Zel's Motoring Adventures...Volvo, Renault, Rover, Trabant, Invacar & A Sinclair C5 - Updated 16/07.

[High Jetter]

3 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

Engine oil level?! Never knew that was a thing. I suppose as a Rover owner you'll not have a chauffeur but should be above having to yank an oily stick out of the block...

How does that work, surely not a float in the sump?

No, your man should check it.

[Zelandeth]

25 minutes ago, captain_70s said:

Engine oil level?! Never knew that was a thing. I suppose as a Rover owner you'll not have a chauffeur but should be above having to yank an oily stick out of the block...

How does that work, surely not a float in the sump?

It is indeed a little float in the sump.  In fact exactly the same sender as the one for the fuel gauge just with a shorter arm.  Just a convenience feature from the era when engines, especially on long higher speed runs, would be expected to use a little bit of oil.  Though the sump does hold nearly two gallons...

Rollers used a similar setup through till at least the first generation of Silver Spirit.  I think it switched to a fully electronic unit with the facelift in the 90s.

[Noel Tidybeard]

12 hours ago, High Jetter said:

No, your man should check it.

on a P4? no a aunty rover was driven by an bank manager not a lord!

[Zelandeth]

9 hours ago, Noel Tidybeard said:

on a P4? no a aunty rover was driven by an bank manager not a lord!

I get the impression that it's one of those cars which while it was beyond the reach of a lot of people, among the "upper classes" was in a way "classless" and seemed to appeal to those across the board from managers to as suggested, lords.  I've heard the term "poor man's Rolls-Royce" a bunch, but I think "the thinking man's Rolls-Royce" is probably more fair.  

Target today was the cooling system as this replacement part arrived this morning.

The original has seen better days.

Which had resulted in an emergency bodge involving a bit of intercooler tubing.  

If I'm honest, as "get-me-home" level bodges go this one is a pretty sturdy.  

I had been dreading this somewhat as on my previous one the bottom hose was utterly welded onto the radiator.  I remember it taking me a not inconsiderable amount of time and swearing to shift it as there is zero access to it from underneath (there's a cross member in the way) and I was about ten minutes short of pulling the whole radiator out.  Thankfully it just came right off this one so I had that corner sorted out in only a few minutes.

The eagle eyed among you might spot something amiss here.  Aside from the wrong thermostat housing - I already know about that and have it on the way.

Yeah, the heater hose routing has been messed around with.  That hose vanishing under the air cleaner roughly centre frame should actually be hooked up to a rigid line that runs above the exhaust manifold - which also should have a little heat shield attached to it to protect the distributor.

As demonstrated by a photo from my previous 110.

Which presented me with a slight problem when I was fitting the new hose set.

Of course this is me, so there's a pile of random nonsense in the back of the garage and a bit of digging found a bit of metal tubing which was exactly the correct diameter.

It's really thin walled steel but it will do for now.  

A couple of hours and a LOT of swearing later...

This side wasn't the problem.  The other side on the other hand was an absolute fight.  

The lower heater hose (you can just see it between the rear crankcase breather and the blower motor) runs down to a fitting attached to the rear of the inlet manifold and then carries on to a fitting roughly halfway along the underside of the inlet manifold.

This caused a lot of swearing.  Because whoever assembled it clearly put the hose clamps on *before* attaching the fitting to the rear of the manifold.  Then they rounded off the bolt that holds the bracket on.  I just about managed to get the top one off after a lot of faffing around.

The bottom one however was having none of it, the hose clamp was totally seized up.

Eventually I managed to cram on a metric ring spanner that was one size too small onto the bolt and got the bracket off, so I could pull the whole lot off and attack the hose clip off the car.  

This probably would have been easier if I'd taken the intake duct off but I was being stubbornly lazy and refusing to do that.  Despite it probably being all of about five minutes work.

These were definitely past due for replacement.

You can pretty clearly see why I really didn't want to drive the car anywhere before I changed them.

The package with the thermostat housing in should be here tomorrow which will let me get the top hose changed as well, getting rid of the kink in that.  I think that will get us to a point where I can actually go for a test drive without worrying that the cooling system is going to spectacularly fail at any moment.  

