Stanky's Car Fixing Thread - New Battery Day 25/10

[Stanky]

54 minutes ago, JMotor said:

Wrong parts. We've all been there.

In fact it's a part of daily life in my job of being a storeman 😂. 

Otherwise sounds like you're making steady progress. Maybe not anything startling, but it's moving forward. 

As for the gearbox leak. Is there a oil level bung in the gearbox to check if there is something left in the Fiesty's gearbag? Wonder if its because the diff seals are gubbed? 

Yeah, not going at super speed but I'm not in any rush with this being a third car - I can take my time and enjoy* it rather than rush and screw things up.

Right, the fiesta gearbox is an ongoing saga. There is no drain plug and no level dipstick. It is leaking from the passenger side driveshaft seal - with it up on the lift, oil has sprayed everywhere. Last summer I syringed about 300ml into the gearbox through the fill plug but with absolutely no clue about how much had come out I didn't want to overfill it. its an IB5 gearbox if that helps, but positively no drain plug. 'filled for life'

Clearly since then more has leaked out, there is a 2 foot puddle under where its parked now, but its hard to tell how much has escaped since the oil spreads out so much over time. it could be less than I think.

At least one garage has looked at it and declared they don't want to get involved, which my BIL has understood to mean 'its fine'. I beg to differ but I am not a professional. He likes the car but it never gets washed, serviced, hoovered out - nothing. he's not a car person. He's probably had his money's worth out of it TBH so if it b0rks iteself he'll get something else.

[Talbot]

Looking at the photos of that rot that needs repairing, I think you're going to be very lucky to get away with only going up to those factory holes in the rail.  I suspect that the rail is two thicknesses of steel together and the rot extends quite a bit past those holes, and very likely past and under the spring mounting too.

I would count on having to cut the spring mounting off, and likely having to go at least another 100mm to the right of those two holes.  The repair will probably need to be done in a couple of sections to allow for the curvature of the pressing.

Similarly on the nearside wheelarch.  I think you're going to be chasing rot for at least another 30-40mm further than the red box you've marked.

That's if you're intent on doing a "proper" repair of both of those areas.  It would of course be possible to just plate over both of them (without really cutting anything out at all) and get an MOT pass, probably for at least another 2-3 years.  Depends how much time you want to spend on it.  And it is all time.  The comparative cost for the cutting and welding is probably less than a tenner.  It's the time to do it that is the killer.

[artdjones]

9 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Looking at the photos of that rot that needs repairing, I think you're going to be very lucky to get away with only going up to those factory holes in the rail.  I suspect that the rail is two thicknesses of steel together and the rot extends quite a bit past those holes, and very likely past and under the spring mounting too.

I would count on having to cut the spring mounting off, and likely having to go at least another 100mm to the right of those two holes.  The repair will probably need to be done in a couple of sections to allow for the curvature of the pressing.

Similarly on the nearside wheelarch.  I think you're going to be chasing rot for at least another 30-40mm further than the red box you've marked.

That's if you're intent on doing a "proper" repair of both of those areas.  It would of course be possible to just plate over both of them (without really cutting anything out at all) and get an MOT pass, probably for at least another 2-3 years.  Depends how much time you want to spend on it.  And it is all time.  The comparative cost for the cutting and welding is probably less than a tenner.  It's the time to do it that is the killer.

That's right, even getting a small patch cut out and welded and ground back is 90 min to 2 hours.

[Talbot]

I was very heavily reminded of this when a garage I know were doing some MOT welding repairs on an old Toyota Lucida people carrier.  The rot was in a slightly complex area on the inner sill, and rather than spend what would have been two days cutting it out and replacing the rotted out areas, he just made a plate to fit over everything and welded it on.  The reasoning for that being that not only does the customer not want a £1000 bill for their slightly tatty old shunter, but also that by the time that plate rotted out again, the whole vehicle would likely be utterly rotten, so that plate was the least of the concerns.

It still took him a couple of hours to do though, as access was a $&!!!3#

As much as it felt like a bodge, it was really just protecting the customer's wallet and doing what was needed in the circumstances.

