invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[doug]

I am kind of local to Darvel if you want any help.

Also spotted this in the background of an advert in Cupar in Fife, is it on your list?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/robinreliant/

Scroll down to 27 October.

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, doug said:

I am kind of local to Darvel if you want any help.

Also spotted this in the background of an advert in Cupar in Fife, is it on your list?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/robinreliant/

Scroll down to 27 October.

Ah awesome good to know  its not a high priority thing, but it would be neat to get some more photos and have a rumage around see if we can figure out what it was

and if anything can be salvaged from it!

(the Model 70/67 stuck in a bush in pembrokeshire and the Mk12 I found somewhere on facebook that @egg is chasing up are higher priorities as they are actually complete!)

 

as for the photo thanks for the heads up

Scott milne is a microcar collector and has a number of invalid vehicles including a few Model 70's I have been trying to ID his unknown Model 70's for a good few months now but he said he was abroad, however seeing the advert I messaged him just now asking if he is back in the UK, hopefully he is and I can finally ID his unknown Model 70's for my records and so he knows what he has!

(of known Model 70's he owns LNO970P RPU821R and TTW991R, and then a couple unknown Model 70's including 1 Leg)

[LightBulbFun]

nope sadly he is not back in scotland yet, he just had the photos on his phone and stuck em up to gauge interest...

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, coalnotdole said:

focusing on this specifically,

from speaking with Stuart, we think it might not actually be an invalid vehicle, but maybe either a Bond Minicar or some sort of 1960s caravan

as most fibreglass invalid vehicles had coil overs yo! as seen in this stripped Mk12 picture bellow, without a separate shock absorber which you can see in the above pic

 

[egg]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

(the Model 70/67 stuck in a bush in pembrokeshire and the Mk12 I found somewhere on facebook that @egg is chasing up are higher priorities as they are actually complete!)

yeah, no further news on that one. Will chase again in a week or two, but clearly it's another slow burner.

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, egg said:

yeah, no further news on that one. Will chase again in a week or two, but clearly it's another slow burner.

yeah I was going through your Mk12 thread earlier and was wondering how that one was doing  

 

(side got shared some pics of a stripped tippen Delta 2 which show a separate shock, but waiting permission to share the picture first)

[Eyersey1234]

5 hours ago, doug said:

I am kind of local to Darvel if you want any help.

Also spotted this in the background of an advert in Cupar in Fife, is it on your list?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/robinreliant/

Scroll down to 27 October.

Looks a bit like a Reliant Robin 

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Looks a bit like a Reliant Robin 

the brown thing? because that is a Reliant!  a very early one mind

also "groups/robinreliant/" you had 1 job!

[LightBulbFun]

19 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

(side got shared some pics of a stripped tippen Delta 2 which show a separate shock, but waiting permission to share the picture first)

got permission to share the pics!

its what's left of a Poor Tippen Delta 2 that cropped up on ebay a few years ago

you can see the separate shock absorber in this picture but i don't think it matches the remains in the rubble still?

 

 

and I also got a couple more pictures of Model 70's going round the track in 1990 during the charity event, apparently it was for a children's charity hence the Model 70's being done up with cartoonish designs etc

"welcome to the danger zone!" 

 

and for completeness sake here is the shark one again

 

these are pics that Stuart managed to find over the years on the internet, and just to clarify he was about 10 when this event took place so dont worry he didn't race any he was just happened to be an observer!

he says indeed the event took place at Standlake Arena near Oxford, after the main lot of 12-15 went round, it was then just singular invacars afterwards, and he recalls the last going round the track in 1994, but all 3 pics are from that same day in 1990

Poor Model 70's!

I do wonder if there was ever any fighting over a Specific control scheme layout or such, I cant imagine the single handed tiller would of been particularly popular among the racers!

[Mr Pastry]

I think the shock absorber on the Tippen is actually a coilover with a casing around the spring - certainly doesn't match the remains in the earlier pictures.  All of which looks a bit too heavyweight (and in some parts home built) to be a Villiers powered invalid car.  It doesn't look much like Bond or Berkeley, and it is possibly not a powered vehicle at all.  It would be interesting to see more of it though.  FWIW I think the brakes are Lockheed.

[Mally]

I owned one of those Reliant Regals when I was 16/17.

Drove it on a bike licence, 850cc side valve engine.

[LightBulbFun]

26 minutes ago, Mally said:

I owned one of those Reliant Regals when I was 16/17.

