Mason the Leaky LS400 [long opening post alert!]

[rantingYoof]

Hai,

 

Noticed this forum thanks to fatharris posting his MG resurrection thread on Faceache. Had a browse and it seems like this forum's ethos is applicable to most of my entire car history, so yeah, hello.

 

Anyway, a while ago my 9-3 Aero began making nasty noisy flywheel noises and I found myself wanting to bail out, and therefore needing a cheap, reliable car I could go back-and-forth to work in for a few months while I saved up money to buy something a bit more permanent and respectable.

 

So I bought a 1995 Lexus LS400 for a little over £900. As yer do.

 

On the outside it's a bit battle-scarred, with evidence of a simultaneous front and rear-end knock (possibly from a mis-judged attempt at parking it), and a bit of wheel arch rust. On the inside it's pretty damn immaculate for a 20 year old car with none of the usual split leather on the bolster of the driver's seat.

 

Anyway, the car does have a few niggly issues, but one that I decided to have a proper nose around today was the water in the boot.

 

I'm hoping that an experienced 'Shiter may be able to give me some pointers here. I'm not necessarily trying to FIX the problem unless it can be done very quickly and very simply - I'm a knuckle-dragger when it comes to working on cars - but it would be handy to sell it on with the problem at least identified so the buyer can work out whether it's a project they want to take on.

 

So for those who are mechanically minded but not familiar with LS400s - the sunroof isn't designed to be 100% waterproof, so there are four holes that provide drainage for any water that makes it in. These holes are in each corner of the sunroof - here is the front-left one:

 

There is also one in the rear-left corner, that is unfortunately not accessible without, apparently, removing lots of head-lining or bodywork, which is a lot of faff and bother...

 

According to various forums, these holes can become clogged up, which leads to leakage, however the most common leakage is actually into the cabin, from the headlining and down onto the seats/a poor passenger. This is not the case in this instance as the interior is spot-on.

 

No, in this instance, ALL OF THE WATER ends up in the boot...

 

You don't even wanna KNOW what the spare-wheel looks like. The amount of mould and SARS and other relatively nasty looking things growing on the actual alloy itself makes for shallow-breathing whenever you go near it.

 

Anyway, as you can see the bits in the boot - the full-size unused Pirelli P6000 spare attached to a hideously corroded alloy, the wheel-changing kit and styro-foam packaging this all came in, along with some rubber bits that are used to seat the wheel in place - have all been relocated to the greenhouse / garage to dry out slowly, so I can then get around to detoxifying them using a tactical nuclear strike from orbit.

 

The lining in what I will refer to semi-euphemistically as the CENTRE ZONE is drenched. Peel back some of the carpet lining on the passenger-side, and you can see one way water is getting in...

 

The green-ish plastic pipe is what the water from the drainage hole is supposed to use - the pipe then goes through the hole in the metal floor you can see and simply drains onto the road.

 

This was dry when I opened the boot at first, and the little puddle is the result of me using a bottle with a nozzle-attachment (FNAR) to spray water into the sun-roof water reservoir in the direction of the left-rear drainage hole and then dashing to see where it was coming in. After a couple of vigorous sprays, the water dripped out - NOT from the end of the greenish pipe, before you bellow at me, but from the black plastic tubing/piping that looks suspiciously bodged...(also note the GLORIOUS RUST!!!)

 

I've got no idea what this is, or does, but it goes down to the floor of the boot and then goes to the rear of the car, so logically, I'm thinking the wiring for the rear lights. The pipes/tubing is cracked in several places, which is worrying, as the water appeared to be partially running down this and then dripping into the boot. However there have been no short-outs and the rear lights work perfectly, so I'm at a loss.

 

So yeah, I've identified one way water is getting in, but this does not explain how the CENTRE ZONE has become a trendy metropolis for all the latest bacteria you won't find in a Yakult. Peeling the upholstery back a little further revealed something interesting though...

 

Standing water - not a lot - on the metal bodywork in the centre-zone too...

 

I got a watering can and dumped a sudden amount of water over the roof towards the back of the car. I did this several times, with the boot open and the boot closed. A lot of water got in via the suspect broken sunroof drainage hole, but I could see no further water entering the boot in the CENTRE ZONE at all, despite the deluge that was far heavier than any rainfall you would get.

 

As you can see, the water from the sunroof drainage pipe built up quite rapidly...

 

But the CENTRE ZONE did not get any wetter. I mopped up the water that was there with kitchen towel, and then noticed this. What is this? The LS400 does not have rear wipers or a rear windscreen washer. It does have a brake-light at the top of it...but this looks like it's transporting something from one part of the car to another. Guesses on a postcard?

 

I got rid of the water in the other well too, by pushing it repeatedly up and over the hole. It drained out quite quickly and I then dried that with kitchen towel too.