[Stanky]

21 minutes ago, Talbot said:

That's if you're intent on doing a "proper" repair of both of those areas.  It would of course be possible to just plate over both of them (without really cutting anything out at all) and get an MOT pass, probably for at least another 2-3 years.  Depends how much time you want to spend on it.  And it is all time.  The comparative cost for the cutting and welding is probably less than a tenner.  It's the time to do it that is the killer

This is what I'm umm'ing and aaahh'ing over currently. I can't weld, not even a little bit, I could chop it all back to clean metal and my brother is reasonably confident he can weld in new metal but its a fiddly place and fiddly shapes, and to be honest, I don't know what the MOT man will say about it all. I had an idea to sort of build it up in sections but this will take time and potentially not be adequately strong enough - I don't know.

With Option B (plate over it) and get it tested and back on the road would definitely be quicker and probably a lot easier, but I suppose it will carry on fizzing away underneath. I guess with only 30 of these left on the road, should I get it done properly, or should I get it mobile again and then save up to have it done properly further down the line? Or just enjoy it and when its time comes, either sell it on to someone who can do a proper job or frag it? 

I'd love for it to be looked after and get into the proper 'retro japanese' stage that its just on the cusp of now, first things first will be to see if we can get the engine idle issue sorted and the very obvious MOT bits replaced - Tyres, dampers, exhaust. If I can get those all done - things that are definitely within my abilities then we can turn attention to the welding. The sills and floorpan all looks to be in OK shape, but having owned daihatsus before I know only too well how rusty they get. And this one has a 17 year, 120k mile headstart on me!

EDIT TO ADD - if we went with Option B, plated over the whole lot, it is worth then drilling a hole in the plate, pumping in as much vactan and hi-zinc primer as I can and then putting a small rubber bung in to try and protect whats inside or is that a waste of time?

[Talbot]

16 minutes ago, Stanky said:

its a fiddly place and fiddly shapes, and to be honest, I don't know what the MOT man will say about it all. I had an idea to sort of build it up in sections but this will take time and potentially not be adequately strong enough - I don't know.

I have fabricated and welded an awful lot worse than this in the past.  It's entirely achievable.  As time is not a massive pressure on you at the moment, I would get the car lifted up as high as you can safely do, drop the rear suspension out of the way and start cutting back to see just how bad it is.  Remember, the welding of new material back in is by far the easiest bit.  It almost matters not one jot if you're doing a 50mmx50mm patch or a 150x100mm proper let-in repair.  In fact, I'd say the let-in repair is usually *easier* to achieve the welding, as all the material actually lines up, is properly clean and there's no rust you're trying to bosh over.

Whilst I completely understand you wanting to focus on stuff you can do, I would get the engine running issues fixed first, as that's a bit of an unknown.  The tyres/dampers/exhaust are just bolt-on crap that is easy, quick and guaranteed to work.  The welding repairs should probably be one of the earlier things to look at. (after the engine maybe)

16 minutes ago, Stanky said:

If we went with Option B, plated over the whole lot, it is worth then drilling a hole in the plate, pumping in as much vactan and hi-zinc primer as I can and then putting a small rubber bung in to try and protect whats inside or is that a waste of time?

It would slow it down for sure.  Vactan, then zinc, then a shit-tonne of wax would probably make it last for many many more years.  The biggest issue is you can never be sure you've got it everywhere, so there could well be some nasty rot still working it's way through the steelwork just next to where you've welded.

16 minutes ago, Stanky said:

I can't weld, not even a little bit,

Time to learn!

Actually, as I've said before, the welding is the easy bit.  If you can disassemble all the stuff in the way, cut out all the rot, clean up all the parent metal, make up the repair sections and have it all fit together quite well ready for the electric glue, you've done at least 90% of the work.

[Stanky]

Thanks, appreciate the pointers - I hope to have the engine running again to evaluate the live data by the weekend and will go from there. 

[Stanky]

The new exhaust rear section arrived while I was out (failing in) fixing my brother in law's fiesta alarm issue, along with the gasket, so with my youngest still asleep I set out to sort that out.

/\ /\ /\ New and old look approx the same dimensions, so I'm doing better than I did with the dampers. Its also shinier and is made by a company called 'GT Exhausts so I'm pretty sure it will add at least 50bhp.