Drove it on a bike licence, 850cc side valve engine.

indeed I remember you posting about your reliant and was wondering if that brown one was of the same type since it has a canvas roof like you described yours having  

 

On 9/5/2019 at 11:28 AM, LightBulbFun said:

so I do wonder if when that user handbook was written, if the Tiller control option was just not an option/thing at that point in time? ie was it still in development, or was it not initially planned, but only added towards the start of production?

say if someone in the User trials complained "id like a 1 handed control layout please!" so they only added it later on?

bringing this back up as me and stuart did a bit more research on this, and indeed it looks like the tiller control option was only made an option later on in the Model 70's development cycle, after the User trial cars

most of the Tiller control stuff is dated to December 1970, which is good while after the user trial cars, and another thing to further the theory is this shot of the controls from the workshop manual 

the Steering wheel and handlebar controls show a version of the dash that never made it into production AFAIK (note the little egg shaped indents on the dash where the hand brake goes, iv never seen a production Model 70 with that)

where as the tiller control is of a production dash im pretty sure

and on the first 2 the gear shift label is 3 separate stickers where as on the tiller control one its 1 sticker

and indeed the RNF sticker was not finalized until october 1970 where we suspect it became 1 sticker

so I suspect the first 2 pics are of user trial cars where as the tiller is of a later car, which explains why the drivers handbook for the Model 70 does not have a tiller page, since I guess it was first printed/produced for the people taking part in the user trials,

although im a bit surprised they never updated it with the tiller option/ for when the Model 70 entered production

one thing I have wondered is where there any prototype Model 70's produced between The user Trial cars of July 1970 and the First production cars of June/July 1971

 

(side note for those who don't know, if you ever see a quote and want to find the post that quote originated from, on the to pright corner of the quote there will normally be a little arrow button, if you click it, it will take you to the post the quote is from )

[Eyersey1234]

@LightBulbFun How many invalid cars were built with tillers as opposed to steering wheels? 

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

@LightBulbFun How many invalid cars were built with tillers as opposed to steering wheels? 

sadly production figures like that are not known, plus one vehicle may have left as one control scheme, but been changed at one point in time or not

but Handlebars was the most common, the factory default so to speak, followed by Tiller, and then the rarest being steering wheel I think, and then of course with each set of controls they have their own subset of controls

ie you can have tiller left or right hand, with or without foot pedals for throttle brake and parking brake and the same sort of thing for steering wheel, I have seen Model 70's with as many as 4 foot pedals!, and I have even heard a story about a Model 70 being adapted to be driven by someones 1 good foot!

its stuff like this that ensure that no 2 Model 70 is identical! (funnily enough I have never seen a handlebar Model 70 with foot pedals)

but both and tiller and steering wheel these days are about the same rareness I think, although sadly Fraser has converted VES108S from tiller steering to handlebars, despite the fact he just plans to sell it, I could understand changing it from Tiller to handlebars if you were going to use it regularly to make it easier to drive for someone able bodied, but if your just going to end up selling it, then I would of left it stock  especially given how rare they are compared to normal handlebars and especially as VES is the newest known surviving english Invacar, so its not one id want to see messed with but alas!

(although funnily enough before he sold it, he converted JPA268N from handle bars to steering wheel with foot pedals, and keeps asking me if Dolly is up for sale because he wants another steering wheel Model 70! and he said if he could convert VES to steering wheel he would keep it, but Im not sure how much to believe that!)

if you check out my survivors list on page 24, you can see which machines have unusual controls as I have noted them  

 

I have often wondered what control scheme REV started life out as, she was described as a foot control trike in Marions letter to stuart in 2006, that Dennis converted to handle bars in 1985 when got REV

But I wonder what sort of foot controls exactly! the only clue i have is a "bald" patch on the floor with a couple screws holes in it, but that does not line up with any known pedal box or such (the Pedals on a Model 70 hang down from the bulkhead normally)

so I wonder if REV originally had some sort of foot controlled steering or something?

[Eyersey1234]

Thanks LBF. 

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, Eyersey1234 said:

Thanks LBF. 

 figured I should also give some examples so here's some examples!

LPL837P, pretty sure this one is foot parking brake (one pedal to set it one to release it), and then hand throttle

UPF516M, I think this one is just foot hand brake with hand throttle/brake, but I do wonder what that button on the left on the floor is for, screen wash?

and then finally VES108S with right hand tiller, and no foot controls, but with a little footrest type thing, stuart wondered if the holes in REVs floor was from one of these, but I dont think it quite lines up, and dont think  so also because REV was a foot controlled car and I dont think you could have both a foot rest and pedals!

