Exceeding BXpectations - Now With Added Renault 4

[vulgalour]

Thank you for the details on the fuel pump inner workings, most informative.

[Cleon-Fonte]

3 hours ago, Dave_Q said:

Fair play for tearing into the injection pump, I consider myself fairly brave at taking things to bits but have never touched the inside of a pump for fear of critical things going SPROINGGG and impacting themselves in my forehead as soon as a crack the lid. 

I suppose the days of just picking up a Bosch pump on ebay for £50 are now long gone and this is what life is like now for a dedicated XUD fancier.

 

There's nothing to the Bosch VEs really, I think there are about five or six springs in the main body of the pump and none of them are under enough tension to ping off into the distance/your eyes. Otherwise it's just a few inert lumps of heavy metal. The Lucas pumps I believe are a bit different, with more springs and many more moving parts to projectile in all directions.

There's still a fair number of sub-£100 eBay Bosch pumps around for most stuff, but the Land Rover and XUD ones command a healthy premium these days and a working, rebuilt one is £500+. Buying this one and rebuilding it set me back less than half of that so it was definitely worth doing.

[Cleon-Fonte]

Time for the last year of R4 news.

The first issues were all cooling related, the radiator was knackered and the cooling system full of sludge which one day started projectiling out of the expansion tank. A new Hella radiator was acquired for a mere £28 and the sludge eventually cleared out for fresh coolant (I assume you all know what a radiator looks like so I won't attach pictures). More problematic was the cooling fan which no longer seemed to work, probably due to the ridiculous wiring spaghetti previous owners installed to operate it. I chickened out of doing anything with this and paid a man to do it instead.

 

 

I then replaced the faulty condensor with a new Der Franzose item which promptly killed most of my consumable ignition components, necessitating a full ignition service.

It became clear as MoT time approached that some welding was going to be needed as there were some clearly obvious holes in the chassis side crossmembers.

Luckily my friend runs a fabrication and welding business, as well as being an inverterate Morris Minor enthusiast. One of his long term projects is creating a full stainless steel floorpan for his Traveller (that can then serve as a template for either stainless or galvanised mild steel floorpans for customers' cars). In return for help removing the remains of the body from the chassis of the donor/project car he offered to do my welding.

Angle grinders were thus wielded and this...

 

 

...turned into this.

 

 

With that out of the way the R4 was brought in and welding began.

 

 

 

The knackered track rod ends were replaced at the same time.

 

 

Unfortunately the MoT man's hammer turned my front chassis leg into this.

 

 

So it was back to the workshop.

 

 

 

And a clean pass was acheived.

 

[Cleon-Fonte]

Renault 4 GTLs were originally fitted with Zenith 28IF carburettors from the factory. These carbs have something of a bad reputation, they always fail eventually and always in the same way, fluctuating between running horribly rich and horribly lean at random intervals and generally causing poor running. This ultimately renders them scrap as they're mostly sealed, non-repairable units (how modern!). When one day the engine began running like shit, lean enough to cause pinking one moment and rich enough to smoke like a diesel the next, it wasn't exactly a mystery why and I began to look for new carbs.

Unfortunately I then found new R4 Zenith carbs cost a bloody fortune which I wasn't particularly happy with, considering these things are little more than consumable items and I knew the new one would fail spectcularly somewhere down the line (probably at the exact moment when the supply of replacements dried up, knowing my luck). With long-term reliability and ease of maintenance my main aim I began to look at other carb options, which are surprisingly limited.

These GTLs have an oversized, high compression engine that's detuned for economy entirely by restricting the fuel supply, theoretically by fitting a bigger 32mm Solex carb from a Renault 5, together with the matching inlet/exhaust manifold, you can take the power output back to R5 levels, a jump of 13bhp and a less spectacular 2lb/ft of torque. I didn't particularly feel I needed the extra power, but it looked like the easiest option in the circumstances. A manifold was sourced from France and what was advertised as a Solex 32SEIA was acquired on eBay.

 

 

Annoyingly when the new carb arrived it turned out not to be a 32SEIA but some weird thing that was only fitted to certain R5 models for one year and featured many unique, unobtanium parts that were helpfully missing, so I ended up having to source an actual 32SEIA, this time a brand new, mint boxed example.

