Old cars in accidents

[fiatdaft]

i think there is one major point we have never touched on,cars themselves are not dangerous,well not until you add humans into the mix anyway !

[chester drawers]

It’s impossible not to feel terrifically smug about this:

 

 

Junction incorporating tight bend just out of shot. Factor in damp tarmac and rear wheel drive and it’s not too difficult to work out what’s gone on. I bought the telegraph pole a pint to show my appreciation

 

Boxster - gr8 4 lookin a tw@ n

[fotorabia]

ALL WAYS WEAR YOUR SEATBELT was my fathers motto...however..after a paternal visit i had with him age 11 in 1978 Australia..he and his pride and joy Corolla KE30 came to a hypocritical end.He was an architect in Sydney..and a after a full weeks-days work he jumps in the brown turd and attempted to drive 600kms thru the night.On actually arriving on his friends vast property..he was taking one of their farm roads and fell asleep at the wheel...whilst going thru a dry ford....head on into a giant flat rock and flipped the Toyo onto its roof...bringing the roof down on the left hand side and crushing his architects arm in the wreckage.He d broken all his fingers on his right hand and couldnt undo his safety belt..so hung upside down for 4 hrs before he was found by a farmhand.In that time all he could think off was blocked circulation and gangrene.He made a full recovery.His friend posted a photograph of the Corolla to us in Scotland..it was severely mashed!

[Justin Case]

Surely a big factor is the 'lesser' accident. Nothing will save you in the massive one, but in the more typical shunt it might well be the difference between a broken ankle and a bruised foot. At the end of the day, it is the same with all these H&S things, the risk is a combination of what might conceivably happen and the likelihood that it actually will. Look at it that way and you can not only make a sensible choice, but perhaps even cheer yourself up too .

[Negative Creep]

I dread to think what would happen to the Datsun in an accident. Still, you only live once and could be killed crossing the street so I don't worry about it too much. I honestly think that this safety obsession is making driving worse, as people tihnk their 20 airbags, esp, abs, ebd etc will get them out of trouble so it's fine to do 90mph on a soaking wet motorway

[ashmicro]

I agree with pretty much all of what has been said here - good sense.What struck a particular chord was the "watch other morons at junctions" post.In 1991, I was riding a large motorbike when a tw@t driving a taxi pulled out in front of me. I hit the car hard (diesel mk4 Orion), took the sign off the roof with my feet and landed on my head.While I couldn't have seen this coming, as Dolly said, anticipation is the name of the game. You cannot take away people's right to be assholes.A stupid woman in an Audi-thing (A6 estate or Avant or whatever) pulled out in front of me when I was driving my first RR Sport, and I bashed the Kraut-mobile about 15 yards up the road.After extricating myself from eleventymillion airbags, I got out and expressed my displeasure.She genuinely thought it was no big deal "Sure you're OK, we can get new cars"Wish I'd hit her in my Uncle's mk2 RS2000If the Audi driver had been a bloke there'd have been a his head my fist interface moment.Agree too with the NCRAP opinions,

[Guest]

There's a lot of accidents up this way. Here's some local efforts.

Those pictures are pretty amazing as no one seems to have pilfered them for bits! The crashed Integra Type-R would be a bare shell within the day round here. Amazing that they seem to be abandoned yet untouched.Was strange the last time I went to Lincolnshire as I didn't see a single crashed car. On our family holidays to Ingoldmells as a kid I'd usually see at least half a dozen, perhaps the grim statistics have helped. Either that or they clear them up quickly. Still loads of overconfident bikers though.

[Pillock]

Was strange the last time I went to Lincolnshire as I didn't see a single crashed car. On our family holidays to Ingoldmells as a kid I'd usually see at least half a dozen, perhaps the grim statistics have helped. Either that or they clear them up quickly. Still loads of overconfident bikers though.

Oh yeah. A couple of friends are paramedics for that area, one of them works in the air ambulance. Sat around chatting one sunday not long ago and conversation turned to the bank holiday the next day. "Oh yeah, I'd forgotten" he says, "better get the fish slice and go scoop some bikers up". Apparently on the sunny bank holidays, it's just call after call after call for the whole shift attending bike accidents and a lot of them were doing such daft speeds, their leathers just help the paramedics find all the bits quicker.

