Peugeot 405/406 predicament

[The Main]

Dear all,Have kept a pretty low profile on here lately as I've been unfeasibly busy with predictably dull stuff like work. And the recently-purchased A60 estate deciding to practically fall to pieces before my very eyes. Problem is the company I work for is moving about 20 miles further up the road in September, so I won't be able to walk there when the shitter/classic doesn't start. And the A60 needs too much work (and my mate's way too unreliable!) for there to be a cat-in-hell's chance of it being fixed before then. So I need to confiscate my wife's £250-but-trusty Honda Civic for the daily/nightly commute, in return for which I shall have to recompense her with a half decent (but cheapish) motor for ferrying her and our little daughter around in.I've been loooking out for a Peugeot 405 1.9 Diesel estate (preferably with air con) as I've always been impressed with their ability to cover colossal mileages without bankrupting their owners. But the supply of these seems to have dried up somewhat and, although I'd like to hang out for this dream yet modest conveyance, time is getting a bit short.So my question is - should I consider the 405's replacement i.e. the 406? Are they as bullet-proof, as cheap to run and as straightforward to fix? Does anybody on here have an opinion on them (in comparison with the 405 diesel?)? Or should I just buy a Mondeo or something? Much as I'd like to present the missus with a nice early Series 2 Landcrab in Harvest Gold or that lovely shade of maroon, or a Saluki Bronze Corsair 2000E, it really mustn't happen. Not till the Spring, anyway.So any thoughts on the Peugeot situation would be greatly appreciated...

[Milford Cubicle]

406s are just as reliable and a bit better built, but a bit sluggish and not so economical.The problem is that most 405s are pretty shagged now, especially the estates. I've seen a few nice saloons pop up on eBay though, it's just a shame they're not very practical. They don't even have folding rear seats.

[Richard]

In some ways the 406 is better. I think it has coil springs at the back so you don't get the perennial Peugeot problem. Otherwise the earlier ones are much the same as the 405. I haven't tried one but I think it's a bit heavy for the 1.9 engine. The 2.1 and HDi go better but you're sacrificing the simplicity of the XUD9 then.In either case make sure you get a decent one. Peugeots are capable of having hundreds of trivial things wrong that combine to make a huge bill to put them right.

[wuvvum]

I think it's a bit heavy for the 1.9 engine.

It is. Performance of the 1.9 TD 406 is sedate to say the least. It's fine once it's wound up though, so for an A-road / motorway commute one of those would be great - I've been getting 55mpg out of mine on the (gentle) 17-mile run into work. And they are better built than a 405, safer, and IMHO handle just as well - perhaps not quite as agile, but more predictable and just as much fun on back roads. Bloody comfortable too.

[Milford Cubicle]

A genuine 55mpg? I struggle to get much more than high-40s out of my 405, but I do rag it about.I once managed 56mpg, but only by sticking at HGV speedsAlso - what Richard said - I put one thing right and another thing goes wrong. The clutch cable snapped on me today.

[reallyloud]

How about a Citroen ZX estate? They seem to be incredible value at the moment. Despite the efforts of the government, 405's seem to be surviving quite well. Quite attractive cars.

[pogweasel]

What a dilemma!405's obviously have an edge on durability, but finding one that hasn't done 888,000 miles will be tough. I do like the 406's, as they are the last good-looking peugeot, but I have not been able to persuade Er Indoors to see the benefits. I would suggest a Focus wagon, but I am starting to worry about their longevity, for the money you'll spend on a cheap one you'll be buying quite alot of oxide. They do go on and on and on though, our first one is now on about 220k, and mechanically very fit, but the doors are starting to show the brown cancer spread. Latest one is on 143k, and will obviously be alright for 4 or 5 years, but will probably be consumed by tin-worm before any relevant pug will, a shame as they are fine cars. The suggestion of a ZX is worth considering, very nice, plus extra shite points for an NA diesel!Given a free run I'd be going head-to-head with the Nigerian exporters for the UK's last surviving 505 wagon though. If they are good enough for taxi drivers in down-town Lagos, they are good enough for me.

