Driving pre 1970 cars on...

[scooters]

Modern roads can be terrifying when you are driving an older car. I'm generalising when I say pre 1970..There are plenty of cars built before 1970 that this doesn't necessarily apply to as well as plenty of cars built post 1970 which it does.

http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/Boston-pensioner-Anne-Pattrick-dies-M1-motorway/story-21948074-detail/story.html

Last weekend this couple were involved in a pile up on the M1 in their Ford Anglia. A 30 year old man was arrested at the scene. The crash involved an Mx5, and LDV, and a Ka as well.

According to John S of Practical Classics fame who new the victims they were hurled through the windscreen, the Anglia being pre seat belt, and didn't stand a chance.

I've refrained from commenting on Facebook but it does bring a broader point. until 2010 I clocked around 50k motorway miles a year and doing that mileage you see every type of Nympton driving and learn quite quickly that defensive is the way to a longer life. Sadly no out of defensive driving will save you from the idiot and I suspect that is what happened here.

However had they been driving a vehicle with seat belts fitted Anne might have survived. I like to think that they knew the risks involved and were making an informed decision.

This sort of incident effects all of us who are interested in older cars and just wait for the clamour for 'removing old death traps' from the roads whilst little mention will be made of the fact that it appears to have been caused by a selfish and aggressive driver.

 

I have to admit that I've always been very wary of driving certain types of cars on the motorway. My old Morris Minor had no seat belts and was made in 1954..long before the dawn of the British Motorway. Driving it on a busy Motorway was always a terrifying experienced mostly because you felt so exposed. Now i used to own a Westfield and never felt as exposed as I did in the Morris. I had similar feelings driving my old series land rover on the motorway. I think it is a combination of things but you become remarkably aware of the lack of power and that it is this inability to pull away quickly from trouble that contributes to my feeling vulnerable.

 

Despite yearning after a 50 s car I'm well aware that the lack of safety features does put me off somewhat. Non collapsible steering columns, no crumple zones, no passenger cage, no seat belts, no dual brake system. Etc etc. Whilst these won't protect you from a numptie they will go some way to improving your chances of walking away.

 

It's no accident that my 1982 chod is a 244.. I know that unlike some of the cars I have owned I can put the kids in the back of it. The in laws don't bat an eyelid when I put them in the 244..They would raise an eyebrow when I used to put them in the Triumph 2000...

 

I have to admit that any chod buying I do is often influenced by the safety of the vehicle for carrying passengers. Especially kids and that seat belts ..with proper mounting are a double plus essential.

 

hopefully this tragedy will remind people why dangerous driving is unacceptable.

[tooSavvy]

I see all 'types' driving all sorts and vintages of trolley..... with a 'loose dog' in the back/rear parcel.

 

Possibly being thwackked on the back of the head with a baseball bat might conjour up a sharp reminder as to what happens if the dog doesn't STOP... from 60mph... when you do!!

 

 

TS

[dollywobbler]

That incident has made me think twice about seatbelts. Westminster and H van didn't have them. Indeed, they'd been retro fitted to the Morris Minor my wife crashed and, as she rolled it, definitely played a part in preventing serious injury. 

 

But I'll still happily drive the 2CV on motorways, despite its wet paper bag levels of crash protection and 60mph cruising speed. A Series II Minor though, not sure I'd be brave enough to drive one of those on a motorway. They're hopeless! Hopelessly slow and woeful at stopping. I know the 2CV's stoppers have saved me from trouble a few times. (though they've also caused it - a Mondeo smashed into the 2CV as it didn't expect me to stop that quickly when carved up by a truck on a roundabout).

[fordperv]

The one that boils my pee is when you see the back of a car loaded up with kids who aren't wearing seat belts and are jumping around, all it takes is one idiot to pull out on them and serious injury will follow.