The last thing I checked today was the voltage stabiliser on the dash - and confirmed that it is doing absolutely nothing.  So that would explain why the fuel gauge is reading ~20% too high.  The temperature gauge will be doing the same.  New one ordered.

[Zelandeth]

One of these things is not like the other.

Which once fitted allows the top hose to be properly installed without a huge kink in it.

I think pulling it apart to change the stat was probably a wise move.

The jiggle pin both is installed so it's not at the highest point and was also blocked solid with rusty slime.  

I have run the car up to temperature (confirming the gauge does work), and *think* I've got most of the air out.  There are no proper bleed points on this system so it's a bit of a faff.  

There is however zero flow through the heater core.  The linkage to it though is bent (most likely because the valve is jammed) so I'll need to sort that as well.  The valve isn't actually that expensive so I'm not going to waste too much time on it if it won't free up without undue levels of violence.  I'm expecting the core itself to be absolutely chock full of mud like the last one.

[High Jetter]

Looking at that stat the whole system need a damn good flushing

[Zelandeth]

22 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Looking at that stat the whole system need a damn good flushing

That's my plan.  I'll be dropping everything and doing that once I've run it a bit.  I just really want to get to the point where I can actually give the car a test drive without worrying it's going to explode in a giant cloud of steam at any moment.  I've done a couple of hundred yards and got as far as second gear so far.  Then I saw what state the coolant hoses were in, shrieked in terror and abruptly boxed it in on the driveway before I could tempt fate any further!

What actually came out of the radiator and block wasn't too dire looking, it was really just the heater hoses which were really manky.  Given there's no bypass on this setup so it just dead heads it when the heater is off, isn't all that surprising.

It absolutely will be getting a damned good flushing though.  I just want to be able to get the whole car assessed including a proper test drive so that I feel I can actually write myself a meaningful and prioritised to do list.

[Six-cylinder]

10 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

What actually came out of the radiator and block wasn't too dire looking, it was really just the heater hoses which were really manky.  Given there's no bypass on this setup so it just dead heads it when the heater is off, isn't all that surprising.

It absolutely will be getting a damned good flushing though.  I just want to be able to get the whole car assessed including a proper test drive so that I feel I can actually write myself a meaningful and prioritised to do list.

The heater stopped working on my Vitesse and I replaced the valve, no difference. Just before I took the heater off and apart to replace the core I fed it with a strong mains water hose from both ends. Nothing then it popped, me the engine and windscreen were covered in brown water!  I had a heater again.

[High Jetter]

Fernox can work in any heat exchanger, on the bench.

[GlenAnderson]

It’s really easy to split a P4 heater matrix with mains pressure water. I’d advise caution. 

[Zelandeth]

23 minutes ago, GlenAnderson said:

It’s really easy to split a P4 heater matrix with mains pressure water. I’d advise caution. 

Noted.  I know the system runs at a dizzying 4psi so would be proceeding with a reasonable amount of caution anyway.  Though if it won't clear it'll need to be recored anyway so there comes a point where there's nothing really to lose.  If it's as full of mud as the last one I'm not going to hold my breath.  At least the heater core comes out from the outside rather than having to dismantle the whole dash to get to it.  

[PhilA]

Funny what happens when the engineers get to call the shots, isn't it?

[Zelandeth]

I'm sorry, but HOW much filler is there on this bootlid?

To be fair I knew that from the moment I first looked at it and was already mentally planning to get it properly sorted out.  However I actually had to cut a hole out of the filler to fit the boot latch as it was so thick the linkage didn't reach.

Still needs adjusting but it does at least latch closed now.

I'm guessing this was an overzealous attempt to hide dents in the panel (which these are really prone to being pretty thin aluminium).

Reassembling that latch is *really* sodding fiddly.  If I need to pull it apart again in future the bootlid is absolutely coming off the car first.

[Weird Car]

48 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

I'm sorry, but HOW much filler is there on this bootlid?

 

Didn't this have a respray recently? Imagine happily spending all that money having it painted knowing full well all that crap is hiding under it, seems absolutely pointless 

[Zelandeth]

37 minutes ago, Weird Car said:

Didn't this have a respray recently? Imagine happily spending all that money having it painted knowing full well all that crap is hiding under it, seems absolutely pointless 

Yes, though it seems to be something that happens all too often where paint is concerned.  The bootlid is by far the worst bit of paint on the car where it's clearly stretched/cracked.  There are a few bits here and there where there are imperfections, but the bootlid is by far the worst I've spotted so far.