I wire brushed off the mating surface of the centre silencer, copper slipped the extruded threads, slid the metal crush gasket on, fitted the exhaust and poked the bent bit of metal into the old hanger rubber then tightened up the nuts. easy, even I couldn't muck this up

sits fine, endy pipe is shiny, clears the torsion beam, happy days.

While I was underneath I gave the leading sections of the inner arches a good seeing to with black matt enamel paint

Tidying them up quite a bit and managed to not get any enamel paint on the training edge of the side skirts or on the bolt that holds the torsion beam bushes in, just in case this needs to come out at some future moment. I did the other side but its less accessible and looks the same. 

SO, lets recap what we've achieved so far shall we?

exhaust done, dampers are on their way, welding we have discussed above, I need the alternator back before I can reassemble the inlet manifold and throttle body, though they have both been re-gasketted and cleaned up and are ready to be re-attached. Alt might be ready tomorrow if I'm lucky, or next week if I'm not. 

 

 

[Stanky]

Today has been a day of mixed fortunes. JASM called to say the alternator was fixed, he'd replaced the pulley, bearings, regulator and brushes and cleaned the shell up. I went and collected the alternator before a work call. 

Refitting the alternator was easy, sorting the belt out was a mega ballache but was eventually overcome with the help of the routing diagram that @Tubbo helpfully left in the glovebox. With that refitted and the belt tensioned I could refit the inlet manifold and throttle body as well as air inlet/filter arrangement and connect up the plugs for the various sensors. I jumped into the driver seat, full of glee and turned the key

After a few coughs it started up and settled to an 1100rpm idle. FUCKING YES!

My joy was, as usual, short lived. I gave the accelerator a few blips and it settled again, only this time the idle was higher. about 1500rpm. I left it to warm up and the idle rose again, to approx 1800rpm. Ball_sacks. Time to plug it in then. On the plus side, the alternator was way quieter than it was previously so thats a step in the right direction.

I wonder if anyone can help me interpret the data my Delphi DS150e clone output? I've annotated my interpretations below, these are probably may be wrong. I began by getting it to output live data from all the sensors I could think might be involved in this malarkey. There are others which I can get data from if required. The below is with the engine running, idling at ~1800rpm with the engine up to temp on the gauge

What jumps out to me is that oxygen sensor S1 has a voltage of zero, and a short term fuel trim of zero. Whereas sensor S2 had a voltage of between 0.1v and 1v and a short term fuel trim of between 25.0 and 26.2. This suggests to me that sensor 1 might be dead or unplugged?

Graphing the data showed it to be resolutely at 0 for both readings. Compare this with live readings for S2 below

I left it idle for a bit and fiddled with buttons, with the AC turned on, the idle dropped to a steady 1500rpm, but on turning the AC off, the idle started to hunt about, rising to approx 1900rpm, then stuttering and dropping to 1000rpm before repeating at ~3 second intervals. Turning the AC back on stopped this hunting and the idle returned to 1500rpm steady.

I got out, and with the engine still running squirted brake cleaner about with zero effect, other than when I squirted it directly down the air intake which (predictably) caused the idle to drop then recover, so I don't think I have an air leak.

Finally, I read the fault codes. I had cleared these the other day and the car was only started tonight so these are 'new' codes 

This tells me O2 sensor S1 is slow to respond/not responding - corroborating the earlier suggestion that S1 is kippered. Do you all agree? Can anyone tell me where Sensor S1 is likely to live? I assume its in the manifold downpipe, pre catalytic converter? Secondly, there are many available on ebay (helpfully the engine is largely a Toyota 2SZ-FE as fitted to the Mk1 Toyota Yaris among others) - they don't state of they are S1 or S2, or am I being stupid and they are the same, and the computer works something out based on the difference between reading 1 and reading 2, except on my car it can't because there is no reading 1?

Finally, and this is mostly directed at @Tubbo - have you replaced either O2 sensor already, and might this be an upstream wiring issue instead of a sensor issue?