 

That anglia accident is a very sad one indeed, I compare driving a pre seatbelt car to be on the same level of danger as riding a motorbike

[derskine]

I've similar worries about all my cars, the Renault 18 perhaps being the most concerning.

I've retrofitted front seatbelts to my Cortina and won't be having anyone in the back where there are no seatbelts.

Other idiots on the road do concern me, a lot.

[AlabamaShrimp]

My mk1 fiesta doesn't have back seat belts. So when I knew we were having a child I bought a mk2 that did. If I think about it fiesta's probably would not be very good in a crash (when the mk1 was hit on the front it exploded but still drove home) but, depending on how and where you're hit and at what speed a new car can be just as bad.

 

Will admit I don't like driving them on the motorway though, with 957cc getting to 70 can take a very long time and the breaks are weak. Being sat in the first land surrounded by trucks can be an experience

[Lukas]

The biggest problem is, that you can´t always avoid the mistakes other drivers make. No matter how good your driving skills may be.

 

But what comes to my mind is: Old cars get more and more unsafe. Why? Because rust is weakening their body structure and modern cars are quite hard opponents. A safe 1980s car (Volvo, Merc) may have been safe in the 1980s because other cars were weak and had, like Dollywobbler said before, "wet paper bag levels of crash protection". Nowadays, every small supermini is a lot stiffer and stronger than an old executive car. So the old safe cars became relatively more unsafe because all other cars have become a lot stiffer and stronger.

[scooters]

2 cvs benefitted throughout their production period. I wouldn't fancy an early one on the motorway! Every citroen I've ever owned including the ancient family Ami8 had superb anchors.

 

Modern drivers reactions to older cars are sometimes frustrating. Doesn't happen in the CX because it looks like a spaceship but in the 244 folk pull out on you 200 yards ahead because they think...old car won't be going fast to suddenly find you in their rear giving them the lights. The 244 may have a 4 speed box but it will do 100mph. .A S2 moggie will do 56mph. .more than capable of killing you.

When driving the S2 Moggy I would get frustrated in town at some other drivers aggression towards older cars...tailgating and not giving you room. In the end i put a notice on the bumper:

"The brakes on this vehicle are 60 years old. If you can read this then you are too close....its your insurance premium!' Seemed to do the trick

[scooters]

The biggest problem is, that you can´t always avoid the mistakes other drivers make. No matter how good your driving skills may be.

 

But what comes to my mind is: Old cars get more and more unsafe. Why? Because rust is weakening their body structure and modern cars are quite hard opponents. A safe 1980s car (Volvo, Merc) may have been safe in the 1980s because other cars were weak and had, like Dollywobbler said before, "wet paper bag levels of crash protection". Nowadays, every small supermini is a lot stiffer and stronger than an old executive car. So the old safe cars became relatively more unsafe because all other cars have become a lot stiffer and stronger.

Yes and no

 

You can't avoid other drivers but any car with that amount of structural rust wouldn't be on the road as it would not have an MOT and one would hope owners of mot exempt cars would be sensible.

 

I've seen 10 year old Merc s with dangerous amounts of rust and 40 year old cars with none. The sort of structural rust you are describing is pretty much non existent in the UK due to the mot check.

 

you crash anything over 50 mph you will likely get hurt. The difference is how robust the passenger area is and how effective the belts and airbags etc are.

 

However. This thread is more to make the point about seat belts in older vehicles and cars designed prior to the building of motorways not having the power or brakes to compete with modern traffic.

[dave21478]

The biggest problem is, that you can´t always avoid the mistakes other drivers make. No matter how good your driving skills may be.

 

But what comes to my mind is: Old cars get more and more unsafe. Why? Because rust is weakening their body structure and modern cars are quite hard opponents. A safe 1980s car (Volvo, Merc) may have been safe in the 1980s because other cars were weak and had, like Dollywobbler said before, "wet paper bag levels of crash protection". Nowadays, every small supermini is a lot stiffer and stronger than an old executive car. So the old safe cars became relatively more unsafe because all other cars have become a lot stiffer and stronger.