 

 

Does anyone know what that canister does?

Here it is with the original carb, as you can see it's somewhat more beasty.

 

 

Nothing is as straightforward as it first seems and it turns out that as well as the carb and manifold, you also need the R5 water pump, rocker cover and throttle cable assembly, together with a number of other sundry parts. This would be fine if R5 parts were as widely available as R4 stuff, but finding most of these bits proved almost impossible, so I needed a Plan B.

In the meantime I decided to try and get a bit more life out of the old Zenith by cleaning it up as much as possible. It wasn't actually that bad if you ignore the miniature cowpat in the bottom of the float bowl.

 

 

Much better.

 

 

The clean carb looked slightly incongruous in the otherwise filthy and disgusting engine bay.

 

 

Cleaning the carb exceeded my expectations - I managed to get a whole 30 minutes of decent running before things went back to being shit.

So, that left me with one very knakered Zenith carb, two big Solexes I couldn't use and an R4 that was going nowhere. In the next part we'll look at the solution to all my carb worries.

[dozeydustman]

37 minutes ago, Cleon-Fonte said:

 

 

Does anyone know what that canister does?

I think it's a miniaturised shut-off solenoid which is wired into the ignition system; turning off the ignition stops flow of fuel into carb. I'm pretty sure @catsinthewelder had a similar sort of thing when he changed the carb on the Dacia.

[Cleon-Fonte]

Aye, the gold bit sticking out of the carb is a stop solenoid. I was referring to the thing on the end of the fuel hose, I assume it's a filter but the all the fixings are done up so tight I can't undo them without damaging the alloy casting, so I can't take a look inside.

[djoptix]

I have access to a huge amount of R4 spares if there's anything you need to buy. Only for 850cc models though, very little GTL specific stuff - but there are some carbs I think... 

[Cleon-Fonte]

Whilst browsing French Renault 4 parts sites over breakfast one morning I discovered the answer to all my problems (well, all my Renault fuel delivery problems at least).

Enter Solex No.3.

 

 

It's a Solex 28IBS. These were originally fitted to Renault Dauphines but were later fitted to some Spanish R4s and R6s (which were always a bit weird compared with their counterparts built elsewhere). Unlike the big Solexes, it's a direct swap for the original Zenith and will just bolt on to the existing R4 hardware. The best bit about it, though, is how simple (and fixable) it is, it can be completely stripped down to its component parts and reassembled in a matter of minutes and all parts are readily available online.

Once I'd discovered it's probably easier to send money to al Qaeda than some bloke with some Renault 4 parts in rural France who doesn't use PayPal, and in the process bailed out my bank with transfer fees, I could sit back, wait for the French postal service to do their thing and look forward to many happy miles of motoring.

Well, I could have if I'd not decided while waiting for the new carb to test fit the big 32mm carb and manifold to see just how many things I'd need to change over for it to work. It turns out there's a weak point on these R4 cylinder heads around one of the manifold studs and if you tighten that particular manifold nut to anything near the manufacturer's torque setting it's entirely likely you'll crack the head. Naturally I was unaware of this sage advice until the new carb had arrived, I'd gone to refit the old manifold, torqued the nut up to the recommended torque setting and cracked the head.

The crack wasn't so bad that the head couldn't be reused, but there was limited time available and my welder friend didn't really have long enough to do a thorough job. Junkman and I had a leisurely afternoon refitting the head but after a few minutes of running the crack reappeared. With even less time to get it sorted I bought a good used head for a relative pittance and went about fitting that instead.

The first job was to swap over all the bits from the old head.

 

 

Then it could be taken to its new home.

 

 

The Renault got its second new head gasket in a week.

 

 

The head was then manoeuvred into place (easier said than done when there's a lump of cast iron hanging off one side) and bolted down. None of your stretch bolt nonsense here.

 

 

The rocker shaft was then attached.

 

 

And that was the bulk of the work done. All in reattaching the head, checking valve clearances and whatnot took about an hour and half.

Did I mention I was moving house while this was happening? Unfortunately whilst re-attaching the alternator I managed to strip the thread for its mounting bolt, and naturally finding an M7 bolt in Glossop on a Sunday afternoon was a non-starter, so I failed in my aim of moving the R4 to its new home under its own power and had to get the mechanic from work to tow it here instead.