[Milford Cubicle]

405s are great cars - an excellent combination of good comfort and handling, rust-proofing, durability and simple rugged engines (sans ECU for the diesels unlike the 406). I don't know what on earth I'm going to replace mine with if I ever succeed in killing it. Probably a less scruffy one

[The Main]

Cheers for your thoughts, folks. All useful food for thought and much appreciated.So it's either1) Try to find the 'needle in the haystack' one-vicar-owned-from-new 405 diesel estate that hasn't been used for dragging cement around building sites all it's lifeor 2) a well-maintained 406 with all the trimmingsI think I know which will be the easier of the above options, although I'm pretty sure I'll have to pay well into four figures for a decent 406 that hasn't been to the moon and back - even for an older 'P' or 'R' reg example I should think.Might look into the Citroen ZX situation locally - I did wonder about those a little while back. They do seem to be great value, I must agree. Also, I'm thinking maybe an early-ish Xantia diesel, or even another Renault Laguna 2.2 Diesel (the type that went out of production around 2001)? If I can find one that hasn't catapulted pieces of cambelt all over it's top end, that is...

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

406's are fine as long as you avoid the HDi like a rabid Dog. Also look at the old diesel Laguna Estate - again, the early one around 1997/8. They're worth the square root of fuck all and are supposed to be half way reliable.

[AnthonyG]

I would go for a 406 as it a much nicer car to drive. However I think 405s will have the edge in the durability stakes as there still seem to be many 15 year old ones still running about.In Iran you could get a 405 with a 406 front end!

[wuvvum]

405s are great cars - an excellent combination of good comfort and handling, rust-proofing, durability and simple rugged engines (sans ECU for the diesels unlike the 406

According to my sources the earliest 406 diesels were all mechanical too - they only introduced ECUs when they started fitting cats. Mine has a cat and an ECU, but non-cat versions were still available at the time mine was produced.

[Timewaster]

I regularly got 50 mpg from my 405. Ebay'd it last week for a poultry £290.100% reliable but mine was dog rough cosmetically, It may even have been the one used to cart cement bags across a building site mentioned earlier.I looked and looked for a tidy, sub 150k 405TD estate and came to the conclusion thet they no longer exist.I'm not a big fan of the 406, no particular reason but my boat remains unfloated.Are you going to drive enough miles to warrant the extra outlay to get a diesel?I've now spent a distinctly un-autoshite amount of cash on a much newer Octavia estate. Its a bit short on loadspace compared to the 405 but still plenty big enough.Perhaps an early Octavia would suit?

[r.welfare]

Yup, the pre-97 1.9TD 406 doesn't have a cat, or the dreaded EGR, which can cause all manner of problems.The elusive cared-for 405 estate is a desirable motor - I know, I have one! Having said that, my own car (which had two previous owners from new and has every scrap of service history back to the order form, including the fleet company printout for the first 3 yrs/84k) has had a lot of money spent in my ownership (getting on for 18 months and 12k miles now - it's now my sole mode of transport since my 405TD saloon was scrapped due to a kippered HG in April) - radiator, aux belt tensioner, rear brakes and handbrake cable, cambelt and waterpump. That said (touch wood!) it's been reliable and has never let me down. These are the main weak points, mechanically, along with buggered rear radius arms (extreme negative camber is the giveaway) and seized brake proportioning valves, so if you can find evidence of work in these areas already having been done, so much the better. 405s and 406s seem to be the kind of cars that can soldier on for a fair while with minimal servicing, passing MOT's relatively easily, until something big (and expensive) goes wrong. So avoid stuff that's advertised as "running beautifully, mate", but with no recent service history or receipts - these are not Toyotas and therefore will not tolerate abuse or neglect forever!The headgasket is well known as a weakness, of course, but that can afflict any PSA car with the 1.9TD - evidence of regular (2-yearly) coolant changes is good, as is a radiator change every 10 years or 100k. Watch the temperature gauge carefully on a test drive, it shouldn't go above 90C, make sure the rad fans kick in at this level, and also check the heater output is volcanic.Other things - electrics can be iffy, my own car is currently suffering with haunted climate control which can make it blow hot air for no reason; also the A/C in these things is the old R12 gas, for which the eco-friendly replacement is difficult to source, and most will have non-functioning A/C due to condensor or compressor issues anyway - beware anyone who says a simple regas will fix it! I'd not be too precious about working A/C and find one in a light colour with a sunroof instead.My experience of the 406 (saloon) with the 1.9TD is it does struggle - a 2.1TD is the preferred engine on these, although I understand some maintenance jobs are tricky due to the size of the unit. Also, the 406 estate actually has less loadspace than the 405.I really like the 405, and one that has been looked after should be as good a car for the age as you will find. They go well, ride and handle fluently, are economical (although I find 45mpg is the average I get, in mixed use), stylish, supremely comfortable (I rate the seats as better than Saab and Volvo, having owned examples of both!), resist rust and, despite the irritating little faults that sometimes arise, are relatively well built. But a bad one will not be a great ownership experience. If reliability and ease of ownership is your bag, depending on your budget, you might want to consider a Carina E or Avensis estate instead; the petrol engines are (I understand) very economical, and although parts prices are higher they tend to be better-built. Others on this board also rate the Skoda Octavia estate, too.In short, I'd look for the best example (lowest number of owners, most comprehensive service history) for a number of different cars - Mondeo, 405, 406, Carina E/Avensis, Octavia, Laguna (I'd go for a 2.2D or early 1.9 - the 99-on 1.9DTi has a reputation for eating gearboxes) and probably Primera - and buy the best one you find.