This.

Patches on the sills and a bit of washing machine side panel welded into the floor will pass an MOT because all he does is tap it with a small hammer, but the way that section of the vehicle reacts in an accident will have been altered, almost certainly for the worse. Then add in the downward plummet in quality of aftermarket steering, suspension and brake components and you are left with a car that is simply not as good as it used to be when it was new.

 

 

Personally, I dont worry about it. I know this will sound like either macho bullshit or hardcore depression, but I dont fear dying at all and will carry on doing as I do today with no thought for tomorrow.

[dollywobbler]

I can't even say I necessarily drive more safely in the 2CV though. The other day, I came around a bend and there was an idiot in a modern 4x4, on my side of the road as he'd cut the bend. They say you should always drive in a manner that allows you to stop in the space you can see. I certainly wasn't doing that. The other driver definitely wasn't doing that! He only got away with it because our reactions were both very sharp (we both swerved rather than braked) and 2CVs are very, very narrow (there was even a barrier at the side of the road here, I had nowhere to go really). Certainly, I'm far more observant in the 2CV. It doesn't even have a radio. When I'm driving it, I'm pretty much 100% focused on not binning it and like a motorcyclist, I watch other road users like a hawk. 

 

And it's a good point about corrosion. An MOT means nothing. Patches on the surface, seriously weakened metal in places you can't necessarily check. An old car could be hopeless if involved in a smash. A solid old classic might be even worse. Crumple zones exist for a reason. 

 

We acknowledge the risk and accept it. I could drive all proper Institute of Anal Motorists in the safest car ever constructed and still be killed in a collision. 

[Asimo]

I see all 'types' driving all sorts and vintages of trolley..... with a 'loose dog' in the back/rear parcel.

 

Possibly being thwackked on the back of the head with a baseball bat might conjour up a sharp reminder as to what happens if the dog doesn't STOP... from 60mph... when you do!!

 

 

TS

I recall an accident report relating to just this from the 1970s.

Morris Minor, driver wearing belts (Extremely unusual in those days) hits a wall and the driver has her neck broken by the corgi that habitually rode on the rear shelf under the window.

[jonny69]

Very sad indeed, and close to home since I'm an Anglia driver.

 

I see how people act around classic and vintage cars on the motorways and the utterly stupid often deliberate things they do and I have little to no doubt in my mind that the other driver was the cause of this.

[NorfolkNWeigh]

I recall an accident report relating to just this from the 1970s.

Morris Minor, driver wearing belts (Extremely unusual in those days) hits a wall and the driver has her neck broken by the corgi that habitually rode on the rear shelf under the window.

When we were kids, my youngest brother used to sleep on the back shelf of my Dad's Viscount. I suppose the fact no one in the car was strapped in meant it wasn't much more unsafe than sitting on the seat.

 

This thread made me wonder about retro fitting safety features into old cars. Do those Supercharged V8 mk2's and Eagle E-Types have airbags for instance. They have modern dashes,seats and even the ECUs. Are there such things as aftermarket airbags? Would bolting a Mondeo steering wheel to a Cortina ( with sensor etc obvs.) make it more safe?

I remember reading that when the Range Rover and 300 Disco got airbags, they were likely to do more harm than good because of the angle of the wheel wasn't right, this could well be bollocks though.

[alf892]

I regularly drive my 1940s Rover on all sorts of roads but avoid motorways. The speed differential is just too great and I'm not convinced that most drivers realise it until it is too late.

 

By being awake I can compensate for most twats from the front and side........and some people do some AMAZINGLY twattish things. Not much you can do to prevent a rear ender sadly

 

A couple of weeks ago I spotted an A4 approaching quite quick from behind while going through Milton Keynes. He overtook me (dual carriageway) as I got to the give way line on the roundabout and then took the first exit.........he was going quick with understeer and then let off and got oversteer. Very lucky man........all he did was give the kerb a good clout.