The bottom of the B pillar is magnetic at least!

[captain_70s]

1 hour ago, Weird Car said:

Didn't this have a respray recently? Imagine happily spending all that money having it painted knowing full well all that crap is hiding under it, seems absolutely pointless 

If it was a paid restoration the owner may never have known what was under the paint!

[Zelandeth]

I do need to have a poke around a few areas to look for evidence of any really nasty hidden grot, but I haven't noticed anything aside from the bootlid leaping out at me as looking dodgy.  

Actually managed to get out for a ten minute or so test drive today.   Two things which need attention most urgently are the steering and the brakes. 

There's a good 1/4 turn of slack in the steering at the straight ahead position - which given with how heavy and vague it is in these cars to start with feels quite unnerving.  Especially when you're straightening up after a junction - you end up having to go about half a turn back on yourself.  I'll need to borrow a helper to investigate where that play is - there are something like eight ball joints in the system so *plenty* of opportunity for play to creep in, and the steering box may well need adjusting itself.

Brakes.  There's a buuuuunch of dead travel, so the pedal is basically here before you get meaningful retardation of forward momentum.

Which in a car this heavy is moderately unnerving.

I know there has been a bunch of work done on the brakes in the not too distant past, so may even be they just need properly bleeding and adjusting.  One of the rears is definitely dragging a tiny bit as well.

Throttle pedal conversely needs a little more free play in.  It doesn't quite return fully to idle sometimes at the moment and the lack of any deadzone makes it really twitchy and makes pulling away smoothly without ending up with way more revs than you need quite difficult.

Clutch pedal definitely sits higher than in my last one.  Though I'm not sure how much adjustment range there is there versus it just changes depending on the level of clutch wear.

Rear suspension is distinctly creaky from somewhere.  Not really a problem as such but will be investigated and remedied as necessary.  I know the springs are terribly dry so that may be all it is.  At least it does seem to *have* at least some semblance of rear suspension unlike the last one where it was all but solid.

All in all, it currently drives like I think a lot of people assume cars from this era were all like.  Kinda awkward, vague and underbraked.  Absolutely to be expected though from a car which hasn't been in regular use for a long period of time and where things were expected to need adjustment and a bit of fettling.  Nothing here scares me.  Once that's all done, it will drive a hell of a lot better than most people would expect.  Still heavy in the steering department, but nowhere near as wayward feeling, and with brakes which feels every bit as good as anything up to the late 80s when ABS etc started to become commonplace.

I'm not 100% sure we don't have some head gasket issues.  There seems to be a lot of gurgling that you can feel through the top hose and top of the radiator, though given how much of a pain it can be to get the last bits of air out of the system on these I'm not going to raise too many red flags there until it's been fully cycled a few times.  Not worried either way as it's not a huge job, and at some point I'd want to pull the head anyway to deal with That O-ring.

It sits between the head and water pump housing.  The pump studs apparently like to snap for a passtime when disturbed so pulling the head is usually considered to be the safer option.

Plus I'd probably like to change the inlet manifold gasket as a precaution - and because I do appear to have a drip from somewhere towards the back of the engine there.  Stripping that off the head, cleaning the surfaces up etc would be a thousand times easier with the head not attached to the car.  Particularly the rear of the mating surface on the head is a bloody long way away when you're trying to remove god knows how old gasket and I remember my back really didn't enjoy it last time round.

I'll get everything needed to pull the head in stock anyway then it's there if I decide to go down that road.  I'd rather have it on the shelf and not need it than the other way about.

Oh, and the horn doesn't work.  The relay clicks but no sound.  I've added it to the list.

All these negative sounding comments aside though, it seems to pull nicely, gearbox is nice and quiet (a lot quieter than the last one I think), syncro in all the gears that have it seems to work, and yes...without the intake silencer on it still sounds absurd when you put your foot down.  On the subject of sound, the exhaust on this one is definitely louder than the last one was.  Not that I'm going to be one to complain about straight six noises!  Seems to track straight, and there are immeasurably less squeaks, clunks and creaks than from the last one.  I reckon with a bit of elbow grease and patience it will be a nice driving car.  At least I do feel that I've got something resembling a to do list now rather than a bunch of question marks.

