Well at least I've tried!

[The Main]

Spent most of the evening composing a letter to my MP expressing my horror about the dreaded Scrappage Scheme. Focused mainly on the environmental argument, the economic insanity of such a scheme and the blatant moral travesty of low-earning taxpayers funding the purchase of a luxury good by affluent, middle-class 09-plate-obsessed twunts. I didn't actually say 'twunts', though. It's been sent, so I'll let you know if I hear anything back.Also pinged a slightly different version over to Jeremy Vine at Radio 2 - I figured that his 'mass' audience would be a good one for a debate on the subject. Even if it starts people thinking about a car's pollution being more complex than what they can actually see coming out of the tailpipe. He'll probably ignore it, but you never know.If Vine does agree to use it as a subject for debate, I vote we try to get some motoring journalists sympathetic to old car use on there to argue the case. I'm thinking maybe Peter Simpson from Classic Car weekly (unless he agrees with the principle of a Scrappage Scheme of course!), maybe someone from Classic Cars or Practical Classics (assuming they don't mind pissing off their car manufacturer advertisers, that is) - anyone got any ideas about who'd be good on there?I might send it to some of the national newspapers as well, I just want to try for whatever coverage I can get.....

[Father Ted]

Send itto the Daily Mail, go on I dare ya - i bet they say you are a Facist Sympethiser for having these views

[pompei]

Jeremy Vine's resident motoring expert is none other than mcqueenmachine from this parish.

[FredTransit]

The more I read about the scrappage scheme, the more I think it's just a marketing ploy that will fail in so far as getting old cars off the road. Few who have bought a new car, and have done in the recent past, will be running a 9+ year old car. I accept there will be a few occasions where some perfectly good classic cars will go, but I would like to bet they really would be few.

[pompei]

Italy introduced a similar scheme a few years ago. Anyone know how "successful" or otherwise it was?

[The Main]

Send itto the Daily Mail, go on I dare ya - i bet they say you are a Facist Sympethiser for having these views

Yes, good idea Father Ted. Although I'd be tempted to attach it to a cruise missile for those nice people at the Daily Bigot, er sorry, Mail.But those are exactly the sort of people who need to be addressed

[The Main]

The more I read about the scrappage scheme, the more I think it's just a marketing ploy that will fail in so far as getting old cars off the road. Few who have bought a new car, and have done in the recent past, will be running a 9+ year old car. I accept there will be a few occasions where some perfectly good classic cars will go, but I would like to bet they really would be few.

Yes, but their student son or daughter might have - and they could put the new motor in their name in order to qualify couldn't they? It wouldn't be hard.

[Fat_Pirate]

Do stop worrying about this, it isn't going to happen. The country is already up to it's neck in debt, no government is going to blow even more cash on a short-term prop up of the car industry, where most of the money will end up in foreign hands anyway. Unless you'll all swear to buy Morgans, that is.

[dollywobbler]

This will be headline news in a certain weekly newspaper with a classic look at life...Writing to your MP is a sensible step though. Good on you! (I've written to mine on the same subject too...)

[FredTransit]

The more I read about the scrappage scheme, the more I think it's just a marketing ploy that will fail in so far as getting old cars off the road. Few who have bought a new car, and have done in the recent past, will be running a 9+ year old car. I accept there will be a few occasions where some perfectly good classic cars will go, but I would like to bet they really would be few.

Yes, but their student son or daughter might have - and they could put the new motor in their name in order to qualify couldn't they? It wouldn't be hard.

I believe you have to own the car for a year, and it must be tested to qualify.

[AnthonyG]

They work in Italy, France and Spain, because the nature of the car market is different. A lowish to average income family will buy a reasonably basic Clio or Megane new, run it until it's fairly ancient, and then go and buy another new car. Hence the scrappage incentive results in these old cars getting traded in against a new replacement equivalent.A lowish to average income family in the UK buys a 3 year old Mondeo or whatever, keeps it until it starts costing money on repairs (7-8 years) and trades it in against another 3 year old car.The used car market in these Southern European countries is much smaller than in the UK, and they do not such have a massive fleet presence distorting the market, and providing shitloads of 'nearly new' cars. There are other reasons too - the paperwork/bureaucracy involved in transferring ownership of a car in Italy (when I studied it for a Cardiff Business School project in 2000) cost the equivalent of £600. In the UK it costs the price of posting the V5 to the DVLA. People in these countries simply do not buy and sell used cars (at any price level) at the same volume as in the UK.Also in France and Italy (and presumably Spain as they make Seats, VW Polos, Corsas and Kas), the local car industry benefits because the French buy French cars and the Italians buy Fiats (or did until fairly recently). Scrappage schemes also work well and make sense when combined with introduction or toughening up of MoT/roadworthiness tests, as Ireland did in the mid 1990s.

