be proprietary by Citroen's engineers to make it really fucking hard to maintain it', from it still running the old VANbus architecture when C5s etc. had gone CANbus (hence being stuck with shitty radio/nav tech that talks to BSI and disables chunks of the car when it goes out), to the C5/407 derived hardware that's NOT QUITE GOOD ENOUGH for a 2-tonne behemoth.

Good news from the C6 forum (which, like Earth offered to Flash Gordon by Ming, is quieter. Calmer. Satisfied with less, after a period of sustained abuse) in a weird way - other C6s have indeed rusted on the sills, and at least at this stage of their life it's an easy fix with a strip of new steel to replace the dumbass single-skin rebate Citroen left there to support the plastic mudtraps. The bad news, the inevitable news, is that the covers are held on with little plastic clips with the three words that every Peugeot and Citroen owner with a car over ten years old will love to hear...

No Longer Available.

If I had the skill, I would make a Stock, Aitken & Waterman style '80s pop parody of FLM called NLA, where two Citroen owners called Mel and Kim lament the fact that every piece needed to keep their beloved car alive is just not available despite the car itself being in excellent order, faithful transport and inspiring much love for the brand until they realise it's been killed off by death of a thousand missing pieces.

[2flags]

42 minutes ago, RichardK said:

Went to Tesco yesterday and parked next to a Jag XF - came out and the owner was giving the C6 a proper look!

Only after did I realise they were probably trying to work out what kind of Pterodactyl had copiously shit all over the passenger side. No pictures I'm afraid, it was like two birds, one Cit, but worse.

I've ordered a NEW, FROM CITROEN front height sensor. They're different part numbers - and colours - front right is yellow, front left is red, rear ones are blue or green. Part of me was annoyed that the front right wasn't green as that would be easy to remember. I'm optimistic that this will get the front end to settle at heights other than 'let the bumpers hit the floor' and 'workshop 5mph limit'; at the moment you can set normal or 'ew puddles' height for the back correctly but the front won't budge until full height is selected, and then when you drop the height, you can catch the nose mid-fall by choosing lowest, then normal, but it drops eventually.

Diagbox revealed the front right sensor was showing only 0.39v when all the others sit around 2-3V, so I'm fairly sure that's the problem. Of course, there's a chance Citroen Parts Direct might come back and say the part i need is NLA...

If it turns out that I've got left and right mixed up I'll buy a front left sensor as well - they're much easier to find for some reason.

All the parts are 5273 Jn where n denotes a colour of lever and thus, placement on the car, but the sensor seems to be a design commonly used across all kinds of vehicles. I think the placement and colour means the lever is fixed at a different angle. There are third-party parts on AliExpress etc. but I would much rather have this aspect of the car right, given the effort it is to change the buggers, than spend £30 on a pattern unit that may not last as long, may be the wrong spec (did you know that if you fit mismatched EGRs or MAF sensors, the MAF sensors don't balance?!), and will involve getting under the bloody thing AGAIN.

In some ways it feels like the C6 is the ultimate car for hackers to play with, Cyberpunk style - everything is 'generic but somehow forced to be proprietary by Citroen's engineers to make it really fucking hard to maintain it', from it still running the old VANbus architecture when C5s etc. had gone CANbus (hence being stuck with shitty radio/nav tech that talks to BSI and disables chunks of the car when it goes out), to the C5/407 derived hardware that's NOT QUITE GOOD ENOUGH for a 2-tonne behemoth.

Good news from the C6 forum (which, like Earth offered to Flash Gordon by Ming, is quieter. Calmer. Satisfied with less, after a period of sustained abuse) in a weird way - other C6s have indeed rusted on the sills, and at least at this stage of their life it's an easy fix with a strip of new steel to replace the dumbass single-skin rebate Citroen left there to support the plastic mudtraps. The bad news, the inevitable news, is that the covers are held on with little plastic clips with the three words that every Peugeot and Citroen owner with a car over ten years old will love to hear...

No Longer Available.

If I had the skill, I would make a Stock, Aitken & Waterman style '80s pop parody of FLM called NLA, where two Citroen owners called Mel and Kim lament the fact that every piece needed to keep their beloved car alive is just not available despite the car itself being in excellent order, faithful transport and inspiring much love for the brand until they realise it's been killed off by death of a thousand missing pieces.

This seems to me to be an excellent opportunity for someone with a 3D printer, and of course the skill to use it, to start up a business making all the little clips, pins, and small bits that the mainstream producers just cannot be arsed with. Not I have absolutely no idea as to what would be involved in setting something like this up, but if someone was to contact the owners clubs and find out what is no longer available and produce a run of say 100, would this be worth someone's time and effort? 