[Mr Lobster]

A lot of common sense on here which is nice. Ultimately if you end up going head on with a HGV no amount of airbags and NCAP stars will help you.People do seem to sometimes become a bit complacent driving modern cars in that thay have so many safety features and are relatively isolated from the road conditions that they don't realise the potential for an accident and assume that they will walk away.Older car drivers tend to do without quite as many modern fripperies as ESP, ABS and what have you so are more in touch with the road and what the car is doing and don't (generally) go quite as fast without realising the potential consequences.And anyway, the drivers attitude will often have a far greater effect on his or her safety.

[FredTransit]

What I can't get over is when people say "I have to get rid of it cos we have children and it's got no rear seat belts". Did people not have kids in the 70s/80s then? Well they obviously did, so either they made them get on the bus and met up where they were going, or they all died horribly in road accidents due to having poor safety in the (then) current cars. As neither is routinely true, the safety aspects of older car's can't be that bad. Whether you survive is largely due to common sense, and I have to agree with everybody on here that says a lot of it depends on the attitude of the driver.

[garethj]

being a cyclist really sharpens your wit: you develop a sixth sense to mongoloids opening car doors into your path, drivers who move without looking/ signalling

Very true, the only drawback is that cyclists don't tend to look that far ahead because their speed is lower.Or is that just 'cos I can't pedal fast enough

[pompei]

Going back to that Fifth Gear item where they crashed the Modus into the Volvo ...It seemed that the little Renault is designed to "punch" its way through anything it might hit and the front of the Volvo became another cushion/crumple zone. I would like to see what would happen if the Renault hit another Renault, or alternatively a solid object such as a concrete pillar or a tree. I imagine that at a closing speed of 80 mph the damage would be much worse and the occupants would not survive.Similarly if two Volvos hit each other how would that pan out without the NCAP beam across the front?The permutations are endless ...As an aside, is there still a regulation in place exempting 4x4s from safety or NCAP ratings? I don't think I'd like to be T-boned by a bull-barred monster. Or, given the strength of the Renault for instance, would a 5 star car do just as much damage?

[garethj]

Going back to that Fifth Gear item where they crashed the Modus into the Volvo ...It seemed that the little Renault is designed to "punch" its way through anything it might hit and the front of the Volvo became another cushion/crumple zone.

It's just because newer cars (like the Volvo 850 and onwards) are designed for offset crash tests, older cars weren't. This means the 940 was absorbing all the energy through only half the frontal area.That big beam across the front of the little Modus transferred the energy almost right across it so it didn't crumple so hard.But in a rollover crash, or a side impact crash, or a diagonal crash into the quarter panel, or..... things might be different.

[mnde]

People do seem to sometimes become a bit complacent driving modern cars in that thay have so many safety features and are relatively isolated from the road conditions that they don't realise the potential for an accident and assume that they will walk away.

 

Older car drivers tend to do without quite as many modern fripperies as ESP, ABS and what have you so are more in touch with the road and what the car is doing and don't (generally) go quite as fast without realising the potential consequences.

 

And anyway, the drivers attitude will often have a far greater effect on his or her safety.

A lot of sensible things said in this thread. The above got me thinking... I completely agree with complacency and modern cars with safety features... isolated from road conditions etc.?

 

But have driving standards really changed since the 60s/70s/80s?

 

I may be generalising here, but I'm sure there were just as many twattish, reckless drivers on the motorways in the 70s and 80s, tailgating you in their MkIV Cortina 2.3 Ghias and Rover SD1s, changing lane without indicating in their Anglias, driving far too fast for the conditions in their Audi Avants, driving with no lights on in the fog, taking country lane bends far too fast. They had relatively few safety features to be complacent about.

 

I don't think the feeling of invincibility is a new thing, or "it won't happen to me" syndrome, although it is a factor. I really think some people today rely heavily on their ABS, airbags, traction control, ESP etc etc to "sort it" when they're steaming up to roundabouts and junctions seemingly without any thought of preparing to stop. It just means that more people get away with it (and live to tell the tale, and do it again...), whereas if people did the same thing in their Dolly Sprint in the 70s and had to take avoiding action they'd rapidly find out the limits of their car's capabilities...

 

I agree that attitude is everything when it comes to driver safety.

 

I also think that in general driving standards in the UK, especially on the motorways, are shocking. And I despair every time I'm out there, like last night travelling back from Silverstone on the M40.

 

But I also think that this country is by no means alone in that.