 

To dry the wheel-well out I realised I would probably have to take out the entire piece of carpet and do something with it (I don't know though, because I am a moron). For now, some newspapers and three bricks will get up a lot of the wetness and hopefully leave it damp enough to dry itself, as long as no more water gets in. Without knowing HOW it's getting in, this is hard to prevent...

 

 

Another thought I've had is that is the water in the other well building up so much that it overflows to the CENTRE ZONE? I don't think this is the case, because there is no evidence of water on other parts of the upholstery, and it would have to be pretty deep to get this bad, and surely it would all drain out of the hole before it got this far?

 

I got the car in June. During the summer, I thought a little bit of water had got in, and the heat was producing lots of condensation. This isn't the case either.

 

I know dampness doesn't go away and a little bit of water in a closed boot will create a lasting dampness that will simply fester away - especially if no air is getting to it.

 

So....yeah. There's obviously a problem with the piping in the drainage hole. It's possibly broken or split (how would this happen?!) or someone has tinkered with it in the past and made it borked.

 

But the CENTRE ZONE? I have literally no idea whatsoever.

 

Anyone have any good ideas?

 

 

Your payment for anything even remotely helpful will be a list of my previously owned cars. Good for a giggle, trust me. There are three Volvos in the list and three Rovers on the list, for a start...

[MarvinsMom]

firt off, welcome to the forum!

 

our rover 820 cooop had the same thing going on, its drain holes came out behind the back bumper, and it the back of the front wheel arches. in all cases the drain holes were full of crud, causing water to back up in the drainage pipes which then leaked out of the joints from the small diameter pipe inside the car, and the larger diameter pipe draining to the outside.

 

we managed to blow ours out by shoving some spare replacement washer pipe into the sunroof drain holes and the blowing through the pipe from an air compressor and air regulator thing, you know, the thing that does the blowing up of your tires.

 

que a squirt of yukky crap out from out of the underside of the car, we went round with some plumbers putty afterwards around the joints on each drainage pipe afterwards. that actually solved most of the problem of water getting into that car,

[dollywobbler]

Ah, welcome. You're too new to recognise that the Autoshite solution would simply be to drill a hole in the wheel well. Sorted.

[MarvinsMom]

we did take the rubber drain plug bung things out of the floor of the Rover at one point when buying petrol, it was like taking the plug of a full bath! or it made an aging Rover look like it was incontinent.....

 

took ages for all the water sloshing around to drain out (we had already taken out the carpets and sound deadening, it took several months to dry out in the greenhouse)

[billyboy406v6]

Welcome to the forum, leave the bung out and carry on driving, it a crude and simple fix, like a few of us on here !

[beko1987]

Welcome, ace first post, I need to read it again properly!

 

In your situation, I would buy a tube of tigerseal and seal the sunroof up, enjoy a dry, non constantly fogging windows winter. Google the shit out of the issue and wait and see if it stays dry, then unpick the tigerseal in the summer and have a crack.

 

Or just leave it sealed up, one less thing to worry about

[chaseracer]

...the Autoshite solution would simply be to drill a hole in the wheel well. Sorted.

 

This worked well with my Dyane, though in the front floors, given the car's arse-high angle of attack.  Oh, and... don't TigerSeal the sunroof - use gaffer tape, like a PROPA SHYTA.

 

Welcome along 

[Bren]

Install a water butt in the boot.

 

Tell prospective purchaser it is a state of the art LPG installation.

[vulgalour]

The LS400 is a nice old bus.  If I were you, I'd get as much of the boot interior trim out as possible to keep things dry and to help identify water routes.  You seem on the right track to finding the answer, water leaks are a pain in the arse to locate and even more so to resolve.  Water will always seek the lowest point so you'll probably find your damp centre point (chortle) is just water doing its thing.

 

It should serve you well over the winter and when you come to punt it on someone will buy it if the engine is any good, which they normally are.

[Timewaster]

Is it a totally daft idea to strip as much trim out as possible and dust flour or talc or similar in the boot to see the direction the water is coming from?

 

 

Yes, yes it is a totally daft idea.

 

Let me know how it goes!

[rantingYoof]

Man I like this place. Your solutions are sooooo my thing. You know, as in "Ignore it, it's an onboard water-feature"...

 

It's likely I'll be looking to sell it in the next few weeks, couple of months at most, because work will be changing to incorporate more driving. I'll get mileage expenses that'll just cover its costs, but to maximise the potential pay increase  I'll be seeking something that'll get me more profit from the expenses than a 4.0 V8 that's running richer than it should.

 

 

Yeah, that's it's other "thing". When the engine is cold, and you start it up, it idles at around 1,900-2,000rpm for a short while, then gradually subsides down to around 1,200rpm over the course of three minutes or so, and then after four to five minutes it's at the normal Lexus silent and smooth tickover of 550-600rpm.