GPG721K, steering wheel with normal foot throttle/hand controls (and seemingly no parking brake!)

and then smaller then normal steering wheel (12 inch one?) with 4! foot pedals, I think parking brake with throttle/brake, and bonus extended steering column/gear change to

 

and finally on Dolly steering wheel (of smaller then normal size, 13.5 inch?) with hand throttle and brake and floor but hand operated hand brake, and dash mounted heater/choke controls (I imagine because the slide over cushion/seat is where they normally go in a Mark B )

 

as mentioned most handlebar setups tend to be fairly "normal" but you can still find things like a flipped dash like in TWC

 

(the hole under the light, is where the gear change would gone originally, but eventually, I think with the Mark B they moved to a floor gear change, then had an active policy of retrofitting earlier cars with a floor change, making dash change Model 70's very rare, I only know of 2 still equipped such, KPK888K and NOO738M)

[LightBulbFun]

so had my 13th driving lesson today, new car day! as previously mentioned my instructor was involved in an accident between lessons, so he has been issued another car (and I assume the pug 308 will be repaired and issued to someone else in time)

so new car is a Pug 208 (as they did not have any 308's in stock)

its an interesting thing to drive, (although to be fair I currently find every car I drive interesting being new to this driving malarky!) its a lot more "manual" feeling then the pug 308, and it has a real hand brake! steering is lighter and its quite darty and you feel the road more, although the gear shift is not as slick was it was in the 308

ergonomics im not sure about, it initially felt better then the 308, but the brake/throttle pedal feel like they are almost on top of each other, and aside from my usual car related pains, I noticed after getting out that my right side was all painful, I suspect some more adjustment of the seat and what have you may need to be had, happy to report tho the sun visor works much better for me in it then it does in the 308 LOL

driving lesson wise, things went pretty well, getting the hang of pulling into a parking bay, and obviously we did more around town driving etc

although this lesson was a little bit nervous for me at first as it involved getting to know the new car how everything feels/reacts and you also have to find markers for yourself again all on the fly

the Pug 208 is smaller then the 308 tho which helps with that and stuff, and all in all it went well and I was getting the hang of the new car by the end of it

next lesson is scheduled for monday IIRC

[LightBulbFun]

continuing the prototype Model 70 and Model 67 research,  I was studying the picture of Model 70 Prototype number 5 closely and I noticed that it did not have a raised section on the nose for the number plate (the plate instead just curving round the front)

and I was pretty sure that Model 67's even the Mk14's have that feature 

and so I checked the closest picture i had on hand and that was the picture of a Model 67 in stuarts small book, which in turn came from the owners manual for the Model 67, and I noticed it too does not have the raised section

so I checked the picture of RPA509E and low and behold it does have the raised bit as I thought the Mk14 did

now sadly the picture in stuarts small book, is not quite clear enough for me to make out the full reg, but I saw that it was "716E" so could not be a RPA car since that block is RPA451E-RPA550E, and so a few days ago (before I noticed the number plate thing, I had him dig it out as I was just curious what the registration was) stuart dug out the original handbooks and thankfully the number was a bit clearer and he could see the reg number was PPD716E

which is very interesting, as this number predates RPA-E which until now was the oldest known Mk14 reg number, however its worth noting that PPD708E is a Morris and the next to show up after that is PPD718E which is a Honda, so clearly PPD716E was not part of a full block or such

so I highly suspect that PPD716E was a pre-production Model 67 used in the handbook so it would be ready by the time full production/issuing commenced, especially given the lack of raised number plate section, which must of been added just before the Model 67 went into production, or been added very early on

this does mean that the Model 67 does pre date Model 70 Prototype 5 (as its reg is PPL-E) although I do still wonder if the Model 67's body was destined for the Model 70 from the get go, with the Model 67 just being a stop gap, certainly Model 70 Prototyping was well under way before even the Model 67 went into production

sadly what Prototype Model 70's 1 to 4 looked like is not entirely known, we not sure if they even had bodies or not

[LightBulbFun]

On 7/7/2019 at 9:28 PM, busmansholiday said:

Sounds like a Bedford TK truck is the interloper.

just noticed that MHJ54P comes back as a single decker bus for body type, so I dont think its a bedford TK! (its full colour comes back as blue and white for what thats worth)

seeing as its supposedly a bus I was hoping I could find a picture of it, but the only referance I can find of it online is in this list here http://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/index.htm?http://www.buslistsontheweb.co.uk/list.asp?listname=175&Type=Body

still wondering how it ended up in the middle of a block of Invacars!

[LightBulbFun]

On 3/28/2019 at 8:23 AM, LightBulbFun said:

UPB421M is a Jenson?!

 

and while im digging up the past, I did run this one a couple weeks ago

can confirm that this one is Actually an AC Model 70, that somehow got DVLAed into a Jenson...

