Roffle NOW WITH ADDED ROFFLING!!! An Englishman's home may be he castle, but his driveway can't be used as a (alleged) forecourt.

[chaseracer]

"Considered reasonable" by whom?

[stephen01]

​all the cars that are taxed, mot'd and insured would be placed on the road, I don't remember there being a law for how many cars you can own for personal use.

 

​I don't particularly like grass but if my neighbours want to cover their garden in stuff I cant do much about it.

[Alfamale]

I would be asking what they did consider reasonable, where that number had been derived from and asking them to quote any part of planning law (either local or national) that states what is reasonable or indeed any law/bylaw you are in violation of.

[DodgeRover]

Today's Emailed reply to my full and frank list of vehicles (didn't see the point of being economical with the truth) is as follows :

 

From a planning perspective keeping this number of vehicles parked at your property is in excess of what would be considered reasonable for personal domestic enjoyment/use.  Is there any possibility of you finding alternative storage for some of the cars ?

 

I look forward to hearing from you again when you have the opportunity of considering this further

 

 

Yes, I could park them all on the road opposite, though Transit van man won't like that!

 

They're fudging and hoping the problem will go away. Maybe they would like to provide you with a free of charge lock up?

Ask them to quote what law stating you can only have x number of vehicles they are basing this on, so you can be sure to comply with it and a full legal definition of "considered reasonable"

If you had several family members living with you, all with their own car and a company vehicle then you could easily have 10 or more vehicles parked at one property.....

[Tonka]

Between the 4 of us in our household we own 12 cars of which 7 are currently fully road legal and all get used most weeks,  2 stay on the road, 4 are on the driveway, 3 are garaged whilst the last  3 are stored elsewhere.

 

We had the "change of use to vehicle storage/repairs" allegation thanks to a persistent and vindictive neighbour, the council sent various letters, I offered to send them all my V5's and car club membership cards, they had watched the house, then  dropped it all as in their words " if there were repairs being carried out it was not on  a level likely to be off interest to them and in any case anything to do with our own cars or our hobby is  not their  concern"

 

Basically it was none of their business or our neighbour's for that matter. 

 

The guy responsible for keeping an eye on council tenants who relishes moving anything not nailed down out of gardens once leaned over my drive gates and said "if you were  a tenant I would have this lot out in a flash" I replied "I know you, you're the guy with the red Peugeot 205,  the one all the local banger racers hate, should I tell them you live in ......." he promptly left

 

Next door then tried reporting me to environmental health for making  noise all the time, I referred them to my planning letter and explained its hard to make noise when you are at work all day just ask the planning enforcement officer who came into my work to buy some parts, he was talking to my colleague and mentioned to him where he was working since he had left the Police force, I said "you once sent me a letter" he remembered the address and said "oh yeah your neighbour is the one who wont take no for an answer, did you ever finish your wife's kit car?"  

 

I don't wish to tempt fate but its been 4 years since that last letter and back then we only had 8 cars between us......

[colino]

On another tangent, a friend in my local authority (sadly where the elected members are now truly corrupt and shit) bemoans the nosey neighbour syndrome that seems to have been kick-started by the TV Hoarders programmes, the ones where TV companies show concern for mentally ill people as a cover for pointing and laughing at them. Some neighbours may well be concerned due to amenity/environment/neighbourhood impact and the LAs now seem forced to act, at great cost, to make sure they are not liable for some old bint living in a rubbish dump with her 50 cats dying and the rats invading the neighbourhood.  In fact our LA has a, "multi-agency action team" to ensure the mental well-being is addressed of anyone reported  to be a classic hoarder.  The other things addressed in the Neighbourhood & Environment legislation are all very weak though.  Who is to say how many old washing machines are too many to keep in your back garden as a hobby, and if your not encouraging vermin or over-spilling from your own property, most things are issues that the LA knows fine well it is an aggrieved neighbour causing trouble and very little can be done about it.

[For Fiats Sake]

It's all very tiresome, I had a conversation with a planning official before and they reckoned two cars was "reasonable".

 

They are all but the two dailies parked on driveway or in the garage.

 

I am not obstructing anybody or blocking access or the pavement.

 

I will enquire if they know of any council run lockups I could rent, I asked when I first moved here and never heard of any vacant.  Calderdale council have locally knocked down at least three blocks of garages locally so I know what the answer will be.

 

It's curious as the bungalow with a large garden on the corner and a high hedge (which Van man parks against) has 3 or 4 caravans parked there (Maybe more but I'm not a nosey neighbour).  It would be interesting to know if they had a similar amount of council attention for their collection.

 

I'm buying a car cover for the parts car, I hope it will quickly become torn and acquire a patina of green slime, should cheer up the front a treat!

[rantingYoof]

The 'reasonable' number is often six, in relation to other business-from-home style planning instances.