Any and all advise gratefully received

 

 

 

 

[Stanky]

After a helpful suggestion from my brother, I swapped the two lambda sensors over and fired it up, the revs rose slowly to 1500 again, but on reading the data I was now getting voltage readings at both sensors.

Since the sensors are not new - they seem to be marked with metallic purple paint suggesting they are secondhand - I have opted to buy one brand new replacement with a view to fitting it in the first/precat position in the manifold. A genuine delphi unit is £60, but a blueprint one was only £22 so I've gone with that.

some multimeter bingo suggests that the loom side of the precat sensor is fine, I get 12v across the pins for heater and ground, and a continuity reading across ground and sensor so I am optimistic that works and its sensor-side thats not happy. The S1 sensor was still not giving a short term fuel trim reading, despite having a voltage of 0.05v which is interesting/annoying and the fault codes returned suggesting the S1 was slow responding.

The precat sensor was quite sooty, suggesting its running rich, which I'm also taking to mean it needs the O2 readings sorting out so it can fuel appropriately. Apparently Daihatsus of this generation have an appetite for O2 sensors generally, and who knows how long these two have been on the car that donated them?

[Tubbo]

I have replaced both O2 sensors at some point with second hand ones from EBay that apparently were from a Sirion Rally 2. Part of the reason was due to an EML which when I read the codes came up with sensor fault. I can’t remember if I still have the original ones or not I will have a look when I get home.

[Tubbo]

When the car originally failed the mot it was idling at about 2500. I took off the throttle body and cleaned it which changed the idle speed to that hunting of between 1000-2000 which you are seeing now. As cleaning it changed what it was doing I thought I must be on the right tracks so I bought a second hand replacement throttle body which then changed it again to a steady 1500 but once revved a few times then brings back that hunting again. It makes me think that this could be where the problem lies???

[Tubbo]

I also tried repeatedly banging my head on the steering wheel which also didn’t resolve the problem.

[Tubbo]

If you unplug the Map sensor the idle speed will drop considerably or if you pull off the little rubber hose connected to the bottom of the map sensor it will drop. I also replaced that but was clutching at straws at this point.

[Stanky]

Thanks for the info @Tubbo! 

I think that the MAP sensor is OK as I'm getting a reading from it, presumably unplugging it defaults is to a 'stock' map and has it ignore sensors, and throws the EML on? Whereas with it plugged in, its trying to compensate for the o2 readings from the lambda sensor thats not playing nicely, and making it run rich. Is anyone able to comment on my logic here?

I've read that the Idle Control Valves in the throttle bodies can gum up too, but its not clear what the symptoms of this might be. I'm thwarted in this respect because the ICV bit of the throttle body is held on with 2x 'safety' torx screws - they have 5 lobes, not the usual 6. I don't have a set of these, but will order some, unless any other shiters happen to have some I could borrow since I'm unlikely to need them again (famous last words).

What I find unlikely however is that two totally separate throttle bodies might have utterly kippered ICVs. Its a Denso part, shared with Mk1 Yarises, Daihatsu YRVs, Copens and several other cars, I suppose its POSSIBLE that both ICVs are kaputt but seems unlikely, especially as the symptoms are identical.

Out of interest, how long did you own the Sirion @Tubbo? Did you have it running 'normally' during your tenure or as far as you know has it been like this potentially since the last MOT pass in 2019? I'm determined to get to the bottom of this and have it running correctly again!

[Tubbo]

Had the car for about 2 years ish I think. I actually didn’t notice how high it was idling until it failed the mot for it (how very observant 😂) However, it got through the first mot no problems and I wasn’t driving it a great deal as I have several cars so don’t think the problem has been around too long. It’s always been pretty faultless and always started first turn of the key.  I am sure you will get to the bottom of this but it is really frustrating.

[Stanky]

Thanks, info is fairly scarce on them & I wondered if it jut had a naturally high idle, since the redline is high too. I didn;t know if this was a 'thing' or not though.