 

The cat's verdict on the Renault 4 parcel shelf: 'no BX, is it m8'.

 

And once I'd attached the alternator, and replaced the relatively new Der Franzose fuel pump with a QH one that actually worked the R4 ran properly for the first time in a long while. Although admittedly there was quite a while when I didn't realise the hose connections were the opposite way round on the new pump and spent ages pumping fuel to the tank.

Daily driver duties were then assumed.

 

[Cleon-Fonte]

Once the BX was also towed down to the new place these two old heaps began living together for the first time. I believe this is the first photo I took of the two together.

 

[brownnova]

Awesome to see this back up and running... I hope the next update is as positive!!! ?

[Cleon-Fonte]

Life with a Renault 4 is a largely uneventful experience, they tend to just work most of the time and after all the carb fuckwittery I've been rewarded with pretty reliable service. There were a few teething troubles, that dodgy new condensor from a previous post killed my coil, and its replacement, before I binned it for an NOS Renault one. Then when I went to fetch the BX's new head the carb repaid me for my minimal cleaning after purchase by causing serious fuel starvation, driving from Peterborough to Glossop entirely on backroads in a car that'll only go at wide open throttle with the choke on was a bit of an arse. Otherwise it's been fine.

 

 

What a car! The Renault 4 GTL is truly the car for everything, it's as much in its element powering effortlessly over tiny lanes and farm tracks at speeds that would break most cars as it is serving as an urban runabout. Not that it's restricted to such work, it'll comfortably cruise along at 70mph all day and the soft, spongy seats and suspension make it a thoroughly pleasant way of doing long journeys. Some people might consider the R4 slow but in actual fact its performance is merely much more in tune with modern traffic conditions than most cars, I rarely travel slower than I would in anything else. It also handles extremely well, once you've learned to ignore the body roll you can drive along twisty roads at indecent speeds, slowing as little as possible for corners and using the throttle as a second steering mechanism.

There also can't be many cars of this size that can function as a very effective small van when required, capable of hauling surprisingly large, bulky items with ease, and can then accommodate four people (plus their luggage) in a remarkably high level of comfort for a cheap economy machine. It's impossible to appreciate just how practical these little cars are until you live with one.

September saw a trip to Cholmodeley where it added some class to the 1980s section along with its main rival and a slightly more sophisticated compatriot.

 

 

It was then used to collect another small Renault.

 

 

With the thing up and running I could finally start improving its condition, but that's for another post.

 

[Skizzer]

Fantastic stuff.  I’d love a 4GTL at some point.

[Cleon-Fonte]

Do it, you'll love it. They are, after all, effectively just a halfway house between an R16 and a garden shed.

[Cleon-Fonte]

The Renault rode and handled well enough but it could have been much better, lacking the ultimate softness one would expect and capable of becoming a bit of a handful on really rough roads. After the Cholmondeley trip was out of the way I decided to address this, the primary suspect being the dampers.

One of the reasons for the R4's legendary ride quality was the standard fitting of Decarbon gas dampers. Not only do these smooth out the road beneath, they're also there for durability: with so much wheel travel and the inherent built in softness R4 suspension components are put under a huge load (not to mention the fact that the rear dampers work the opposite way to normal) and conventional oil dampers simply aren't up to the job, tending to wear out rapidly. Decarbons are no longer available, but Monroe and KYB still sell R4 gas dampers, so for £25 a corner I decided it was a no brainer and bought myself a set of Monroes.

I soon regretted buying the Monroes, they sell the gas and oil dampers under identical part numbers, with no markings on the dampers themselves, and whilst the first rear ones I received were gas I kept receiving oil dampers for the front. After receiving several sets of incorrect Monroes I gave up and bought KYBs instead.

Anyway, with the rear wheels off I could see exactly what was fitted and how fucked it was.

 

 

Er, yeah, that's not a good start. It's clear that whoever last replaced these went out and bought the cheapest, shittest dampers they could find. Definitely not gas and I doubt they were even for a Renault 4.

Once off I found neither of the rears had any movement whatsoever, I'd been driving this poor thing around for a year with effectively no rear damping function. Old vs. new shot.