 

Anyway, TBH when I saw those pics Ratdat posted I thought firstly (a) you're a bit macabre taking piccies of all these accidents! but also ( it heartens me to see that twattish drivers have actually come to grief (I'm thinking mainly about that white thing and the upside down one - and also the Porche Boxster pic chester drawers posted).

 

I'll leave you with a short video of a crash test of a Citroen GSA (not GS as the title says) - I don't know what speed it was, and it's the old style test obviously, but it doesn't seem to fare too badly! ... except the dummy's head fairly twatting the steering wheel.... but the single spoke wheel was designed to deform easily... still not nice to think about...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYUSQoul ... L&index=36

 

 

Mark.

[Rocket88]

Mnay years ago [mid eighties,] some twat in a Mk1 MR2 pulled out of side turning striaght into the path of yours truly. I was driving an Austin 16 of 1947 vintage [similar to a Ford Pilot] and hit him just behind the drivers door at about 20 mph. The Austin had a slightly bent front bumper, the MR2 was pretty much destroyed................. I wasn't wearing a seat belt [not original equipment constable] but as I saw what was about to happen, I was "braced for impact", and suffered no injuries. The MR2 bloke had concussion and whiplash, as he had no time to do the same.

[AnthonyG]

Whether you survive is largely due to common sense, and I have to agree with everybody on here that says a lot of it depends on the attitude of the driver.

Trouble is its the attitude of the other driver I worry about - thats when I would prefer to be in my new Mondeo than a Mk1 Cortina.I have got very careful at junctions of late, actually making sure that car indicating is going to go that way before moving my move. Basically you have to assume everybody else is crap at driving,distracted or mildly psychotic. In central Birmingham thats a very safe assumption !

[garethj]

I may be generalising here, but I'm sure there were just as many twattish, reckless drivers on the motorways in the 70s and 80s, tailgating you in their MkIV Cortina 2.3 Ghias and Rover SD1s, changing lane without indicating in their Anglias, driving far too fast for the conditions in their Audi Avants, driving with no lights on in the fog, taking country lane bends far too fast. They had relatively few safety features to be complacent about.

 

I don't think the feeling of invincibility is a new thing

Very true. I'm almost invincible in my Mk2 Cortina, why it's got radial tyres and dashboard knobs that squash instead of impale you. It's the safest thing ever!!

 

Just as drivers in 20 years time will say "you drove around in that piece of crap with only 5 NCAP stars? It's a death trap!! I wouldn't put my kids in anything less than a 50 NCAP Gold Star car now"

 

Trouble is its the attitude of the other driver I worry about - thats when I would prefer to be in my new Mondeo than a Mk1 Cortina.

There is still a lot you can do to minimise (not eliminate) the danger, but it is hard work.

[Albert Ross]

My crumple zone is the car in front. People pull out in front of me, as they think "it's old, it won't be going 40 mph in a 40 limit." WRONG! I have crossplies, single circuit non-servoed drum brakes, leaf springs and recirculating ball non-assisted steering with 6 track rod ends. It's vague, I like to leave big gaps in front, but there's always some twat decides that 40 in a 40 isn't fast enough, so has to overtake and get in front, just to do the same speed, then turn right in half a mile! If only new drivers were forced to do 6 months on mopeds, then 6 months in Morris 1000s before going for the test. It would teach them all about respect for other road users. There'd be loads less accidents.

[MrRegieRitmo]

This video scared me a bit. The lorry driver just appeared to fall asleep or just suddenly have a suicidal tendency. The car driver's on the other side didn't have a chance, the last thing they did was slam on. :(It's not gory video, you don't see anyone die, it's just a really long distance CCTV video that's a bit sad and shocking:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBx8aHTBIx0

Fuq That's got to have been some sort of axle/ tracking/ tyre failure of the truck surely.Pretty upsetting looking at the 2 cars on the other side - one was tailgating the other than BAM. The van on the other side didn't even hit the brakes.I'll remember that next time I'm at or over 70 on the outside lane - do I even need to overtake?

That's left me feeling numb! Absolutely shocking..... :cry:Nothing on this earth you can do as one of the potential victims to either a) predict that or do anything about it. At least it would be a quick death...

[MrRegieRitmo]

I found this one quite interesting

 

[MrRegieRitmo]

I knew there had been a thread similar to this one within the last few months talking about personal incidents. I believe it was this one;

 

http://www.autoshite.com/forum/viewtopi ... sc&start=0

 

To cheers us up, here's a couple where things turned out ok!