I've gone crazy and ordered another throttle body from a YRV (which looks identical as far as I can see) for £20 in case I have managed to damage the ICV somehow. I googled 'symptoms of fauly idle control valve' and it sounds very, very similar to what I'm seeing with the Sirion - so for the sake of £20 its something to rule out. I plan to fit it 'as-is' rather than cleaning it up like I did with this one, apparently they can be a bit sensitive in the ICV department when it comes to brake/carb cleaner. I didn't realise and was squirting brake cleaner around with gay abandon when I had it in pieces the other day. This may have not helped matters...

Thanks again for the additional info - I'll keep you posted. 

[Tubbo]

So, I’ve been thinking about this today and when I bought the car it was being sold as spares and repairs due to the brakes being borked. However, I still drove it home about 50 miles as the brakes still worked but you had to put your foot right to the floor before it did anything. Anyway I bled the brakes and put new brakes on the front which resolved the problem.

I noticed on the mot list it says about little reverse travel on the brake pedal. Is there any possibility (and just tell me if I am being stupid because I am no mechanic) that there could be a vacuum leak on the brake booster/servo??? And would/could this effect the idle speed???

Anyway I have recently acquired a YRV workshop manual (which also covers the Sirion) in the manual the Sirion is listed as M101 or Storia. I have taken some pics of things that could be of interest.

See below and good luck 🤞 

[Tubbo]

[Tubbo]

[Talbot]

This idle speed issue sounds very similar to the issues that the Wagon AARRGGHH+ that I roffled just over a year ago was suffering with.  I think that was fixed with a replacement throttle body, but @scdan4will know for sure as he fixed it.

[Stanky]

Thanks @Tubbo - the errors its throwing are P0130, P0133 and P0135 - all suggesting that it might be a result of the idle issue, rather than the cause. Very odd. I'll replace the front one as matter of course and I have a replacement TB on its way to me next week - swapping this over is a 15 minute job so that should at least be quick and easy.

I spent some time earlier with the angry grinder to see what I could see on the nearside inner arch. I managed to transform this

into this

The good news is that the metal around this is pretty much clean, the bad news is that the hole goes into the boot/seat back area. After discussion with @tobyd, I plan to have him weld the smaller hole from the boot side, this is about the length of my index finger and doesn't look too bad. essentially it will be plated over. Then, we can cut and let in a new bit of 1mm sheet into the bigger hole on the arch side and tidy it all up.  Once done, we can drill a hole, pump in a load of Vactan, zinc primer and wax from both the inner arch side, and the boot side to hopefully get decent coverage and then plug the holes with rubber grommets/bungs. 

The other side can be done after this, its right against the garage wall so I don't want to cut a load of metal out of there too just yet - if we can weld up this side first then turn the car around and have a serious look at the drivers side it will be far more accessible for both cutting and welding.

 

[Stanky]

Idle issue: reloaded.

As suggested further up by @Tubbo and in the other thread by @red5, I started the car up, let it idle and then looked at the brake master cylinder. 

First of all, with it idling at about 1100rpm, I sprayed brake cleaner around the general area. There was no change in idle speed.

next I got in the drivers seat and pressed the brake pedal several times. Doing this caused the idle speed to rise to approx 1500 rpm, before dropping back to 1100. I revved it out to about 3000 rpm s couple of times, then let the idle settle back to normal before repeating the test. Again, revs rose to about 1500, then dropped back a bit. The next time I tried, the revs rose then stayed at 1500.

what does this mean? 

incidentally, removing and attempting to blow through the PCv valve has zero effect, it's like it's solid plastic. Should I be able to blow through from the rocker cover side? The article above suggests I should be able to?

[Talbot]

29 minutes ago, Stanky said:

pressed the brake pedal several times. Doing this caused the idle speed to rise to approx 1500 rpm, before dropping back to 1100. I revved it out to about 3000 rpm s couple of times, then let the idle settle back to normal before repeating the test. Again, revs rose to about 1500, then dropped back a bit.

That usually indicates that the engine is running too richly, as when you pump the brake, it allows air into the inlet manifold, thus weakening the mixture delivered to the engine.  It's quite a good measure actually, as when you allow that extra air in, if the revs rise it was rich, and if they fall it was lean.  The fact that the effect got less the more times you did it suggests that as the engine warms, the mixture is becoming less rich, so there's less effect.