[GlenAnderson]

Play in the steering box can be adjusted out. There’s also a relay that can cause issues when worn (or partially seized). 
 

A long brake pedal on later cars is usually rear shoe adjustment. I can’t remember if the trailing shoes on later cars are hydrostatic, in that they float and don’t have a pull-off spring or adjuster (like the 88” Land-Rovers). If so, then someone unfamiliar with the setup can easily fit springs incorrectly and that would cause a long pedal too. 
 

The stainless exhaust I had on my 80 was definitely louder than the mild steel one that went before it. 
 

If it still has its wind-tone horns they can stick. They sometimes respond well to a generous dousing with WD40 or similar and a wallop when energised. 
 

You’re right though, once it’s sorted it should be quite capable of keeping up with modern traffic. Provided it’s not on bloody crossplies. If it is, then be wary of throwing it about too enthusiastically. 

[Zelandeth]

15 minutes ago, GlenAnderson said:

Play in the steering box can be adjusted out. There’s also a relay that can cause issues when worn (or partially seized). 
 

A long brake pedal on later cars is usually rear shoe adjustment. I can’t remember if the trailing shoes on later cars are hydrostatic, in that they float and don’t have a pull-off spring or adjuster (like the 88” Land-Rovers). If so, then someone unfamiliar with the setup can easily fit springs incorrectly and that would cause a long pedal too. 
 

The stainless exhaust I had on my 80 was definitely louder than the mild steel one that went before it. 
 

If it still has its wind-tone horns they can stick. They sometimes respond well to a generous dousing with WD40 or similar and a wallop when energised. 
 

You’re right though, once it’s sorted it should be quite capable of keeping up with modern traffic. Provided it’s not on bloody crossplies. If it is, then be wary of throwing it about too enthusiastically. 

Thanks for the feedback, first hand experience is always useful.  Brakes are something I never had to touch on the last one aside from getting the light on the dash working.  There's still a lot I have to learn.

This one is already running on radial tyres - though is never going to be a car to be chucked around really!  Chuck it into a corner too quick and while I imagine it will go around it, the monocle would fall out and the car will make it quite clear that this wasn't the sort of driving she was designed for.

I was absolutely gob smacked the first time I took AVB on the motorway.  I just hadn't expected a car this age to so happily cruise with modern traffic on a road like that, rather than needing to just tuck in with the HGVs and bumble along at 56mph.

[GlenAnderson]

My 80 would happily sit north of 70 for as long as I wanted it to, even with the tired, stock 77bhp 2.25 Land-Rover engine. I replaced that engine with a much later 2.5 litre one from a petrol Land-Rover 110, fitted a gas-flowed head, the manifolds from the 110 with their better flow and twin choke Weber, and the larger bore exhaust from a Rover 100. With a combination of the overdrive gearbox and 3.9 diff from a non-overdrive P4 I think I had something nearer 100bhp and it would comfortably put 100mph on the clock. It was an engine that needed some “enthusiastic” driving though, and it didn’t really suit the nature of the car. The sixes are much torquier, and more relaxed to drive. I had a go in a really late P4 110 and that was, genuinely, surprisingly quick for such a dumpy old barge. You can throw them about, but yes, the body roll is likely to make you lose your monocle 🧐 and certainly have your passengers sliding around on the bench seat. 🤣

If I had known how the engine swap to the 2.5 was going to play out I would have gone a different route. Either a Rover 6, probably the 3-litre variant, or maybe an AJ16. These cars definitely need relaxed and easy power, not an engine that needs revs and gear juggling to make progress. 
 

I think the biggest irk I had with mine, that no matter how much arsing about I did I never cured, was the wind noise at speed. I used to tape up around the quarter-lights if I was going any distance and knew I wasn’t going to want to open them. 
 

I’ll try and dig out some pictures. 

[GlenAnderson]

Found a pic online of my car. Saves me trying to find and scan a photo in. I owned it from 2000 to 2008. Spent a small fortune on it. 
 