 

I keep a pretty good watch in the mirror since getting rear ended a few years ago. I was just approaching a slip road when one of those last minute boys tried to come across  from the outside onto the slip road not realising I was only doing about 45. You don't even get the warning of screeching tyres now..........antilock takes care of that.

 

As someone says earlier crumple zones are there for a reason........

 

Crumpled car = occupants in better nick

No crumple zone may=minor damage but the occupants are going to feel it!

 

So.........I accept the risk but drive very defensively/avoid fast roads to minimise that risk. It does involve a bit of route planning but invariably it is a nice way to travel.

 

It is also a much less stressful way to drive............I make it easy for the idiots to get past me so that they can have their accident with someone else.

[mercrocker]

Desperately sad, as are all untimely deaths. I am not, and have not, worried about this kind of thing and it will certainly never affect my choice of wheels.  Lets all just be bloody careful out there.....

[Lukas]

This happened some time ago in Austria:

 

 

A young man, Trabant-enthusiast, drove on the Autobahn with ~ 100 km/h on the first lane. He imported the car from Hungary, he was a real enthusiast and did not drive it everyday, just on nice days occasionally. When he was driving along, suddenly a BMW 530d hit him because the driver was texting on his phone at 160 km/h. Legal speedlimit in Austria: 130 km/h. The Trabi-driver was killed, broke his neck.

 

Good lights at the rear may help at night or during fog, but on a bright day on a straight piece of Autobahn in the first lane?

[dollywobbler]

Having driven a Citroen H van on the Autobahn, I can concur that the speed differential is bloody terrifying. Hope the Beemer driver got locked up. 

[garethj]

defensive is the way to a longer life. Sadly no out of defensive driving will save you from the idiot

 

I disagree, defensive driving is exactly what's supposed to save you from the other idiot.

 

had they been driving a vehicle with seat belts fitted Anne might have survived

 

Yes, probably right.  But if the accident had been as in the above post with the Trabbie, seat belts wouldn't have helped.

 

I think we all have to find our own levels of acceptable risk; I find drum brakes fine, or even commuting by motorcycle, but there are plenty out there who call a step ladder "the widow-maker".

 

The most important factor in safety is the driver, and sadly the truth is that most just can't be arsed.  If everyone really cared about safety, the roads would be cluttered with advanced driving instructors and everyone would be scanning up and down the roads for developing hazards.  But nobody can be bothered with that faffing about, especially when they only got 4 hours sleep last night, they're arguing with the kids in the back, or updating the facebook status (having a crash, lol).  Far easier to get some airbags and be done with it.

 

Any form of crashing is dangerous, a dozen airbags with NCAP stars like a McDonalds award winner won't help if it's a 40 tonner that drifts into your lane.

[dollywobbler]

There's certainly a lot to be said for defensive driving, but would defensive driving have helped the Trabbie owner? Or me when a Mondeo ploughed into the back of me? Even if I'd seen it in my mirror, what was I meant to do? I had nowhere to go as there was a stupid truck in front of me (cutting me up) and a big sign to my right. 

 

I agree entirely that not enough people use any decent level of observation. Sit on a motorway and see how many people actually have to brake if they catch a truck up, or get caught out by one changing lanes, because they've not anticipated that the truck approaching another may have to overtake. But however safely you drive, it's always possible someone will crash into you. Happened to a friend of mine when a twat in his dad's Civic understeered straight into him around a sharp bend. He was trapped in his 2CV for a while but fortunately without injury (the floor kind of folded around his foot!). 

 

Similarly, a friend had a really bad accident when someone smashed through the central reservation on the M23, clobbered the back of her 2CV and sent her spinning and barrel rolling down the road. She walked away with bruises. Onlookers were amazed, but if that car had hit her a few inches further forward, she probably wouldn't be here now. Point is, how can you defend against that? If she'd braked harder, the accident could actually have been worse (it happened so fast I'm not sure she had time to react at all). 