(chassis No checks out and body type returns invalid vehicle)

 

 

(side note sure if I mentioned it here, but looks like the Mk12 on CC has finally sold a couple weeks ago, will have to email the seller and see if I can find out who it sold to!)

[overrun]

On 12/6/2019 at 11:46 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Tippen Delta 2

 

 

Looking at these images of the chassis construction, I wonder if the Tippen Delta was specifically chosen for battery conversion due to the obviously beefy chassis, when compared to Mk12, Model67/70 and the like.

 

[LightBulbFun]

15 minutes ago, overrun said:

Looking at these images of the chassis construction, I wonder if the Tippen Delta was specifically chosen for battery conversion due to the obviously beefy chassis, when compared to Mk12, Model67/70 and the like.

if your referring to the Miller conversion tippen Deltas, well that's because Tippen Delta had been making electric tippen deltas beforehand

so it was relatively easy to convert existing surplus petrol ones to electric   (or are you referring to the original electric tippen detlas?)

 

(as a side note, the Model 70 has a much beefier chassis then a Tippen delta, and the Model 67 and Model 70 chassis are completely different!)

[Mrs6C]

Other themes to cover in the 'compare and constrast' analysis of the Model 70 survivors (whether still 'in a field' or heading for restoration) would be the colour of the seats, also their design and the configuration of them with other things like extensions, along with any modifications. There are some differences that we have seen already.

Colour & design: seats are vinyl and most seem to be a nice Royal Blue colour. Dolly has grey seats and I can see from the examples above that VES108S does too. The seat on LPL837P is maroon. What others are out there and which of the survivors have what? Is it just colour or were the different coloured seats perhaps from different suppliers and possibly of a different design? Could a person choose the colour of their seat? Sir or Madam received the Ice Blue paintwork regardless, but was there a tad of choice for the seat colour?

Configuration: Dolly has the handbrake and release mechanism to the left and the extra padded 'seat extension' (a chipboard box with padded vinyl covering!) to the right, so it would make sense for the seat not to need to move.

Modifications: on Dolly the lever for the latch that locks the seat in place and prevents it from moving sideways has been modified, to disallow the lever to operate. Essentailly the lever arm has been sawn off both sides! Extra bolts have also been put into the guide track for the seat slider also, which act as pins to stop lateral movement beyond a certain point. Why actually lock it out of use? Was it to avoid the operator trapping their hand against the handbrake lever if the seat moved leftwards or to stop them knocking away the 'seat extension' (it was bolted to the floor by 3 or 4 small 'L' brackets) with the seat?

What other seat combinations are there?

 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Colour & design: seats are vinyl and most seem to be a nice Royal Blue colour. Dolly has grey seats and I can see from the examples above that VES108S does too. The seat on LPL837P is maroon. What others are out there and which of the survivors have what? Is it just colour or were the different coloured seats perhaps from different suppliers and possibly of a different design? Could a person choose the colour of their seat? Sir or Madam received the Ice Blue paintwork regardless, but was there a tad of choice for the seat colour?

 

I actually spoke to stuart about this a back in august  

we think the colour differences where just down to suppliers and the such like as you say

checking the spare parts manual only lists the seat base/backrest etc once, so I don't think there was any specific choice in colour

(nor does the colour mean anything, I did wonder if it was like some sort of hard/softness thing, but doesnt look like it)

stuart said he remembers seeing black trimmed seats as well

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

Configuration: Dolly has the handbrake and release mechanism to the left and the extra padded 'seat extension' (a chipboard box with padded vinyl covering!) to the right, so it would make sense for the seat not to need to move.

Modifications: on Dolly the lever for the latch that locks the seat in place and prevents it from moving sideways has been modified, to disallow the lever to operate. Essentailly the lever arm has been sawn off both sides! Extra bolts have also been put into the guide track for the seat slider also, which act as pins to stop lateral movement beyond a certain point. Why actually lock it out of use? Was it to avoid the operator trapping their hand against the handbrake lever if the seat moved leftwards or to stop them knocking away the 'seat extension' (it was bolted to the floor by 3 or 4 small 'L' brackets) with the seat?