 

This depends largely on the size of the house and the amount of land it is afforded.

 

But yes, it's a very vague response. I would certainly respond with 'How many vehicles is considered reasonable, and how has that determination been reached, and exactly what will you accuse me of being in breach of if I do not store my vehicles elsewhere?'

 

You may also consider asking bluntly whether they believe you are acting as a car dealer or whether they think your land is untidy.

 

It certainly feels like to me the council is making noises so they can report to whoever dobbed you in to them and say that they are pursuing it. As soon as it stops becoming expedient to pursue it they may call it off, but until then polite, reasonable and firm responses are probably the best way forwards.

[angle]

I've done a bit of research on this since your last post, and I've found a case in Aylesbury which sounds similar - the council started enforcement action against someone that had 16 cars at his house and told him to reduce numbers to no more than five. The council won at appeal.

 

 

Ground (c) that there has not been a breach of planning control

3. The onus of proving that there has not been a breach of planning control rests with the appellant. He has to show this on the balance of probabilities.

 

4. The appellant lives at No. 40. Part of the driveway to the side of the dwellinghouse and the rear garden are used by the appellant for the storage of motor vehicles.

 

5. The motor vehicles are kept on the land for a number of reasons including those vehicles that are:
a) Used by the appellant on a daily basis as a means of transport.
b) Awaiting removal from the site.
c) Awaiting restoration.
d) To be passed on to the appellant’s children in due course e.g. the classic VW Camper Vans.
e) Kept by the appellant in connection with his interest in the racing of VW Beetles.

 

6. The appellant carries out minor restoration works to some of these vehicles as part of his interest in VW Beetles, Camper Vans and other vehicles. Any major restoration works are carried out professionally at commercial garages.

 

7. The appellant does not consider that he needs planning permission to carry on his hobby use within the garden of the dwelling-house which he lives at.

 

8. Section 55(1) of the 1990 Act defines what development means. It includes the making of any material change of use of any land. Section 55(2) explains that specified uses of land shall not be taken to involve development. These include the use of land within the curtilage of a dwelling-house for any purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling-house. The driveway and garden at No. 40 comprises land within the curtilage of a dwelling-house.

 

9. The fact that the appellant may derive great pleasure from his hobby use which requires the storage of the vehicles is not sufficient for that use to be incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling-house. The enjoyment of such a use has to
be embraced by an element of reasonableness.

 

10. The Council confirmed that prior to the issue of the Enforcement Notice they had carried out inspections and found about 16 vehicles stored in the open and others under covers. At the time of my visit there were about 13 vehicles stored or parked in the open and a further four stored under gazebo-type structures.

 

11. The garden is relatively large but the vast majority of the space within the garden is taken up by stored cars and the gazebos. Some of the vehicles can be seen from public vantage-points but adjoining occupiers are exposed toviews of what was garden and now is land turned over to use for vehicle storage. In my view the level of storage is such that it is not reasonable to consider this to be at a level that is incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse.

 

12. The number of vehicles kept within the garden and the extent of the storage use has totally altered the character of the land from that of a domestic garden to a vehicle storage area. The level of the vehicle storage use amounts to a material change of use because it falls outside what might be reasonable to expect within the garden of a dwelling-house.

 

13. I have explained above that development includes the making of a material change of use of land. The level of storage of motor vehicles within the garden amounts to a material change of use because of its adverse impact on the character and appearance of the area. The exception provided by Section 55(2)(d) of the 1990 Act does not apply in this case because the storage of vehicles is not for a purpose that is incidental to the enjoyment of the dwellinghouse. Finally, no express grant of planning permission for the change of use had been granted. Accordingly, there has been a breach of planning control and the appeal on Ground (c) must fail.

 

Ground (f) that the steps required to comply with the requirements of the Enforcement Notice are excessive and lesser steps would overcome the objections

 

14. The appellant acknowledges that on occasions the level of the vehicle storage use at No. 40 has become excessive but, in his view, the number of vehicles which he should be allowed of keep on the land should be 13.

 

15. In my assessment reducing the number of stored vehicles to 13 would not overcome the harm caused by the storage use to the character and appearance of the area. The Council have suggested a limit of five vehicles. I understand that the appellant currently uses two vehicles on a very regular basis. To retain an additional three vehicles would be reasonable in terms of a level of vehicle storage use in connection with the appellant’s hobby that would be incidental to the enjoyment of a reasonable person’s occupation of the dwelling-house.

 

16. The appellant currently resides by himself at No. 40. Clearly, this three bedroom house could accommodate a family with children who could drive and who would wish to park within the curtilage of the dwelling-house. In my assessment the level of use specified in the Enforcement Notice would facilitate that eventuality and if at some point in the future the house was occupied by more than five drivers the Council could review the situation in the light of the circumstances that applied at that time.