[AnthonyG]

I have had experience of several Mk1/Mk2 Mondeos and find them to be very good buys, I've just had petrol hatches mind.Things to watch out for include:Clutches - this is an expensive operation which requires either the subframe or the engine removing, so don't buy anything with a clutch on the way out.Front Lower wishbones - this is a common thing as they wear out fairly quickly and it's a bugger of a job unless the car's on a lift. Try and get the front up on a jack and have a tug of the wheel. But not a dealbreaker, unlike the clutch. Rust - particularly on Mk2s (oval grille and larger front/rear lights) - check the bottom of the sill all along the bottom edge, and the rear wheelarch area. It can start virtually unoticed along the bottom edge of the sill and creep up until you've got a major derust and repaint operation on your hands. Also avoid anything with filler in the sill/door shut/rear wheelarch & rear wing areas. MK1s are more rust resistant for some reason. Bumpers, especially on MK2s are as bad as Montegos for cracking at the lightest touch. Cheap pattern ones are available - painting them a Ford colour is the cost. Undamaged s/h ones will be more common now at yards due to the scrappage scheme.Avoid 1600s as they are fairly gutless. 1800 and 2000 petrols are fine, V6s have little advantage over the 2 litre and are tricky to work on, so I wouldn't bother with them either. Diesels (all 1800's) are fairly rough and basic and not as good as Pug engines but I know several that have done mega miles and still going strong.They were all built in Genk, Belgium and used parts made in Western Europe, so are more reliable than many later cars. Build quality was good for a Ford and miles better than a Ka, Fiesta or Escort.They are cheap enough so you can afford to get a good one. Unfortunately it seems that many pretty good ones are getting scrappaged, but there are still plenty about (the last ones registered in 99 and 00 - V to X- are ineligable anyway and these have the best spec).

[carlo]

Some very good points here and I agree with most of it. I replaced my 405s (petrols) with a 406 a couple of months ago and still can't decide which I prefer. The 405 is just as comfortable, less complicated, faster and a quicker handler, but the 406 is just so refined and quiet it feels like a car two classes up. Funnily enough it reminds me of the old fuel injected 504s, just so isolated from the road, and so smooth (and very much a Peugeot.) Unfortunately at the end of the day the 405 was more fun, but keeping 14 year old cars on the road just gets harder every year.Having posted a few times on the 406 forum the verdict seems to be that D9 406s (1999-2004) drive a bit better but are far more complex and expensive to repair than D8 (1996-1999) ones. Just love Peugeots, me; whenever I go for other cars I keep coming back to them in the end.

[The Main]

Gentlemen, huge thanks to you all for taking the time to offer such in-depth advice. R.Welfare and Carlo, I shall definitely bear in mind your comments on the complexity of later 406's and will restrict my Peugeot search to 405's and early 406's. Which is attractive as I'm sure the older examples would be cheaper anyway - just need to find a good one.Anthony that's a damn fine assessment of the Mondeo market for my money and greatly appreciated. How juicy are those 2-litre petrols then? I'm quite tempted actually as they're clearly a lot more refined than the diesels...Hadn't even considered the possibility of a Carina/Avensis as they srike me as a bit dullsville, ditto the Octavia. But I shall re-evaluate. Build quality on those Skodas seems very good - my mate bought a Fellacio ages ago and he hasn't looked back.Laguna 2.2D's and older Xantias look like spectacular value for money but again its a case of finding a loved one. Hmmm...shall have to see what's out there for around £1,500 I think. I dread to think of how many mint examples of the above must have been scrappaged lately. But that's not healthy, so let's think positive.Still, should be able to find something tidy enough to keep everyone happy, I'm hoping.Now I'll just have to try and avoid looking at XM's when searching for Citroens on ebay. They are giving me the right horn.