[uncle silvia]

Italy introduced a similar scheme a few years ago. Anyone know how "successful" or otherwise it was?

Italy is full of really cool old stuff still on the roads!!!!

[dollywobbler]

Italy introduced a similar scheme a few years ago. Anyone know how "successful" or otherwise it was?

Italy is full of really cool old stuff still on the roads!!!!

Yes, but there have also been many cases of perfectly good classics scrapped for no good reason.

[FredTransit]

They work in Italy, France and Spain, because the nature of the car market is different. A lowish to average income family will buy a reasonably basic Clio or Megane new, run it until it's fairly ancient, and then go and buy another new car. Hence the scrappage incentive results in these old cars getting traded in against a new replacement equivalent.A lowish to average income family in the UK buys a 3 year old Mondeo or whatever, keeps it until it starts costing money on repairs (7-8 years) and trades it in against another 3 year old car.The used car market in these Southern European countries is much smaller than in the UK, and they do not such have a massive fleet presence distorting the market, and providing shitloads of 'nearly new' cars. There are other reasons too - the paperwork/bureaucracy involved in transferring ownership of a car in Italy (when I studied it for a Cardiff Business School project in 2000) cost the equivalent of £600. In the UK it costs the price of posting the V5 to the DVLA. People in these countries simply do not buy and sell used cars (at any price level) at the same volume as in the UK.Also in France and Italy (and presumably Spain as they make Seats, VW Polos, Corsas and Kas), the local car industry benefits because the French buy French cars and the Italians buy Fiats (or did until fairly recently). Scrappage schemes also work well and make sense when combined with introduction or toughening up of MoT/roadworthiness tests, as Ireland did in the mid 1990s.

That's interesting, when you put it like that launching the scheme in this country makes even less sense. Also less likely to be a success.

[Mr Lobster]

As above, in Southern Europe families don't buy a new car ever three years as a rule although undoubtably some will. An awful lot buy a new car and then run it until it dies hence why you can still see so many elderly Renaults, Citroens etc in France. They don't seem to suffer the same snobbery about driving older cars that infect the UK. I really don't see this scrappage scheme working that much if it does go ahead.

[FredTransit]

Though part of me does worry that if even one roadworthy classic goes to the scrappy it will be a waste.

[Volksy]

Though part of me does worry that if even one roadworthy classic goes to the scrappy it will be a waste.

Its not just classics, just the general waste of useable vehicles pisses me off, The fact that they are stating then should it come in one of the requirements should be that the tradeins are MOT'd, so its not removing the scrap, just vehicles that in the current economic climate people can afford to run.

[FredTransit]

yeah that pisses me off big time as well, but then again the people that are running middle aged cars are not about to buy a new car, scrappage discount or not.

[AXrescuer]

Insurance companies don't help when they are happy to write off a perfectly good car for the sake of a broken headlamp and front bumper! As they did with my brother's old Punto.

[Mr Lobster]

I do fear that very few people would be interested in seeing 'our' side of the argument.We live in a very throwaway society where anything older, less than perfect or damaged is thrown away. If that attitude could be changed then we would be halfway towards solving a LOT of problems.