 

After installing a new coolant temperature sensor (bit of a faff thanks to its positioning), and realising the air filter was actually new (dodgy dealer in being truthful shocker), we did a flash test and the codes it threw up were indicative of the O2 sensor heater element being borked.

 

Sooo when the engine is cold, the heater element isn't working at all, or is throwing up signals that makes the car think it's buried in Siberian permafrost, so it runs rich and revs high to warm up quickly.

 

The local Toyota indie said that even he wouldn't replace it with anything that wasn't sourced from Lexus, and I'd be looking at £250 or so in parts alone, so I've adopted the approach of letting the car warm up before driving off.

 

This is the other reason for shifting it on in a few weeks time. I need a car I can hop in, start up, and drive off quickly. If you set off in the Lexus when it's idling at 2,000rpm it's a little hairy, as it wants to creep at 30+mph, so yeah. Not ideal, especially if it's gonna be icy and I'm going to be doing lots of rural driving.

 

Thanks for the ideas re pumping some air through it and/or gunging it up with filler/gaffer tape. They sound like the sort of low-tech solutions even a complete chump like myself can implement.

[Pillock]

Get locked in the boot with a torch and have someone drive through a carwash.

 

Even I don't know if this is a serious suggestion or not.

[beko1987]

I stripped the zx out to try and pinpoint why the rear floor was full of water last Christmas. Never did work it out (and it wasnt the subroof) but its fucking noisy, and your phone soon does one on the first corner when you forget and put it where the passenger seat normally is.

 

Never did find the leak, i reckon it was a door seal as I had them all off to get the carpet out and its been bone dry ever since...

[chaseracer]

Get locked in the boot with a torch and have someone drive through a carwash.

 

Even I don't know if this is a serious suggestion or not.

 

From you, Chris?  Entirely reasonable!

[D Spares & Tyres]

I stripped the zx out to try and pinpoint why the rear floor was full of water last Christmas. Never did work it out (and it wasnt the subroof) but its fucking noisy, and your phone soon does one on the first corner when you forget and put it where the passenger seat normally is.

Never did find the leak, i reckon it was a door seal as I had them all off to get the carpet out and its been bone dry ever since...

Have a look behind the plastic in the boot that supports the parcel shelf. They tend to rot there

[Station]

There is nothing better than finally fixing water leaks inside a car.

 

There is nothing worse than going round a corner and having a litre of water pour all over your head.

[D Spares & Tyres]

I like the Lexus. Never really noticed them but I heard the most beautiful noise the other day. Thought it was something american but turned round to see a lowered LS400 with a large exhaust ☺

[MrDuke]

This is probably a thoroughly retarded suggestion, but are the rear lights leaking? That would possibly flow straight down into the CENTRE ZONE and sit there.

 

On the subject of sunrooves (yes, that's the right* spelling) the CiTW/Womble/Eddy/me Cherry used to only leak during light showers, but during thunderous downpours it never seemed to let a drop through. Also, do NOT use duct tape to seal it over winter, there are few things more nerve-wracking than trying to remove several months' adhesive residue with a stanley blade and a 'non-scratch' scourer without damaging the paint. Don't ask me how I know.

[dollywobbler]

 

There is nothing worse than going round a corner and having a litre of water pour all over your head.

 

You're quite wrong. It is very much worse if the litre of water pours over your other half's head. She still doesn't like Volvos.

[Timewaster]

Just to add that the water is usually cold, stale and filthy!

[MarvinsMom]

just wear a hat.

 

we had a maestro that had a leaky sunroof.

 

it didn;t bother me, as i had the sense* to wear a hat when in the car. my other half however, wasn't so fortunate.,...

[forddeliveryboy]

I started to add a reply mentioning aerials and bootseals, then read someone above has too, so it's a bit irrelevant. But I have learnt that early LS400s are non-interference engines and they help clear their door mirrors of water with the use of ultrasonics. Next we need to see pics of the whole car, preferably with diseased spare wheel too.

[hairnet]

paint the bits in them pics thats rusty

 

biiiiig coathanger down the sunroof drains

 

sell to eddyramrod he wants one

 

kill holly johnson - oh no thats another thread

 

[rantingYoof]

This is probably a thoroughly retarded suggestion, but are the rear lights leaking? That would possibly flow straight down into the CENTRE ZONE and sit there.

 

Worth a look, probably. Not sure the water is coming from that direction but I'm at a complete loss so I'll investigate!

 

 

I started to add a reply mentioning aerials and bootseals, then read someone above has too, so it's a bit irrelevant. But I have learnt that early LS400s are non-interference engines and they help clear their door mirrors of water with the use of ultrasonics. Next we need to see pics of the whole car, preferably with diseased spare wheel too.

 

I've tipped water over the aerial hole (PROPA SMART ME) and it didn't enter the boot at all. The sound system is between the boot and the rear seats so it was a good shout.