[r.welfare]

The best 405 estate in the world shouldn't be more than £800 despite what the dealer jokers have on classified ads well into four-figure territory on eBay. An absolutely cracking red GLX TD, with 2 owners, 120k and £2k recently spent in all the "right" areas, sold for £642 a couple of weeks ago. Local (nr. Bracknell) too.

[AnthonyG]

Mileage out of a 2 litre petrol should be well over 35mpg, depending on how you drive it. To be perfecty honest a 1.8 petrol is fine for everyday driving.P.S. £1500 should get you a very, very good Mk2. In fact for that you could get a perfectly good early Mk3 (the 2000-2007 ones) petrol hatch, not sure about estates or diesels though. Mk3's have the new generation 'TDCI' diesels and are a lot more refined.That's the one Mondeo generation I have never driven or owned, but a search on the net should get some info. Honest John is pretty good.

[Pete-M]

P.S. £1500 should get you a very, very good Mk2. In fact for that you could get a perfectly good early Mk3 (the 2000-2007 ones) petrol hatch, not sure about estates or diesels though. Mk3's have the new generation 'TDCI' diesels and are a lot more refined.

I rate Mondeo Mk3's massively. Think they're brilliant. However, the estate is the one to go for as it won't suffer from the rear subframe bushes needing replacement far too often - as it doesn't have 'em.TDDi Mk3s aren't as 'orrible as their reputation suggests, I used one for a few weeks a year or so ago and thought it was a nice enough thing. If it had been a bit cheaper I may well have kept it. TDCis go better but suffer from modern diesel syndrome - great on fuel but all the bits that break cost a friggin' fortune.405s / 406s are nice cars, but they feel ancient compared to a good Mondeo.

[The Main]

Marvellous stuff, thanks fellas.R.Welfare - you're right, I'd noticed prices for the (admittedly rare) nicest 405 estates were fluctuating a bit recently. Trouble is, now I'm actually looking for one I can't find any for sale at all. But I'll keep in mind your comments and will try to avoid paying over the odds if one turns up. Gutted about the bargain one in Bracknell - that would have been a result and no mistake.One question - the venerable ReveredBlueJeans has said on here that 406's are fine as long as one avoids the HDi like a rabid dog. Any particular reason for this, my good man? Not for a second am I doubting your advice/experience on this topic, but would like to know the main reason for giving them a wide berth. I keep finding a lot of 406 HDi's for sale with 250K-plus on the clock, so am I missing something regarding their reliability/longevity? Are they really that bad? all the earlier 406's i'm coming across are either at the other end of the country or have been to the moon and back. And my daughter wants a red one, which doesn't help.Pete-M/Anthony G - from what you've said, a later Mondeo sounds like the (hopefully) low-hassle route to go down. Reliable, lots about, not particularly sought-after and a nice drive. Very tempting, especially as time is starting to slip away a bit now....Cheers all - I'll try and get some up of pictures of the 'interesting' shite in the Main collection....A60 Cambridge estate, A60 saloon (before it goes to it's new owner), the early XJ6 which I'm ashamed to admit has now been standing outside for 18 months (and in that choice shade of shite brown too, or Sable as Mr Lyons preferred it to be known). Plus the 1964 Volvo P1800S I bought 'as a project' 3 years ago but which I still haven't yet dared touch.

[pogweasel]

In my experience, HDi's are OK, but just not very nice and not hugely reliable either. Had 2, one in a nearly new Berlingo and one in our departed Picasso, rattly and coarse the both, with woeful economy at upper motorway speed. Both were plagued with niggly electrical maladies that whilst not the end of the world were a pain in the ass. A turdo dizzler is about maximum economy and stresslessness with adequate if not exciting performance.... which that lump just doesn't supply. Hence we are now back to tractor-spec Ford TDDI power for family fare, on the basis that it will run for 8 million years with zero maintanance (though being a ford it will be eaten by rust 7,999,988 years before that happens).