You can replicate it thus:  Take the pipe off the servo and shove your thumb over the end.  Now start the engine, allow it to idle.  Start letting a bit of air in.  The revs will likely rise from what you've said.  Let more air in, the revs will eventually peak, and letting more and more air in will cause the revs to drop and the engine stall.  That indicates the engine was rich.

If instead as you let air in at the beginning the revs just drop and drop, the mixture was lean in the first place.

Do these have a cold-start injector?  That is possibly jammed open / overfuelling, hence causing high idle and rich running?

[red5]

Pcv is one way...

Disconnect servo and blank. Manifold end if you can.  Any loss of brake fluid? 

Post results. 

 

 

 

[red5]

Remove crank/rocker breather. Block at inlet side. Results?

[Stanky]

34 minutes ago, Talbot said:

That usually indicates that the engine is running too richly, as when you pump the brake, it allows air into the inlet manifold, thus weakening the mixture delivered to the engine.  It's quite a good measure actually, as when you allow that extra air in, if the revs rise it was rich, and if they fall it was lean.  The fact that the effect got less the more times you did it suggests that as the engine warms, the mixture is becoming less rich, so there's less effect.

You can replicate it thus:  Take the pipe off the servo and shove your thumb over the end.  Now start the engine, allow it to idle.  Start letting a bit of air in.  The revs will likely rise from what you've said.  Let more air in, the revs will eventually peak, and letting more and more air in will cause the revs to drop and the engine stall.  That indicates the engine was rich.

If instead as you let air in at the beginning the revs just drop and drop, the mixture was lean in the first place.

Do these have a cold-start injector?  That is possibly jammed open / overfuelling, hence causing high idle and rich running?

based on the state of the 1st lambda sensor, its definitely running rich - very sooty! This might be that its not run very far recently though? It certainly SMELLS like its running rich

20 minutes ago, red5 said:

Pcv is one way...

Disconnect servo and blank. Manifold end if you can.  Any loss of brake fluid? 

Post results. 

 

 

 

No loss of brake fluid, PCV has just been cleaned with brake fluid and now is clear - i can blow through it with my MIGHTY LUNGS now. Still idles high though. HRemoved pipe from brake servo (the large black disc shaped thing the master cylinder mounts to, right?) and plugged the hose with a spark plug, with this disconnected idle was higher, around 1800rpm. On removing the hose from the servo, there was a noticable 'POP' and hissing of vacuum being filled - it was hard to remove the hose, presumably as the servo was under vacuum from running previously?

18 minutes ago, red5 said:

Remove crank/rocker breather. Block at inlet side. Results?

Removed, plugged end of hose with spark plug, no difference to idle - sat at 1500rpm.

For reference, all hoses have tight fitting hose clamps attached. Also, at idle of 1500, putting the AC on take it down to more like 1100rpm. Didn't see any hunting of revs today, though I didn;t let it idle very long.

[red5]

Can you show me the idle valve mounting,?

Also, the throttle butterfly in closed position. 

[Stanky]

1 hour ago, red5 said:

Can you show me the idle valve mounting,?

Also, the throttle butterfly in closed position. 

Is the idle valve mounting from the spare throttle body adequate? I can't get to the innards of it currently as I lack the anti-tamper torx bit to undo the screws. I can get a pic of the icv mechanism if I take the coolant chamber bit off though?

I can get pics in the morning of the outside of the spare throttle body icv and the throttle butterfly of the in-situ throttle body. The butterfly sits closed, there is a bit of slack in the cable, I can dial in more slack though if needed? Is this with engine running, or not btw? 

[Stanky]

11 hours ago, red5 said:

Can you show me the idle valve mounting,?

Also, the throttle butterfly in closed position. 

Idle control valve:

Throttle body butterfly in closed position (engine off)

You can just see the bypass duct at 12 o'clock here, this goes through the ICV and comes out below the throttle butterfly, and airflow is controlled (I believe) by the actual valve opening and closing within the ICV bit of the throttle body. I can remove the housing using the 4 regular philips screws to expose the end of the ICV if it helps, but I can't take the actual ICV off (the black bit with the Denso logo on in pic 2) as this is whats held on with the 5-lobe torx screws