 

 

[retrogeezer]

I went for a trip out to get some coke earlier (liquid variety) and there was a right foul up outside the local Morrison's. Green Mk1 Laguna had parked itself into the rear of a New shape Kia Sorento. 1 banana shape Renault, 1 scratched Kia. I helped push the remains of the Renault into the kerbside. The Sorento drove away. Closing speed according to witnesses was approx 35-40mph. No casualties. Try that in a Mk3 Escort.

Oh, I dunno - my Mk4 held up to hitting a big stone pillar at 50-60mph when I got shoved off a dual carriageway pretty well:

 

I couldn't drive it away though - mainly due to my broken hand.

 

 

[Mash]

Some interesting replies there. I suppose the underlying element is that regardless of what car you are in, the circumstances of the shunt will ultimately decide a lot.The Humber Super Snipe story was very eye-opening - a big old barge doesn't give much away!I've certainly been much more cautious since last week and extra vigilant.

[mattblack]

I always find it rather ironic (read: it boils my piss) that the same parents who wouldn't dream of ferrying their kids 100 yards to school in anything less than an amour-plated 4X4 with twelvyty air bags aren't so concerned about their safety when they are running around the streets at 11.00 at night....

[Mr Lobster]

I'm certainly aware of the fact that I'm a hell of a lot more vunerable (sp?) in my R4 than in even the SEAT or whatever else I might be driving but ultimately, if someone in a HGV loses it in front of me then theres nothing I can do whatever I'm driving.The parents who buy the biggest 4x4 they can afford to keep their kids safe do annoy me though. I understand wanting to protect your offspring but it just seems a bit of a selfish 'I'm alright and bollox to the rest of you' gesture.

[fotorabia]

i photographed this new Merc taxi one drunken morning in Munich 1990..

[AnthonyG]

The video Regie posted up of the Fifth Gear 'motorway pile up' recreation was interesting - a (Rover) Metro slammed into the back of a Fiat Uno, demolishing the Uno yet leaving the Metro still recognisably a Metro. I guess that shows that most cars developed in the 70s and 80s were really only designed to perform in front crashes, as that was all that was tested by legislation. If the Uno had hit the rear of the Metro the result would probably been similar- anyone who's watched an all Metro banger race can see that the front bodywork is much stronger than the rear of the car.Modern cars have far better secondary (body performance in a crash impact) than pre 1990 ones- that is an inescapable fact. Whether you can see out of them as well due to thicker windscreen pillars etc is another matter.However robust stuff from the 50s / 60s (Cambridges, Rovers, Zephyrs etc) are probably not bad provided you can avoid contact with the dashboard and/or getting a 'Glasgow Kiss' from the the steering column!

[dollywobbler]

I've certainly been much more cautious since last week and extra vigilant.

Ah, I haven't. Was in the 2CV this morning in a queue of cars stuck behind some dribbling idiot in a Rover Streetwise thing crawling along at 40mph. Road opened up and I gave it the beans and decided to take two cars at once. That would have been fine had the car in front of me not also decided to overtake at that moment, without checking their mirrors.At the last minute, she glanced over her shoulder, then continued to pull out before the cogs turned and told her that something was amiss. I was already on the brakes and swerving, so no danger of actually hitting her, but it was close! She didn't look amused...I'll hold my hand up on that one. It was a bit presumptious to not expect another car to try overtaking. Problem is, I had all-valuable momentum and in a 2CV, you're absolutely loath to lose it!Sometimes I think I really should wire up some nitrous to it. That'd be safer!

[M'coli]

anyone who's watched an all Metro banger race can see that the front bodywork is much stronger than the rear of the car.

The Metro's front subframe is way, way thicker than the sheet steel it's attached to and doesn't deform as easily - hence its dreadful performance in the first proper NCAP tests, as the subframe will distort the bodyshell. I still like them though

[j-j]

I had all-valuable momentum and in a 2CV, you're absolutely loath to lose it!

this also applies to cycling - any loss on momentum caused by headless car user (I can't use the word 'motorist') OR people who insist on using the crossing even when the road is relatively quiet, and bring you and say 2 cars to a stop just so they can cross the road without thinking about the road.. Also, people who take ages to get the handbrake off, into gear and actually move after the lights change when I've looked 2 cars ahead to see when their brake lights went off - end up having to brake again waiting for them to wake up.If these people really are that sleepy then.... ah, never mindI love the road...