[Zelandeth]

That's a classy looking car.  I'll probably end up with some additional lighting like that at some point - because someone has already drilled holes in the bumper for it - and that would give the extra light switch on the dash something to do (once I have sorted whatever is wrong with the original one) something to do.

Wind noise was definitely an issue on my last one - though the fact that you could see daylight around most of the doors because the hinges were so worn and it was impossible to get the doors adjusted properly - the front passenger one in particular which sat proud of the gutter.  I'm definitely not expecting miracles in that department though, aero obviously wasn't exactly high on the design priority list.

Quarterlight seals on this one definitely need changing though as they're badly perished.

[GlenAnderson]

Thanks. I was very proud of it. Ploughed way more money and time into it than could ever be described as sensible. 
 

The colours are Stone Grey over Navy Blue. With a blue interior. 
 

Changing quarter-light seals is a “challenging” task. Best of luck. 

[PhilA]

Check also re brakes that oversized shoes haven't been fitted to standard size drums. 

They'll kinda sorta fit but you can never adjust them right and you'll end up with a lot of dead travel before the brakes come on as it tries to push the shoes against the adusters.

[Zelandeth]

First job today was to try to reattach the fuel pump to the Renault.  Who knew the hose I was trying to replace is a different size at one end to the other.  Fscking thing.

Back to the Rover.  

We needed to do something about the indicators/sidelights.

Which looked particularly goofy from the side.

This is what should have been fitted.  

The chrome backing on the topis actually off a P5 so the indicators don't fit in it.  One of the little red light guides is loose as well so I want to secure that before it bounces off the windscreen and vanishes halfway up the A5 anyway even if they did stay on the car.

You can see how things don't stick out oddly any more.

Much better.

This is the other reason I wanted to change things.  This is the state of most of the lamp holders.

I confess that the sidelights aren't actually connected yet - I realised halfway through the job that I didn't actually have any bullet connectors in stock.  Oops.  The indicators I didn't need to worry about that as they came with the looms already attached so just plugged into the connector blocks straight out of the box.  I did reuse the indicator lenses as there's nothing wrong with them and the moulding is better quality than the reproduction ones.

Electrical issues are pretty widespread on this car, so I've decided to tackle some of those.

The over reading gauges should be a simple one - just replace the voltage stabiliser.  It's the obviously shiny new thing attached to the back of the instrument panel.

Undo the nut holding the old one on, put the new one on and connect the B and I terminals back up as they were before.  Five minute job.  It looks to have worked too.

The fuel gauge is now showing just a touch below full - it was pegged off scale high before.  It probably is still a touch on the high side but far more reasonable.

While I was in there I took a look at the non working dash illumination.  Unsurprisingly this was just because the rheostat was dirty.  A bit of contact cleaner sorted that out.

A new bulb and some cleaning of the fuse holders got the front courtesy light working.

Similar story with the number plate lights - cleaned the bulb holders and they sprung back to life.

The reversing light was actually working but it got the same treatment.

I have figured out where this black gunk is coming from.

It's the electrical tape that's dotted all over this car which has turned to goo.  It's horrible stuff which is like sticky black paint.  Rear ones don't work because nobody reconnected the wires to the switches, so they're floating around behind the panel somewhere.  That's a job for another day, have removed the bulbs for now so that can't ground itself out and drain the battery (assuming there's anything attached to the lights themselves).

The clock has now been reconnected - and still doesn't work.

Not really surprised, had fully expected it to need servicing.

The main beam indicator has been resurrected.  The bulb had escaped from its holder and was rattling around inside the speedometer.

There is definitely something amiss with the headlight wiring.  Which given it's running to a random extra switch on the dash doesn't surprise me.  Main beam is fine, but on dip both dip and main filaments are lit, which isn't right and is asking to overheat wiring.  The wiring in that area we've already established is a mess, so entirely likely could just be connected up wrong on the inner wing junctions.  That's where we've left it today.  Was nice to actually get an hour to do something when it wasn't ten million degrees and actually managed to achieve something.

[Zelandeth]

Isn't this a funky looking brake pedal arrangement compared to a modern car?

That rod heading out of frame to the left runs to the master cylinder, which is quite a chunky one.  Hand for scale.

Underside in general at a glance from this corner looks really pretty clean.

I believe there should be a shield covering the handbrake mechanism to keep the worst of the road spray off of it.  I'll need to find or make one of those.