 

My LS400 is literally the first of the revised models registered from January '95 onwards, which is when Lexus decided that non-interference was for LOSERS and that cambelt intervals were something their customers should fear.

 

So the cambelt intervals became 60k and five years.

 

Mine has a sticker on the engine proudly stating that the cambelt was last changed at 64k. In the year 2000.

 

There are no stamps in the book or any paperwork that suggests it's been done since then. So yeah. BALLS OUT MOTORING RIGHT HERE.

[Junkman]

I'd be worried if there was no water in the boot of my Peugeot.

Honestly, I'd start investigating why it's dry.

[inconsistant]

I had sunroof grief last winter and got lots of helpful* suggestions on here so ill pass them on:

Cover entire roof with duct tape

Seal sunroof with mastic

Wrap cling film around roof to seal sunroof

Fit a vinyl roof over sunroof (brown if possible)

Spot weld a rectangle of mild steel over the sunroof

Wear one of those umbrella hats when driving

 

Apologies for all if the above, I feel your pain.

Sensible suggestion:

 

Push a bicycle brake cable down the drain holes to check for blockage.

 

Also welcome.

[rantingYoof]

Next we need to see pics of the whole car, preferably with diseased spare wheel too.

 

I've whacked some photos in the garage to avoid me whoring it in the thread here, but you are more than welcome to a full-on hold-yer-breath shot of the diseased alloy:

[billyboy406v6]

My v6 Pug used to leak through the rear lights, whipped them off, cleaned green slime off and refitted with clear silicone instead of manky shrunken rubber gaskets.

[rantingYoof]

Lots and lots and lots of digging around today (no pics, sorry).

 

The water coming in to the side wells (yup, today I discovered it does this on both sides of the car! WIN! No, wait...the other thing)...is nearly certainly because of a blockage in the sunroof draining pipe where the green plastic tube meets the little tube that takes water from the sunroof well and into the pillar of the car. This blockage causes the water to back-up and then go around this seal (which is probably not over-engineered to buggery like the rest of the car)...the water trickles down the outside of this until it reaches a random hole that we've found in the metal, at the top of the boot after removing all of the fibreglass. It trickles in here and then down the edge of the interior frame inside the boot and collects at the bottom.

 

We have removed the rubber bung so that the water drains immediately. Unfortunately it's been doing this for a long time as there is enough rust to almost poke your finger through into the rear wheel arch. This isn't structural but it's still smelly because it's rust and I hate that (I've owned a Mk1 MR2 which I got on eBay unseen so rust and myself have a relationship whereby one of us shits their pants upon discovery of the other, I'll leave you to guess who's who).

 

Anyway, we're going to try blasting this blockage out using compressed air from the boot-end of the car. It's worth doing even if it does nothing useful at all, because at least then a blockage can be ruled out.

 

As for the water in the CENTRE ZONE, this is a bloody mystery. There is now NO upholstery in the boot at all save for the driver's side fibreglass. The metal in the spare-wheel well (presumably right over the exhaust?) is exposed, and when we lifted the fibreglass material out we noted that this metal had standing water on it.

 

This was dried, and then the car subject to hosepipe brutality (a term I've just realised I wouldn't ever dare Google-image-whack), and upon further inspection no ingress of water was found, apart from a trickle which appeared magically out of thin-sodding-air.

 

HOWEVER! HOWEVER!

 

Upon driving home and unloading the upholstery to put in the garage to dry out properly, I noticed while the boot-lid was up that one of the two studs that seemed to be holding the number-plate in place was more raised than the other.

 

I fiddled with it and realised I could unscrew it with my hand. The top of the stud broke off to reveal a normal screw, which I promptly undid entirely. I moved the number plate to reveal a hole. Of course, there's a hole where this screw went in, but above this and closer to the centre, was another hole.

 

So this wasn't the original number plate! And it was affixed using differently positioned screws! And one of these screws wasn't tightened! So....water goes behind the 'plate and into either the original hole or the new one...?

 

All tightened back up now, with newspaper in the boot and a close eye on this.

 

Seriously, it feels like I'm on the verge of curing man-aids. How bloody hard should it be to trace water back to its source? If three idiots driving (marvellous) estate cars can do it in Africa I should be able to do it in a car slightly smaller than that continent....

[mercrocker]

You would (not) be surprised at the amount of leakage a hole like that could cause.   Major contribution to my Minor boot-floor rot was traced to seepage around a bloody badge on the lid.   Heavy rain just poured in around a missing stud on the back of the badge filling not only the boot  floor but also the void between the inner and outer bootlid skins.  It still bloody leaked from somewhere else that I have yet to establish but that was the main one.  As recommended elsewhere in this thread I just drilled four bloody great holes in the bottom of the boot area in the end as well.