[Guest]

AnthonyG's point sums up very well how it works over here - a huge fleet market feeds into shitbag places like Carcraft. A scrap scheme would not affect those people as they do not own the car until the finance is paid off.So when you look into it, how many people don't actually own their car?Off the top of my head:- Someone who gets a company car every few years- Someone who has got a new car on finance from the dealer, but has years to go before it is theirs- Someone who has an ex-rep car on finance who isn't intending to get a new one, but has years to go before it is theirs- Someone who constantly owns ex-rep cars on finance and never actually "owns" one as they get another every few years, with the existing finance being paid off each time with a new arrangement and part-exThe only people I can think of who would really use this scheme are those who buy a new/nearly new car outright (or independently financed) and own it until it is worth less than the scrappage value, many years down the line - ones who get rid of them before that won't want to entertain the scrappage scheme as their car will still be worth more in part-ex anyway. Meanwhile, people who buy used cars outright remain largely unaffected as the gap between used and new cars isn't bridged enough by a scrap incentive. Their pool of motors is reduced, but probably not by anything noticable as the market is already saturated with used cars which people aren't willing/able to swap for new ones and thus don't get scrapped.And that is why it won't work, so we can all just chill out now. Cheers!

[pogweasel]

Absolutely right Hirst. Up to the point where they try to make it compulsory rather than voluntary. Because I really wouldn't put it past them. And I wouldn't put it past the brain-dead electorate to allow it happen either.

[FredTransit]

If something like scrappage was made compulsory they would have to offer the 2.5K as compensation, not just a discount, which would mean car owners getting it in cash, it's not gonna happen.

[Justin Case]

Ironically, it should work better if it were for MOT failures only, as the 'repair or replace' equation would tip the scales even more in favour of the 'replace with new' alternative.

Faced with say a £500 repair bill on a car worth at most £200, £2000 is more enticing than £2000 for a car that's still worth £1000.

[Guest]

Nah Pog, that would cost them a lot of money and hassle for very little gain. In this country, old cars aren't enough of a problem for them to tackle. We don't have a situation where about half the cars on the road are battered old sheds like some places in Europe do."Proper" bangers died out here years ago really, I remember as a kid there was all sorts of truly knackered old crud going about, but nowadays an old shitter is just an R-reg Escort with ropey rear arches and a few dents down the side, which probably won't pass the next MOT because it needs £200 of fairly routine work. So old cars aren't really a big issue here, even the environmental issue doesn't hold much weight as the bulk of stuff in daily use will be on a cat by now and if the emissions are knackered it'll probably be fixed/binned at MOT.All this scrap scheme is down to is the ailing car industry clutching at straws and trying anything to get people buying cars again - they've banged on about schemes like this for years, but it's only with them facing some difficulties that their comments are now being considered in any form.In conclusion, I'm not too concerned. Obviously we can all have a good laugh about it when I'm wrong, the Galant is crushed down and I have to drive a sodding Tata Indica instead.

[pogweasel]

Hang on, isn't a Tata Indicar £1400 otr?So do you get cashback on the scrappage scheme? New car every year AND £1100 cash, that would work.

[FredTransit]

That's a point, do they pay us if the car is costing less than £2500??

 

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/23032009/36/th ... car-0.html

[Guest]

Hang on, isn't a Tata Indicar £1400 otr?

Nah that's the Nano posted above, the Indica is the CityRover one. If I had to drive a Nano to work, I think I'd just end it all.

[FredTransit]

Hang on, isn't a Tata Indicar £1400 otr?So do you get cashback on the scrappage scheme? New car every year AND £1100 cash, that would work.

i would start stocking up on shitty corsas now if that was the case.....

[Volksy]

The only people I can think of who would really use this scheme are those who buy a new/nearly new car outright (or independently financed) and own it until it is worth less than the scrappage value, many years down the line - ones who get rid of them before that won't want to entertain the scrappage scheme as their car will still be worth more in part-ex anyway. Meanwhile, people who buy used cars outright remain largely unaffected as the gap between used and new cars isn't bridged enough by a scrap incentive. Their pool of motors is reduced, but probably not by anything noticable as the market is already saturated with used cars which people aren't willing/able to swap for new ones and thus don't get scrapped.

Sadly the people in this bracket generally own the cars that are most desirable for us shiters. My Parents always buy new, do next to no mileage and look after their car. For example they have just bought a new Honda Jizz to replace their ageing Peugeot 106. The 106 was bought new for cash and a part ex of their Seat Ibiza, they had it for 11 years, always garaged it covered 26,000 miles in that time had it serviced at the dealers every year and any repairs got done regardless of cost. They got next to fook all for it in part ex, but the fossils cant be bothered with trying to flog a car privately. If they had of got £2000 to see it scrapped, my old man would have bit the dealers arm off!