[Futuramic]

On the Carina E front don't discount them, I had one as a courtesy car for a couple of days and loved it. 'Twas a saloon in rough old condition; effectively a dog, but everything worked. It was the hack car for a back street fuel injection specialist - so if cars had a life story like people then this thing would have been a heroin addicted prossie with no home and the clap. It had been that badly treated.However everything worked. I mean everything, down to the dashboard lights and the radio.The engine was marvelous, I think it was a 1.8; but it had 16 valves and gave a nice dollop of acceleration when requested. Revved beautifully too. Unlike most Japanes cars it also had a sweet gearchange and good brakes. The steering was totally devoid of feedback and over-assisted; but you can't have everything.Handling was tidy, if wallowy, but was made up for by the fair drag off the engine. Bodywork wise there were no issues whatsoever, not a speck of rust, and the thing felt totally solid. It was even well equipped. It was mid 90s era M to P reg (I can't remember exactly) and can't have been worth more than £150 on a good day. I'd thoroughly reccomend one on the basis that the slight increase in fuel consumption will be overly compensated for by the overall quality of the package.Boot space was useless, but there were different body styles about, which I have had no experience of. Plus it's a petrol so you get a much nicer experience in general.

[Rocket88]

As a general rule, if you want longevity, good mpg, comfort, and reliability, check out what reputable cab companies are using. Their livelihood depends on most of the above. Octavia tdi's [first generation] seem to be the weapon of choice over here, as they seem to be the only diesesel you can get as an auto where the gearbox will last over 100,000 miles. 50+ mpg, comfortable, simple, very well built.

[retrogeezer]

Just to add that my Mk2 Mondeo Ghia is a very impressive drive. Much nicer than I ever expected them to be. Did 400 miles without a stop down to Cornwall last year and got out with no backpain!We did 450 miles in it last week and I still have a 1/4 of the 60litre tank left according to the guage so fuel consumption on a run is good as that is over 40 to the gallon and it was loaded up with stuff for a week away for me, the better half and our 6 yr old.It's very quite and refined to drive, far nicer than a 13 year old car should be.It was a one owner car with full history though and I knew the previous owner - I guess you have to look for a good one. The later run-out (I think) Zetec model looks nice too.Oh, and watch out for broken front springs as these are common and the rear droplinks are also a common problem, both cheap fixes though.

[retrogeezer]

Oh, a good Audi 80 TDi would be a great alternative, quite sought after though.

[r.welfare]

Personally I would rate The Main as a proper hero if he bought this:

 

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/01-PUG-PEUGEOT-406-ESTATE-STATION-WAGON-V6-SILVER_W0QQitemZ320414108312

 

Which ain't going to be that economical, but sure is a sleeper. I know that other 200+bhp estates are available, but none of 'em look quite so much like a minicab as this.

 

As you were.

[The Main]

Cheers gents, finding a boring daily runner is turning out to be quite interesting!Carinas sound unbreakable to be fair, as do Mondeos, so cheers for all the info on those. Not many decent estate versions about at the moment at the 'right' money though. But I'm sure there will be soon!Pog - I'll definitely give the HDi a swerve - can't see the point in spunking more hard-earned on a worse (if newer) model than the earlier 406 diesels. Trouble is, I can't find any pre-99 406 estates in decent shape. Pesky scrappage scheme.R.Welfare - much as I would like to inspire generations of V6 minicab drivers, I have been politely but firmly informed by the chief decision-maker at Main Towers that the likelyhood of my achieving such heady status is somewhere between zero and the square root of fuck all. But it was a nice idea, so thank you for that anyway!Been offered a 1999 2.0 petrol Xantia estate with 75K on the clock for £995. Haven't been to see it yet, and it only has a shortish MoT but I have a strong hunch it's a very tidy car being sold through necessity by a genuine bloke. Decent service history and well looked after, I'm told. I really don't know much about the model's weak points or reliability/running costs/juicyness, but I'm very tempted to go and see it anyway at that price (it's very local). Anyone know anything about them?

[Volksy]

Xantias seem to be pretty reliable, similar, if not the same running gear as a 405/6 but with the hydro suspension. so much the same applies. The main fault I came across was the height correctors seizing leading to a tail up dragster stance. Just make sure that it has been serviced properly, Hydro fluid is clean etc. Mega cheap as well.

[Pete-M]

I quite like Xantias.I also like that 406 V6 Estate. I think I'll keep running the Audi for a while yet though, I'm determined to get it over 200,000 miles. Only 14k to go.