 

This is what was left of the rubber boot meant to be sealing around the lever where it goes through the floor.

This should do a better job at keeping the elements outside.

Though that's not going to do much given the gaping hole around the brake and clutch pedals.

There is supposed to be a rubber boot there which holds a felt "washer" in place around the pedal shafts.  Unsurprisingly these had disintegrated.

To change these you remove the pinch bolt holding the pedal to the actuator rod and pull it off, pull the old boot out, and stuff the new one in from outside - *before* putting the felt pad in as you need all the flex you can get to get the thing into place.

I do need to tweak the adjustment of the pedal though - the rod should be level with the stop tab just by the boot in the above photo, whereas there's the best part of an inch of clearance at the moment.  I suspect with that set right the pedal will feel a lot better - an inch here equates to probably well over two at the pedal.

Clutch pedal seal will be more of a pain to do as there's a chassis rail in my way.  I will probably pull the brake pedal again and clean up the shaft a bit so it doesn't tear up the new felt seal in a matter of minutes (it takes less than a minute to remove so no huge loss doing it a couple of times) and do the same to the clutch while I have that out to change.  

Anyone know if these felt pads should be dry or soaked in oil/grease?  The manual I have makes no mention of their existence much less any preparation instructions.

[High Jetter]

Felt usually soaked in oil, except on some steering columns

[Zelandeth]

We now have a fully functional set of side and tail lights.

I need to reroute some of them, but have had a closer look at the wiring looms on the inner wings and properly repaired the couple of damaged bits I've found with heat shrink.

This wiring looks like hell, but the actual inner insulation is generally in fine shape and it's just the outer cloth covering that's showing its age.  The damage I've seen in a couple of places is where it's chafed rather than decay or rodent damage.  So I'm happy enough with spot repairs.  There should be a couple of clips holding this to the wing which I need to replace.  Plus some tape to help stop the outer sheath from disintegrating any further.

One odd detail is that these side lights came supplied with 21W lamps, which is total overkill.  I'll grab some 5W ones tomorrow.

Something I noticed wasn't working a little while back was the horn.  Though the relay is definitely clicking when you press the horn ring on the wheel - and I've confirmed that the horns are both still present at least.

I'll pull these off shortly and bench test them.  Hopefully they can be resurrected.  I do wonder if this is something that might have been messed up by the negative earth conversion.  

[Surface Rust]

9 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

  Plus some tape to help stop the outer sheath from disintegrating any further.

 

Nice work. My P4 was riddled with electrical bodges when I got it, so much so that I still disconnect the battery every time I leave it now, out of engrained habit!

I found this fabric loom tape really good for the price, it even looks period correct.

https://ebay.us/m/vGaNjl

[Zelandeth]

4 hours ago, Surface Rust said:

Nice work. My P4 was riddled with electrical bodges when I got it, so much so that I still disconnect the battery every time I leave it now, out of engrained habit!

I found this fabric loom tape really good for the price, it even looks period correct.

https://ebay.us/m/vGaNjl

Cheers for the link.  I've kept thinking I need to get something like that, but it keeps dropping off the 256 or so character long ticker tape that is my attention span before I ever get as far as ordering any.  Now done.

So far this one doesn't look too bad.  I know there's something funky going on with the headlight circuit that I still need to fully investigate (may even have just been a dodgy switch), but it mostly seems fairly unmolested.  Just some issues in the usual areas where it seems to chafe through by the wiring clips on the inner wings and by the bootlid hinges where the loom flexes.  Yes there are a few "questionable" repairs from years gone by here and there, but nothing I'd not expect on a car half this age.

An isolator switch is definitely something I'll be considering though as a common sense safety feature though which can't hurt as some extra security too.  Not as if I even need to worry about a clock at the moment given that doesn't work - and I need to figure out a solution for that anyway given the current one is set up for positive ground and absolutely doesn't work the other way round (barely works at all currently - and the melted plastic in it suggests it's likely just dead).  Radio is likely to be the other big headache there.

Also reminds me that I really do need to make a couple of prominent warning labels for in the engine bay and by the battery to alert anyone poking around electrically that it has been converted.  I know that, but I can't guarantee I'll be the only one ever working on the car.