Save LDV

[FredTransit]

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/SaveLDV/

 

You might have seen this on other forums, but I am posting this here as it's a worthy petition. Better we add support for the British workers, its about time the government helped out the true suffers of this recession - the manufacturers of BRITISH products not fat cat bankers

Please sign up and help keep LDV alive

[Milford Cubicle]

British product via Korea?

[dollywobbler]

You see, the problem I have here, is that I don't see the point in saving LDV. Should the government bail out every company that goes to the wall? Or just those that we like because they used to make Sherpas? Forever?I feel for everyone at LDV and I certainly do not wish the factory to close, but I can't see that a government bail out is going to achieve anything, other than delay the inevitable.I hope I don't sound uncaring - I think LDVs are great, and even spent my college work experience at the Washwood Heath factory - which is was nice - but I though I'd present the arguement against.

[FredTransit]

This is to keep 6000 people off the dole! The £24 million pound loan 4 years back was money well spent compared to paying 6000 x £57/per week dole payouts (and that's if everyone claims the minimum) nearly £18 million a year BTW! So £71 million in total and also that's just the jobs that go at the factory that doesn't include job losses at factories that do work for these plants!I know it's not the government's job to bail out inefficient car plants but it is the government's job to pay the workers once they have all lost their jobs!who pays the government ? We all do!!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

LDV is owned by a Russian aluminium magnate. Why isnt he bailing it out? He seems to have completely washed his hands of it, he owns the bloody thing.

[Mash]

It's a real shame if they do go to the wall with all those people out of work but I have to say that I'm not sure the government should be responsible for it; I agree that whoever owns them should stump up the cash and develop the product into something that people want to buy.Even if the governement bails them out who's to say the company would be any more successful? It has to be said that the Maxus was a bit too little, too late really. All the other manufacturers had moved on by then and not offering a chassis cab initially was not a smart move - all the supermarkets use Sprinters and Crafters for their home delivery vehicles and there are a hell of a lot of them; they can't just rely on the Royal Mail to be patriotic especially as their monopoly is at risk now and I wonder how well the Maxus did in export markets.Truth is that if the product is not up to scratch, no amount of government money will make it sell - look at Rover.

[Vin]

It's a shame, but as has been said, if you start bailing individual companies out where does it stop. Brother in law is a branch manager for National car rental and when the Maxus was new they took them onto the fleet - breakdowns and poor build quality, such as the doors falling off didn't really go down well with Joe Public, so they got rid......Unfortunately in the world of business today it's a case of 'you live by the sword and die by the sword'

[Guest]

  Mash said:

Truth is that if the product is not up to scratch, no amount of government money will make it sell - look at Rover.

+ 1

[dollywobbler]

I think rather more than 6000 people are suffering job jeopardy at the moment. Bailing out one small company is not the answer.Don't know what the answer is mind. How do you stop an ecomonic disaster? Postcards to 10 Downing Street...

[FredTransit]

They do/did have plans for an environmentally sound vehicle, which is what I though the government was looking for.

[Torsten2001]

Delighted to sign it! The government could support it with orders instead of spending OUR cash on fucking Mercs and Volkswagens, if you do fuck all, fuck all happens.

[Mr Lobster]

  Mash said:

Truth is that if the product is not up to scratch, no amount of government money will make it sell - look at Rover.

Exactly. Bailing them out will buy them time but not long.The trouble is the Maxus is a bloody awful product. Reliability and build quality is shocking when compared against Transits / Master or anything else. If they could sort that then people might actually buy them!

[Pillock]

  Torsten1001 said:

Delighted to sign it! The government could support it with orders instead of spending OUR cash on fucking Mercs and Volkswagens, if you do fuck all, fuck all happens.

But if the reliability of LDVs is as bad as people are saying (and I have no experience either way), won't it just mean local authorities running LDVs until they break down so much they're replaced by Mercs and Volkswagens?And then there's obviously emergency services where I assume reliability is pretty high up on the list of requirements. Fact is people aren't buying LDVs for a reason, and if it's quality then no amount of bailing out will help. If they're spending money on every van sold through warranty claims, then more vans = more debt!

[reallyloud]

I wonder if LDV had planned and developed a green vehicle for the future, would the situation have been different - the government is injecting 27 million pounds into Land Rover to develop a green car for eventual production in Halewood, therefore saving a number of jobs.

[Torsten2001]

  Mr Lobster said:

  Mash said:

Truth is that if the product is not up to scratch, no amount of government money will make it sell - look at Rover.

Exactly. Bailing them out will buy them time but not long.The trouble is the Maxus is a bloody awful product. Reliability and build quality is shocking when compared against Transits / Master or anything else. If they could sort that then people might actually buy them!