 

17. The appellant has pointed out that his vehicles have not been left on the highway causing a nuisance for nearby residents. The public highway is not available for storage of vehicles and the Highway Authority and/or the Police have powers available to take appropriate action if vehicles are left on the highway causing an obstruction to other road users.

 

18. I therefore conclude, for the reasons explained above, that the appeal on Ground (f) should fail.

 

Ground (g) that the time given to comply with the Enforcement Notice is too short

 

19. The appellant has explained his recent health problems including a period of hospitalisation. He considers that he needs a period of six to twelve months to regain a level of fitness that would allow him to reduce the number of vehicles to five.

 

20. Whilst I have sympathy for the appellant’s medical conditions it is clear that the land can be cleared of vehicles by persons other than the appellant. I consider that three months if not too short a period for making the necessary arrangements for the removal of the vehicles in the event that the appellant feels unable to do this himself.

 

21. I therefore conclude, for the reasons explained above, that the time given for compliance is not too short. Accordingly the appeal on Ground (g) fails.

 

 

 

So, my reading of that is that a decision would probably depend on whether your cars are kept just on your drive, or whether they're parked in your garden. If its the drive, well, the point of that is for storing vehicles on, so its incidental to your use of the house. If they start going into the garden, then it starts to become an issue.

 

Appreciate that might not be what you want to hear, but potentially if some of the situation above looks like it might apply to you, maybe its sensible to start thinning down the fleet in your own time before you have a deadline put on you.

 

EDIT: Although yes, in the meantime do what rantingYoof has suggsted...

[For Fiats Sake]

Thanks for the advice chaps, I will precede with caution.  I'm still unclear at this time whether a notice is coming my way or not.  I'll stick with emails with the council and will formulate a reply for tomorrow.

 

Apart from two dailies parked on the road, they are all parked on a block paved drive, I removed the three that were parked on the garden long before planning became interested in my hobby as I wasn't happy doing that.

 

I think it was the time I went to pick up the caravan and parked (some of) the contents of the drive over the road so I could reverse it in on my return is when the stuff hit the fan.  I came home to find the Transit van parked in front of my house and I was unable to park the caravan.  The next day when the Transit had moved all the cars went back on the drive with the caravan which is when plod turned up etc etc.

[sierraman]

I'd be more than happy if I had someone with some old cars next door. I thought this was the whole point people make when they feel they must own their own house - that they can make it their own and do as they like - apart from causing a nuisance to people.

 

What my neighbours get up to doesn't concern me if it's not affecting me. A bloke up the road keeps his van across the road from me, so what? Does this keep me up at night? Will I be ringing the planning department? I think not.

 

If he was playing loud music at all hours and keeping the kids awake I'd have something to say but if it's not directly affecting my quality of life I don't know why I'd have cause to stick my nose in.

 

In any case these days though, running to the council and telling tales on people might lead to a black eye. I'm certainly not condoning that but depending what your neighbours are like you can't be sure.

 

Live and let live I've always said that, sometimes I can hear the neighbours dog but sometimes they can probably hear us.

[hpi_matrix]

Im just surprised the council has time to deal with such frivolous matters with all the cut backs they moan about. 

[AMC Rebel]

Amazing how Councils and the like always seem to be able to find plenty of time and resources to deal with people who are behaving themselves already, and none on crap things that are actually happening.

[barrett]

This is all really depressing, I'm constantly amazed by how little right people have over land they own. If it was me I'd have them all parked on the street in protest, and hoist a few ISIS flags in the garden etc, but then I'm a total cunt. I'm very lucky that my neighbours have allowed me to take over the shared drive and the guy who lives opposite also has various old bangers knocking about, plus a guy two doors down who always has total heaps parked on the street which makes a few rotting BXs look quite civilised

[rantingYoof]

A council will be obliged by central government policy/targets to investigate/respond to any complaints within a certain time. This is regardless of cutbacks/funding loss etc.

 

I can say with pretty firm conviction that the officers dealing with this particular instance are unlikely to be pleased to be faffing around on a matter like this when they almost certainly have bulging case loads and other likely more obvious and serious breaches of planning control to investigate.

 

The smaller things do tend to be reactive to who is bellowing loudest and the council will be keen to avoid formal complaints.

 

It's an utter lose lose situation for the local authority, trust me.

 

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[DodgeRover]

So If we assume a driveway is designed for the parking of vehicles and was approved by planning when the house was built then as you aren't trading no change of use has occurred so there is still nothing they can get involved with?

[chaseracer]

That's far too logical! 

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I just can't see owt becoming of this as long as you remain polite and honest with the council lot. The whole story sounds like total horse jizz. I reckon it will just 'go away'.

[JohnK]

So If we assume a driveway is designed for the parking of vehicles and was approved by planning when the house was built then as you aren't trading no change of use has occurred so there is still nothing they can get involved with?

^ This.