 

 

Replacement is trickier than removal as the new ones require compressing before they go on and there's no partcularly easy way to do it. Eventually the method settled upon involved much gaffer tape and plenty of swearing.

Then they were put in place.

 

 

Slowly shiny parts are beginning to appear in amongst the rusty old shit.

At the front I found what I believe must be the original Decarbons. Still not great but at least they were doing something. Seen here with the knackered anti-roll bar bushes I replaced at the same time.

 

 

Overall a massive improvement. The Monroes on the back are a bit too firm for my liking and the front of the car now rides much better than the rear as a result, but even the worst roads are largely smoothed away and it's much happier changing direction. Indeed, I'd go as far as to say the little Renault is now the equal of the BX, except at low speeds where it's better.

 

 

 

[dollywobbler]

Great stuff. Enjoyed catching up with this thread.

[Cleon-Fonte]

Finally we're on to real time updates. Try to contain your excitement.

Last week I took the R4 in for its MoT. Sadly my usual MoT tester was booked up and the only place which could fit me in have a reputation for strictness. As such I expected it wouldn't pass and, inevitably, it didn't.

 

 

The conversation about the first failure point went thusly:

'We couldn't open the passenger door from outside.'

'Did you try unlocking it?'

'No, we just couldn't get it open.'

'You just needed to unlock it.'

'Oh, does it open with the key, then?'

'Only in the sense that you need the key to unlock it.'

'We did unlock the other side, doesn't it have central locking?'

'Does it look like something fitted with central locking?'

[Tester looks at car and ponders for a moment]

'Oh.'

The headlamps are easily sorted so we'll ignore those.

Apparently a bungee cord is no longer acceptable as a battery holder. This is probably the failure I'm most annoyed about (apart from the door) as that little bungee cord had clearly provided years of excellent service and the battery wasn't going anywhere, but rules are rules I suppose.

According to the tester the exhaust was only mounted in one place out of four. Given that one of the four mounting points on an R4 is the manifold I call bullshit as the exhaust would be dragging along the road. The easily visible mountings underneath were all fine, so further investigation was required for this one.

The rust is just a few small holes on the front chassis crossmember, it's nothing particularly difficult to sort. The areas in the advisories I knew about (one of them is pictured further up this thread), they're not structural and therefore none of the tester's business.

The tester also admitted 'I think the suspension arms are supposed to be like that' so that advisory can also be ignored. I might change the arm bearings at some point soon anyway, fortunately they're set in rubber bushes so they can't seize solid into the arms like BX ones do.

All in all, not as bad as expected although two of the failure points (the door and exhaust) were spurious or potentially so. I guess if the R4 can go up against a tough tester and this was all he could find it must be pretty good overall.

 

 

[strangeangel]

Good work, and it's great to see this thread updated on a more regular basis ?

 

You had a better day than @djimbob and I*, I shall write up the account of our lack of success now...

 

 

*My purchase of a scooter that looks like it's been stolen and recovered multiple times aside, of course.

[Cleon-Fonte]

I had a free afternoon today so decided to sort out most of the MoT failures

It's quite easy to see why a bungee cord was used to mount the battery. The factory fittings will only accommodate the size of battery originally specified by Renault which these days is somewhat unusual. Few people, not least this car's previous owners, were likely to have shelled out three times more for the correct sized item compared to the next size up. I wasn't going to ditch a perfectly working battery and therefore I'd have to create a mounting of my own.

To make a simple battery mount simply take one length of M6 threaded bar and bend it like so.

 

 

Drill two holes in the battery tray. I would have cleaned up the rust a bit but I have a new galvanised battery tray to go on at some point anyway.

 

 

Then insert the threaded bar into the holes, screw on a couple of nuts and voila, one very secure battery.

 

 

 

 

 

[Cleon-Fonte]

As I suspected the two exhaust mounts at the rear of the car were fine, which meant the only one left to check was the front one in the nearside wheelarch.

Once on axle stands it was clear this was the problem mounting.

 

 

Luckily I'd already stocked up on Renault exhaust bobbins.

 

 

And another MoT failure was ticked off the list.

 

 

Fuck knows what the guy was on about when he said the exhaust was only mounted in one place.

I also adjusted the headlights with the aid of the long-suffering Mrs Cleon-Fonte and a sheet of cardboard, and tweaked the mixture and lowered the idle to get me through the emissions test.