Horse shit! LDV's are no more unreliable than any other van, I will not buy another Merc van, the reliablity is not up to scratch, I would run LDV's if they had a European dealer network and they made a bigger van, LDV have given me vans to use, my customers rate them but my vehicles spend 60% of their time in Europe, subsequently I buy VW, the fittings in LDV's are not high quality but the vans themselves are rugged and durable, they are fitted with VM diesels which are superb units, If they were so shit why do the Post Office stay loyal?It's more a classic case of people running down British products. I could tell you stories of VW doors consistently falling off, Mercedes engines failing at 60k, Gearboxes, diffs, electrics all failing, utterly useless customer service and many other things.6000 jobs at risk and you have a problem doing the tiniest thing to help? Is it because it's easier to slag LDV off as shit than put your name to a petition. With loyalty, support and a willingness to learn from mistakes and progress LDV could carve a decent niche

[dollywobbler]

But that still doesn't make LDV any more deserving than the hundreds of business that could go to the wall in the next few months. That's the problem. I won't sign a (frankly useless as they ignore them anyway) petition to save one company when it's the entire situation that needs solving.

[Split_Pin]

Theres nothing to lose by signing it even if it may not do any good in the end.Isnt the Maxus a cast-off Daewoo design?Afraid my interest in LDV's (purely from an enthisiast angle) stopped with the last Convoy in 2006.My avatar is a bit of a testimony to the old ones durability - this ones been there for 10 years!

[dollywobbler]

I really, REALLY don't believe in signing petitions just because they are there though. It undermines the whole thing.

[Torsten2001]

EVERYONE that is in danger of losing their job deserves our support, sorry you don't believe in it, for what it is worth I have lobbied my MP about all the causes I can from Woolies to Zavvi to LDV and Rover because it would be so nice if people even gave a small fuck when my job's against the wall.You have to excuse me but one of the reasons I'm on this forum is because I am nostalgic for a time when we had a pride in ourselves and our abilities and to see some of you lot just dismiss LDV as a shit product when some of you have had little or no experience of it and to casually dismiss the poor fuckers who are sitting there shitting themselves about their future frankly turns my stomach. Most of my friends take this piss out of me for protesting at the closing of an envelope but I am truly pissed off about the lack of concern for the shit way this country has been run since the late 1970's.Sure, don't sign the petition anyone, but the trouble is you won't do anything else. I make it my policy to send as many letters to my MP as possible, he has to respond and he probably thinks I'm a c*nt (he's probably right) but I'm too old to go firebombing parliament and my dreams of anarchy are in the past

[dollywobbler]

I can certainly understand your view, but if I was to write to my MP (and I have, twice, on other matters) it would have to be with something constructive to request. Bailing out companies just isn't the answer. If they're that close to building the right vehicle, why is no one coming forward with the readies? Believe me, those with money still have money. Look at British Leyland. The government stepped in and were so reluctant to provide development money that it's amazing that the Maestro/Montego were launched at all. And in the end? Disaster anyway albeit a couple of decades down the line. I'm pretty sure that BL absorbed far more money than ever came back to the government too, so it just doesn't really make economic sense to get involved - unlike banking (well, in theory - we haven't seen any proof that bailing out Northern Rock was the right move yet!).

[Mr Lobster]

Torsten, I see what you mean but signing a petition or writing letters won't change the situation unfortunately. There needs to be a viable business case for saving any company, LDV or otherwise.I do agree about people criticising things they have no experience of. I am qualified to say they are shit as I have six of the fuckers on my fleet at work and have been constantly amazed by the breaking turbos, door locks made of cheese and comedy electronics.I really feel for those affected by this - I've been made redundant twice in the past myself and its a horrible situation - but there needs to be a business solution, one that involves some new owner injecting capital and introducing products that will actually sell at a profit and allow for further development of the business in the future. The government bunging a few million quid will only buy them a very short time ultimately.

[bigstraight6]

As commerade bollox mentioned earlier, why isn't the Russian owner of the company dipping into his pocket and indeed seems to be keeping a very low profile.....I really do feel for the workforce, but at the moment there are no buyers for any new vehicles, let alone commercial ones. I think it's fair to say 'new labour' have proved that they are not capable of running an economy just like 'old labour' couldn't, what a bloody mess

[Torsten2001]

LDV have been ripped off by their twat of a Russian owner, they've come back with a plan and they need help, they are not looking for free cash, they are looking for a loan to the tune of a few city bonuses, can't see the issue although my politics would lean towards nationalisation, And yes I see your point about throwing good money after bad but with constructive management, a sustainable and realistic business plan, which I believe they have, and purchasing support of UK Government, Public Bodies and Authorities we are halfway thereas for their quality, I am qualified to say they can be no more shit than other marques. you would not believe what I have to put up with with my Merc Sprinters, a blown turbo is the least of my problems, door handles break with alarming regularity, new keys every three weeks, engines with FSH and less than 80k destroying themselves, gear change cables stretching rendering the van undriveable, boring and unending electrical issues, leaking windscreens, injector issues, collapsing drivers seats, windows falling off their runners etc, and I have only 3 but the Vianos and S Classes aren't much better whereas with my old Convoys they just kept working clocking up 50k a year plus. I actually expect problems with new vans regardless of marque and the sole reason I won't by another Sprinter is that Merc customer service and after sales is shit and the dealers appear to be arseholes.