Are all cars in your name on the logbook and being owned for a period of time? If so I would provide copies and tell them to piss off.

 

I had this once because nosy Doris reported me for busting a car on my drive a day after I bought it. What she didn't know was I had owned it for 3 years and had brought it from my dads to strip and weld (as a hobby). Council didn't take it much further really, this was despite me having a number of cars parked in allocated residential parking belonging to my neighbours!

[RoadworkUK]

It's quite funny. When we bought this place on a cul-de-sac there were a few houses with cars up on bricks undergoing perennial 'repairs', ovens and mattreses in the front gardens, that kind of thing. Moving from an 'executive' house in Frinton-On-Sea with my parents it felt proper rough.

 

Times have changed. Within four years all the houses in the close are now very tidy, and our cars are markedly the oldest of all of them. In fact, if I don't get on with weeding our drive I'll have Neighbourhood Watch outside with torches and pitchforks.

[purplebargeken]

Neighbourhood Watch? What is this thing Neighbourhood Watch?

 

Ahhhhh, Okolica Watch. 

 

Got it!

[For Fiats Sake]

It's driveway envy, the 8 terraced houses at the end of the street have to park on the road or in front of their garages.

 

Whereas I can park 8 cars on my driveway, and a caravan.

 

If you go to streetview using post code hx3 9ry you'll see what I mean.

 

That picture is years old though and shows hardly any parking going on!

[JohnK]

Find storage for 4 cars at £75 a month (price based on what I pay for double garage with two parking space)

 

Sell 4 driveway spaces to terraced houses for £18.50/ week each (equiv 80 a month), tell neighbours to shut the hell up and bask in your new found wealth.

[For Fiats Sake]

Find storage for 4 cars at £75 a month (price based on what I pay for double garage with two parking space)

 

Sell 4 driveway spaces to terraced houses for £18.50/ week each (equiv 80 a month), tell neighbours to shut the hell up and bask in your new found wealth.

 

There isn't any advertised garages or driveways I can find, anyhow, I'm quite happy with my fleet parked on my own land!

 

I could well downsize it of my own accord next year, however I don't like being dictated too, tell me to sell a car and I'll buy another.

[For Fiats Sake]

Third time to do a post but it keeps vanishing while I'm typing.

 

Had another communique from the council.

 

"  In the terms of planning legislation parking cars on your drive would not normally require express planning permission. It would be considered to be a use incidental to the enjoyment of the dwelling house. It is the amount of vehicles you own and keep at the property which are deemed to be  in excess of what would be considered reasonable for personal  domestic enjoyment/use. The Council could serve an enforcement notice which would require the number of vehicles kept at the property to be reduced to a level ancillary to the residential use. This is a course of action the Council would rather avoid if at all possible but you do need to reduce the numbers in a reasonable time. Selling some of your vehicles to reduce numbers would not be something the Council was concerned about.

 

Please let me know whether, or not, there is a realistic possibility of you reducing the numbers of vehicles kept at your property to no more than 4 within the next 3 months ?  

 

I look forward to hearing from you again " 

 

I'm very upset about this, no way can I dispose of 6 cars in 3 months, that's 2 a week and around this time of year?  Totally unrealistic.  I'm being cleaned out financially by the current project so I'd be looking at January before I could think of advertising any of them.

 

Short term the taxed and tested ones could move if I could find somewhere to move them to.

As I've sorned 4 and they have no current mots either they would have to stay on site.  I'm not punting on projects for peanuts, I would like to achieve at least the purchase prices, which won't be realised without a current mot.

 

Not to mention which of them do I get rid of?  There are only three I'm (grudgingly) willing to let go.

 

I hope the cunt that put the council up to this gets cunting ebola of the cunt.

 

[Jim Bell]

Reply politely and say all hold sentimental value and parting with any of them would have an adverse effect on your mental health?

 

I'm no website LAW EXPERT but I bet you FIVE ENGLISH POUNDS that asking you nicely is the beginning and end of their involvement.

[captain_70s]

Park the taxed and tested ones on the street in front of the local council offices, permanently.

 

 

[5speedracer]

Have I got this right, in order to stop your property looking like a car sales lot they require you to sell cars from your property?

 

Sent from my X17 using Tapatalk

[RoadworkUK]

"It is the amount of vehicles you own"

 

No, it is the number of vehicles you own. However, if any one of the vehicles is incomplete, it could be deemed "an amount of car".

 

Tell your council friend to use proper English like what we do.

[DodgeRover]

Tell them no chance, you are using a council approved driveway for parking cars, there is no legal limit to the number you can have nor is there (I assume) anything in the planning consent for your property saying you mustn't have more than xxx vehicles remind them you could legally park the T&Td ones in the streets around your place causing additional parking issues and there is jack they can say about it. You aren't using the highway for storage if they are in use so I fail to see what they can moan over.