[derskine]

Upgrading brakes is always a good idea too, I've fitted mk3 capri brakes onto my cortina which should hopefully make it stop a bit better. Just need to be careful not to lock them up in the wet.

[ProgRocker]

This happened some time ago in Austria:

 

 

A young man, Trabant-enthusiast, drove on the Autobahn with ~ 100 km/h on the first lane.

 

Crap!  I thought it was a Mini at first.

 

As wobbler said - hope the BMW driver got a custodial sentence.

[tooSavvy]

........I make it easy for the idiots to get past me so that they can have their accident with someone else.

110% endorse that sentiment M8

 

 

TS

[alf892]

There's certainly a lot to be said for defensive driving, but would defensive driving have helped the Trabbie owner? Or me when a Mondeo ploughed into the back of me? Even if I'd seen it in my mirror, what was I meant to do? I had nowhere to go as there was a stupid truck in front of me (cutting me up) and a big sign to my right. 

 

I agree entirely that not enough people use any decent level of observation. Sit on a motorway and see how many people actually have to brake if they catch a truck up, or get caught out by one changing lanes, because they've not anticipated that the truck approaching another may have to overtake. But however safely you drive, it's always possible someone will crash into you. Happened to a friend of mine when a twat in his dad's Civic understeered straight into him around a sharp bend. He was trapped in his 2CV for a while but fortunately without injury (the floor kind of folded around his foot!). 

 

Similarly, a friend had a really bad accident when someone smashed through the central reservation on the M23, clobbered the back of her 2CV and sent her spinning and barrel rolling down the road. She walked away with bruises. Onlookers were amazed, but if that car had hit her a few inches further forward, she probably wouldn't be here now. Point is, how can you defend against that? If she'd braked harder, the accident could actually have been worse (it happened so fast I'm not sure she had time to react at all). 

Agreed.........not much you can do about rear enders just reduce the odds a bit by observation and using roads less likely to be full of (high speed) fools. Not easy.

[cort16]

My cortina has seat belts but they're not enertia ones. I'm going to be changing those I do think about that when I'm driving it.

I have to say the brakes are absolutely terrible on it and it's one of the first things I want to deal with once I get it passed it's mot. I recon a set of vented discs on the front with 2.8 calipers would make a big difference. The brakes on the SD1 however are excellent and generationally they're not that far apart.

[Junkman]

Oh, a car safety discussion, goody!

 

*spins Corvair into tree while flipping off Ralph Nader*

 

Life. Way overrated.

[alf892]

The brakes are great.............all rod operated. As long as the linkages are well set up they are actually very good and need little attention

 

No spongey pedal

No leaky cylinders

[garethj]

but would defensive driving have helped the Trabbie owner? Or me when a Mondeo ploughed into the back of me? Even if I'd seen it in my mirror, what was I meant to do? I had nowhere to go as there was a stupid truck in front of me (cutting me up) and a big sign to my right

I'm not a driving instructor so I don't put this kind of thing across as well as others can, but yes - there was a way of avoiding those accidents.  A bloke I knew said the only one you can't avoid is a car falling from above, in every other direction you've got a clear field of view.  Unless you've got a convertible, then there's presumably no excuse even from above

 

Cars, even at speed, don't come from nowhere.  It might seem like it but that means your observation isn't as good as you thought.  A bigger problem is to say "there's nothing I could have done", that way you'll miss the same accident again.  

 

But however safely you drive, it's always possible someone will crash into you. Happened to a friend of mine when a twat in his dad's Civic understeered straight into him around a sharp bend. He was trapped in his 2CV for a while but fortunately without injury (the floor kind of folded around his foot!). 

 

Similarly, a friend had a really bad accident when someone smashed through the central reservation on the M23, clobbered the back of her 2CV and sent her spinning and barrel rolling down the road.