What other seat combinations are there?

most controls of the Model 70 could be had on the right or left hand side of the vehicle to suit the user,

indeed I suspect the seat had its sliding capabilities disabled because it was, blocked in from both ends, you wouldn't want it accidently becoming disengaged and smashing into something!

even on Model 70's with a slide over seat, usually the other side was still free, so I imagine they would still have sliding seats, although I have not seen one up close in detail to tell sadly,

Dolly is unusual that on one side she has the slide over seat and on the other side she has the floor mounted parking brake, (which also means she cant stow a wheelchair at all)

(she also has dash mounted heater/choke controls which I have not seen in any other Model 70 and is not something listed in the parts manual)

stuart did mention, that most non handlebar Model 70's tend to have other modifications etc, as if you require special main controls, special auxiliary controls and the such like sort of come with the territory so to speak, which makes sense when ya think about it

as mentioned before, Dolly's cabin layout is most unusual  

1 hour ago, Mrs6C said:

What other seat combinations are there?

 

aside from what's already been mentioned, the only other different seats modifications in Model 70's I can think of are

1 Model 70 stuart recalls where the heater/choke controls where mounted to the seat itself so moved with the seat as it was slid around

and Derry preston cob's Model 70 where stuart suspects the seat slid all the way out on the car, as he recalls reading that derry to be loaded and unloaded from his Model 70 via forklift! 

(the Invacar new era, (which is the Model of Invacar Derry is most commonly pictured with) was special in that it could be driven/operated directly from the wheelchair, no other invalid trike before or after had that capability, I suspect this capability is why Derry kept using his rather then move to newer models) 

and obviously Model 70 Prototype 5 had a bench seat for 2  

and its interesting to note that Dolly's slide over thingy is a box rather then a metal frame affair they normally are

(im not actually sure what the official name for the slide over/seat extension is, but STY534 is listed as "distance piece" I wonder if this is it?)

[Braddon81]

Not sure if this car is known to you, it was spotted on a Microcar rally out in Thailand. ☺️.  Picture Courtesy of Facebook. 

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Braddon81 said:

Not sure if this car is known to you, it was spotted on a Microcar rally out in Thailand. ☺️.  Picture Courtesy of Facebook. 

haha very cool  indeed im aware of that Model 70, But I still enjoy seeing new photos of known survivors  so I appricate the heads up/you posting it here for me!

MVW446P, Stuart Cyphus's first Model 70  

now with the Jesada Technik Museum, in Thailand

its very cool to see it out and about still and it runs etc 

I have been told the museum have a number of other Invalid vehicles, that id love to find detailed photos of, but the only invalid vehicle I have seen in the many pictures of the museums collection is MVW446P, so im still trying to figure out whats going on there

I wonder if @Conan was out and about when it took place? I can imagine the bewilderment as a Model 70 zooms past at a junction or something

[Conan]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

haha very cool  indeed im aware of that Model 70, But I still enjoy seeing new photos of known survivors  so I appricate the heads up/you posting it here for me!

MVW446P, Stuart Cyphus's first Model 70  

now with the Jesada Technik Museum, in Thailand

its very cool to see it out and about still and it runs etc 

I have been told the museum have a number of other Invalid vehicles, that id love to find detailed photos of, but the only invalid vehicle I have seen in the many pictures of the museums collection is MVW446P, so im still trying to figure out whats going on there

I wonder if @Conan was out and about when it took place? I can imagine the bewilderment as a Model 70 zooms past at a junction or something

Sorry, I've been too busy to go anywhere lately. I didn't know the parade was going on either.

 

Hopefully I can make a visit before the end of the year.

[LightBulbFun]

20 minutes ago, Nicola H said:

i'm in the last year or two of  old enough gits to have got  B+E, C1 and D1  for 'free' 

im just hoping to get my licence before they inevitably introduce more restrictions on what new drivers can and cant do!

 

6 minutes ago, Conan said:

Sorry, I've been too busy to go anywhere lately. I didn't know the parade was going on either.

 

Hopefully I can make a visit before the end of the year.

its much appreciated  , im just happy I do got someone in thailand willing to have a look for me at all! 

"so what brings you here to our museum good sir?"

"Oh some random bloke on the internet obsessed about invalid vehicles in another country sent me here to inspect your invalid vehicles for his research"

[LightBulbFun]

11 minutes ago, Conan said:

I didn't know the parade was going on either.

I am curious the legality of it, given the extreme difficulty you mentioned when it comes to registering/importing foreign cars over there

I wonder if they figured out how to road registire that Invacar Model 70 over there?  

or do you think they where just winging it and hoping no copper having a bad day interfered? LOL

[Conan]

Legally speaking, of course it's illegal to drive those things on the road. But considering it's the only place around with cars such as these let's just say they have an unofficial permit. I mean, even the police wouldn't want to interfere with a parade with such good will. (Influential owner or not). As it's a special event by the look of it. They've been doing it for years too.

 

If you're average joe then you wouldn't daily an unregistered Invacar around here.