On Tuesday the welding will be carried out and then it's time for a retest.

[Cleon-Fonte]

'What's happening with the R4?', you probably haven't asked yourself recently. Just in case you were clamouring for an update, here you go.

Early March saw the R4 brought into the workshop for its seemingly annual MoT-mandated welding session, this time on the chassis front crossmember (or Naepoleon's Hat as it's known due to its shape). Yet again it found itself in the company of a slightly rancid Morris Minor.

 

 

This rancid Morris Minor, in fact, seen in happier times when it was used to collect the R4. It was brought in for a bit of remedial work and that's where the problems started, it was soon found that what wasn't made of filler was made of rust, with a number of previous welding repairs appearing to have been carried out by Stevie Wonder on heavy skunk. I've recently been making a living preparing it for some slightly better welding and a fresh coat of paint, I can always upload some pictures and words about it if anyone cares.

 

 

Back to the Renault, I may have foolishly said this about the rust in one of my previous posts:

 

On 3/5/2020 at 7:48 PM, Cleon-Fonte said:

The rust is just a few small holes on the front chassis crossmember, it's nothing particularly difficult to sort.

 

Clearly that was never going to be true and with the front bumper off those 'few small holes' quickly became this. Had Naepoleon tried using this as a hat he'd have got a very wet head, more worryingly I was relying on this to hold my engine in place and provide a semblance of structural rigidity to the front chassis legs.

 

 

Unfortunately, by this point the common cold's angrier brother had reared its head, sent the world into a frenzy of hysteria and basic necessities like pasta, bog roll and freedom disappeared overnight. Worst of all it seems to have provided La Poste with an excuse to operate even more slowly than usual (proof that anything is in fact possible) and the Renault was sat waiting for the two bits of Naepoleon's Hat for what seemed like forever. Last week, however, the parts finally arrived and work could begin again.

Step 1 was remove the rusty old bits. This photo gives you a flavour of how asymmetrical a Renault 4 is, it's not just the wheelbase but the entire car.

 

 

Then the new rear panel and the back of the front panel were given a coat of weld-through primer. These new panels are galvanised and the metal used about twice as thick as the Renault originals, which should help them last more than five minutes.

 

 

Once the two bits were welded together and a lot of cutting, filing and sanding carried out on the chassis (the R4 they used to measure up the panels was clearly very different to mine) the panel was finally put in place for welding.

 

 

Welding was carried out - rather stronger welding than Renault originally employed - and with the first proper coat of paint on the front of the panel here's how things look now. Unfortunately this is now the most aesthetically pleasing bit of the car.

 

 

That leaves me with a bit of seam sealing to do on the back of the panel, the final painting, then everything can go back together and hopefully this thing will finally be road legal in a week or two.

[N Dentressangle]

Nice work. The Napoleons Hat is so well hidden it's probably good that the tester spotted it. I've had 2 R4's, and never even looked at that bit for rust (there was plenty of obvious stuff to focus on)

I'm coming to the conclusion that taking old cars - ie anything pre '95ish - to an MoT place that doesn't work on them regularly is a waste of money. Having to explain to a tester how to open the bloody door doesn't inspire confidence, and I've only ever ended up with a novel's worth of shitty advisories from them, plus the obligatory picky fail.

Love the asymmetry of the R4. A really well-designed car which as you say, is actually the only car most people would ever need. I reckon an electric conversion would be utterly future proof.

[Cleon-Fonte]

It's definitely best it was replaced, I knew it wasn't pretty but I did think the whole thing still existed and would be capable of limping on until I manage to take the body off for full restoration. I'll give the MoT tester that one...

My experience with MoT garages is much the same, if the tester's not particularly understanding of old cars things can become a pain in the arse quite quickly. I went to this garage because they'd done some decent work on the other half's ancient Clio and there was a Citroen Visa on one of the ramps, which led me to think they'd be sympathetic to elderly French hatchbacks and their foibles, clearly they weren't. I'll be going back to my usual tester once everything's back together, at least his diary will be fairly empty now.

An electric Renault 4 would be a perfect everyday runaround, although I would miss the constant din of the little engine thrashing and wailing away up front.