[dollywobbler]

I will concede that other modern vans are also rubbish. We've got a Peugeot 'big thing' on the works fleet and it snapped it's door handle within weeks. Do Mk1 Ford Transits snap their door handles? I bet most of them are still on the original! It just isn't right when you can only get into your brand new van via the passenger door.As for Russians - after that idiot who broke TVR (and still owns them I think?!) I think we should get rid of the lot of 'em. Even that chap who owns Chelsea.

[AnthonyG]

The Russian who owns it should put his hand in his pocket - I understand he is 'mates' with both Mandelson and George Osborne, if he wants to have 'influence' with the political elite in the UK, he should keep his pet factories open.

 

Most people who drive vans do not like LDVs, they are perhaps unreliable but more to the point unpleasant to drive. Thats a fact, I'm afraid, MG Rover made much better vehicles and they still died.

 

If van factories should be subsidised, which they shouldn't, then the money could be better spent on Southampton (Transit) and Luton (Vivaro) as these build products people actually want.

 

Personally I think none of these companies should get any money bar Jaguar Land Rover, as that is the only firm, apart from Ford, that still has substansial (or indeed any) R&D spend in the UK.

 

P.S I know JLR are now owned by Tata, but at least Mr Tata has a reasonable history in investing in the companies he owns, and indeed recently sold 45% of a flagship IT company (TCS) to raise money for his other concerns, including Corus and JLR.

 

As Dollywobbler says these Russian c**ts can fuck off back to whatever corrupt mining town they crawled out of in the first place. Yeltsin has a lot to answer for - I can see why Putin likes putting them in prison

[Mash]

I wonder if it might be better to invest in other types of manufacturing in the UK and trying to get industry and exports kick started again or has the horse bolted too long ago?Just thinking aloud here, but it seems to me that we ought to face up to the fact that motor vehicles in general as a new items are less in demand nowadays so perhaps car factories should be downsized to a managable level to meet the demand of those people who will always buy a new car regardless and fleet buyers rather than pumping out untold amounts of stuff that will just sit around - build to order as it were?This would ultimately be healthy for the used car trade and as any fule kno, better for the environment. Crazy talk I know but in an ideal world that's what I would propose. Course it'd take a hell of a time so set up a healthy manufacturing base in Britain again to enable prices to compete with the far east.Hope I don't sound too hypocritical for not supporting LDV in one breath and then shouting "Buy British" in another!

[FredTransit]

The Ford transit is going to Turkey, and they have got unending issues with everything from rust to design faults (even their flagship the Sportvan only manages to get 2-3000 miles out of the (laughably expensive) tyres. that having said, it does at least have a better track record than the Sprinter or the Vauxhalls of the same size (whatever they are called this week). The LDV is not the most comfortable van I have ever driven, but they do go on and on, which is something the transit has not managed since about 1998. We have got at least 3 Mk1 transits that are still on thier original handles, and at least 8 Mk2 that are too......The Russian billionaires are getting their fingers burnt on their stock market, and truth be known they just don't have the cash any more, though they might have assets, they are cash poor.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Sorry for the thread resurrection......LDV's rock. We had an emergency delivery to do when someone suddenly dropped out. In the pub 10pm Sunday night when the call came.Load up the Sherpa! 53 plate LDV tipper, loaded up with a big load and on the road for 3am Monday morning, destination Holland. Down the M1/M25 to the Chunnel, across France and Bell Jum. What a machine. We were racing everything on the way back.Thay're a bit crap in many ways but there has to be a market for a cheap commercial vehicle that just does its job. Even if it does date back to 1974.The comment about car manufacture scaling back is a good one. Once small companies were banging on about how they've made a million cars this year.Scaling back on car production and scaling up on aftersales is the way forward. The manufacturer buys the the dealerships (as MB did), reduces parts costs to motor factor levels and sells more of them as a result. There is serious money in parts and service, and the longer a car stays on the road, the more parts and service it will require.Ford have been guilty of asking staggering money for car parts - £110 for a pressed steel Fiesta sump for example. I wonder if they will get real anytime soon?

[AnthonyG]

  The Reverend Bluejeans said:

 

The manufacturer buys the the dealerships (as MB did),

 

If you are referring to what Mercedes did in the UK in the late 1990s, it resulted in appalling service levels and a lot of very pissed off previously loyal customers.

 

It didn't help that the utter, utter shit they launched around this time, (A class, 96 on E class, 2000 on C class, V class 'people carrier') were a bunch of four wheeled turds that were a total f**king travesty to the Mercedes brand and the legacy of vehicles such as the W109, W123 and W116.

 

Only in the last 3 or 4 years have Mercedes started to recover from this 'challenging' period in their history. Blame a certain Herr Schrempp.