[RichardK]

10 minutes ago, 2flags said:

This seems to me to be an excellent opportunity for someone with a 3D printer, and of course the skill to use it, to start up a business making all the little clips, pins, and small bits that the mainstream producers just cannot be arsed with. Not I have absolutely no idea as to what would be involved in setting something like this up, but if someone was to contact the owners clubs and find out what is no longer available and produce a run of say 100, would this be worth someone's time and effort? 

Already happening in places - for example, the number plate panel is secured with clips on the lower edge that hold captive spire nut things, and when the boot struts get weak the plastic panel is the first thing you catch to stop it dropping. The result is inevitable - broken plastic, loose clips, flapping panel. Someone's made 3D printed replacement clip sections that clip over and glue in (so are stronger).

But the problem with 3D printed components is that the plastics involved and fibre structure don't always suit the application. SLA printing doesn't create a fibrous structure, but the resin lacks some of the strength and flexibility of ABS plastic, ABS plastic from 3D printers is poor at three-dimensional shear resistance - it'll flex and hold in the direction of the print, but for small clips and pieces it often separates in layers like a veneer falling apart.

There's a stage missing for 3D printed spares that may well have been addressed and I'm not aware of it, since the last time I tried this was probably in 2017 trying to recreate an aerial nut cover for a Citroen DS, Annealing the printed item.

If you can print a clip in ABS plastic and somehow keep the structure while heating it to fuse the layers of the 3D printing process, that would probably work quite well.

The other issue is some forms of 3D printing filament are biodegradable, and won't have the required longevity

In terms of short runs and clubs, the solution is probably Chinese factory, 3D milled injection mould, fingers crossed. But it's more likely that the clips originated in a factory that has the moulds and is still capable of producing small runs, it's just that Stellantis/PSA won't order them. The global nature of car production, however, means there's a good chance that the clip could be known under a different part number or brand and reused in an Asian-market car..

Apparently the height correctors (which are just the same sensors used for self-levelling headlights) live on underneath Chinese-market Citroen C5s and C6s (which aren't anything like C6s in Europe) and also under the current 508 etc.. but probably with the wrong angle of lever, or somesuch. The basic Hella component seems to be shared with Land Rovers, Kias, all kinds of things.

[2flags]

That's a shame. As I say, I know nothing of these, particularly the technical aspects of the plastics used. Hopefully, these things can be overcome, and they can be of use. 

[RichardK]

I was supposed to be helping at a Thai festival this weekend, but having managed to bash my foot twice and got to the stage where 'walking is like having my toes stamped on with every step', I bailed out.

Partly because it would be another weekend where ABSOLUTELY NOTHING GOT DONE and everything kept deteriorating.

So at the moment we're at:

BMW X3 - front suspension rattling, transmission grumbling, turbo screaming (sometimes), sunroof rattling

Citroen C6 - nose-scraping, hill-rolling, parking sensors beeping

PT Cruiser - can't use it because it'll add miles BUT I HAVE A BUYER*. Except I need to get it to them, and I need to fit the front suspension arms

The BMW I'm happy with most of the time but a drive into Nottingham with the absolutely fucked roads there plus M1 insanity meant I reached the end of my tether before the end of the journey - not helped by going to close the sunroof blind to try and mask the rattling, and instead managing to make it open to 'vent' position which is when it jams and makes horrid noises. I think my nerves would be much better if I fixed the front suspension, as it takes a tiny bump to make the whole lot sound like someone's wailing on it with a lump hammer and a lot of small bumps (or 'a road', apparently) is just unbearable, particularly when the sunroof is rattling away overhead too. I swear it makes the centre bearing rumble sound worse too.

I'm painfully aware of every day that passes when I haven't changed the diff and transfer case oils.

The C6 is the easy win, because a new height corrector was delivered. Two bolts, maybe even one bolt, a plug, and a lever. SIMPLES!

Except it's under the front end of a car that you NEVER stick your head under (and on Daigbox it has a new trick since I corrected the LDS levels - you can raise it to full height with the tests, but when you switch the car off it drops to normal with a satisfying hiss. Or TERRIFYING hiss if you're thinking that you might leave it raised, put a support under it, and fix a sensor).

The PT Cruiser I think will be a piece of piss to swap the arms on, because it's like working on a new car, but you have to get both wheels raised otherwise you're fighting the ARB torque when trying to undo the ARB link bolts.

So, I'm going to attempt the C6, by driving it onto some ramps at full height then seeing if I can put a safety support in there. The jacking points aren't a good bet as they're folded.

If you don't hear from me for 48 hours, I cocked up!

*at least, I have someone who really seems to want it. They want to PX a 2005 Volvo V70 auto, but I don't think I want it.

[RichardK]

Scary

The auto box needs revs. This wasn't fun.

But it stayed up

Old

New

Grim

Blinded

Missing bits?

Plastic

Now the voltages are sane, however the car is still being a pig about height adjustment. Maybe it's not sitting as low as I think, as it accepted the programming for reference values fine. I'll see how it drives now it has two working sensors on the front...