 

Bimey, you're like the automotive equivalent of Miss Marple; anyone you know mysteriously gets involved in a serious accident.  I must remember to check my facebook friends list and make sure I'm not on yours

 

It's always difficult to go through these accidents when you weren't there, but how about better road positioning to see further through the corner and avoid understeering Civics?  Even if it wouldn't have helped in that exact case, it's still a good idea to do it - might help next time when the hedges aren't quite so high and the understeer isn't quite so bad?

 

I had a similar accident as your friend being punted from across the central reservation, I wasn't looking at traffic on the other carriageway, her and I are proof that if we don't look it might go horribly wrong.

 

Anyway, I would urge anyone to do a bit more learning because it makes you much safer, faster and it's actually quite interesting too.

[forddeliveryboy]

There seems to be have been a mass-forgetting of primary safety characteristics over the last couple of decades, when manufacturers who had previously ignored a total lack of crashability suddenly started to take it very seriously indeed, because they were forced to do. Which helps you understand which cars didn't have profit-making short-cuts in other aspects of their engineering.

 

Good vision, fine brakes, safe, predictable and strong handling, comfort and the ability not to either tire or send a driver to sleep on a long journey are vital for any car, I'd say. Yet loads of moderns have appalling vision, there is a danger of falling asleep at 70 or 80 on a motorway and the low frequency drone of a 4-cyl engine (inline) is a far greater fatigue than many realise, as is poor steering. Lack of decent fresh air ventilation, too - without opening windows.

 

Stick a knife in the middle of the steering wheel, blade pointing directly at the driver, and driving standards would improve massively.

 

I don't feel unsafe in a 2cv either, (if I'm driving!) on account of its totally predictable handling, huge levels of grip in both wet and dry, amazing braking abilities, comfort and not least the heightened awareness of danger. I've seen a few nasty crashes involving them and have always been amazed at the protection they offer the occupants.

 

Only a couple of years ago, a friend was sideswiped by an A8 coming out of a side road without looking. He was going at 65mph-ish and the rear end was set spinning into the kerb and verge. The immense swervability meant he didn't hit the thing head-on, which could have killed both drivers, but he ended up rolling a few times as the thing slowed. To his disbelief, he got straight out with no more than a bruised shoulder. Every bit of the car was bent, yet the passenger cell was still totally intact and three out of four of the doors opened easily. I'll try and dig out a picture of the wreck.

 

I'm not suggesting the tin snail is a paragon of crash-worthiness - a lack of headrests on non-German market models is probably the nastiest aspect - but it's not the disaster the masses assume, either.

 

Observation and experience are probably the two biggest safety features. I'm always amazed by how little most drivers are aware of what's going on around them - especially behind.

 

 

A bloke I knew said the only one you can't avoid is a car falling from above, in every other direction you've got a clear field of view.  Unless you've got a convertible, then there's presumably no excuse even from above

 

Cars, even at speed, don't come from nowhere.  It might seem like it but that means your observation isn't as good as you thought.  A bigger problem is to say "there's nothing I could have done", that way you'll miss the same accident again. 

 

Anyway, I would urge anyone to do a bit more learning because it makes you much safer, faster and it's actually quite interesting too.

 

Abso-bloody-lutely. I suggested my mate went on a driving course which emphasised observational skills. But he didn't. I reckon the easier a car is to drive, the more spare brain power you have left to process everything else.

[HillmanImp]

808 people were occupants of vehicles that were killed in the UK in 2010. In the same year 655 people died falling down the stairs.

 

So what we are saying here, is that getting a new modern car improves your longevity about the same as not wearing flip flops when going downstairs to get some Shreddies for breakfast?

 

1,523 people died from accidental poisoning so we really should be a bit more worried about that TBH. One of these was nearly my uncle Walter. He accidentally put Daffodil bulbs in his casserole instead of onions and was rushed to hospital. Was a bit touch and go there for a while but he is okay now and will be out in the spring.