 

 

[Jifflemon]

Bloody love a R4, ran one for many years back in the 90's. Cornering at speed would have onlookers pointing and running for cover!

 

[dollywobbler]

This thread makes me happy. People have been asking me repeatedly to try a Renault 4 against my 2CV. Would you be up for that once normality returns?

[Cleon-Fonte]

I'm sure we can arrange something.

[Talbot]

On 4/13/2020 at 8:00 PM, Cleon-Fonte said:

My experience with MoT garages is much the same, if the tester's not particularly understanding of old cars things can become a pain in the arse quite quickly.

The fairly heated arguments that numerous people have had with MOT testers about Hydro-Citroen handbrakes would absolutely agree with this.  On on occasion on a BX I had in for test, the MOT man absolutely flatly refused to believe the handbrake could possibly work on the front axle, and that it was most definitely reading zero effort.

"so how is the car holding parked on that slope then?  and no, it's not in gear"

"ummmmm"

"twat"

[Eyersey1234]

Back in about 1996 Car Mechanics Magazine ran a R4 as a 3 part project, the idea was to do the whole thing for £100 including purchase price, IIRC they made it with pence to spare. 

[Cleon-Fonte]

19 hours ago, Talbot said:

The fairly heated arguments that numerous people have had with MOT testers about Hydro-Citroen handbrakes would absolutely agree with this.  On on occasion on a BX I had in for test, the MOT man absolutely flatly refused to believe the handbrake could possibly work on the front axle, and that it was most definitely reading zero effort.

"so how is the car holding parked on that slope then?  and no, it's not in gear"

"ummmmm"

"twat"

 

I've been fairly lucky in that most garages round here outright refuse to even look at the BX, let alone put it through an MoT. When I first bought it it needed tracking and the reasons garages gave me when they refused to do it ranged from stupid to impressively elaborate. Luckily I found someone who learnt his trade fixing BX company cars 20+ years ago, although even he refuses to do another octopus.

The one time I took it somewhere else for an MoT I ended up in a bizarre circular argument about the rear suspension cylinders, where they tried to argue that the LHM leaking out couldn't possibly be split gaiters and had to be the cylinders themselves, whilst I tried to encourage them to at least change the gaiters and see. Once my usual guy was back from holiday he spent a few minutes changing the gaiters then passed it as the leaks stopped.

Unfortunately any garage will work on the R4, which makes it much harder to weed out the idiots.

[Talbot]

26 minutes ago, Cleon-Fonte said:

I've been fairly lucky in that most garages round here outright refuse to even look at the BX

I remember a hilarious incident where a garage quoted £185 to do a front wheel bearing on a BX.  I was somewhat taken aback by that, and asked them how much it would be for a Pug 405 front wheel bearing.  They quoted "about £60".  I pressed them over the price difference,  and they stated it was "much harder" to do a BX one.

"What, when you can de-pressurise the suspension and just lift the carrier out rather than having to battle with the front springs?"

"oh, can you?"

"yes, put the car up on a ramp and I'll show you" ... Put car on 2 poster, set height to low.  Unbolt and remove hub.

"oh, that was easy"

"so, about that £185...."

"Ya, how about £50."

[strangeangel]

On 4/15/2020 at 1:34 PM, Cleon-Fonte said:

I've been fairly lucky in that most garages round here outright refuse to even look at the BX, let alone put it through an MoT.

 

 

I thought I'd got off lightly when the garage two villages from here agreed to MOT the BX. I took it back there for a few little bits and pieces and then the clutch, which they moaned like fuck about doing and compounded this by doing a bad job. When I turned up there with a mahoosive leak from one of the front-to-rears they told me to go away! That was annoying because they'd had the car a week by this point, but on the plus side it had pissed about a litre of LHM onto their recently-concreted forecourt in that time ? Incidentally, that first clutch expired after 10000 miles of really bad service, M&M put another one in and it was like a different car. Fuck knows what they did with the first one.

 

It's weird that where I take it now is one of the places you'd had hassle with? They've been great with the BX... when it comes back from there I find little things fixed that I never asked for & that they've not mentioned, just seen it and put it right. One time I went to collect it he handed me a very manky bungee rope along with the keys... I looked puzzled. "We've welded the rear exhaust hanger pin back on", he explained. Ah...