Is this legal?

[Benjyp10]

Erm .... no

Just because in your opinion as a traffic.officer something doesnt look right doesnt make it illegal. What makes it not look right to you ? Colour , make etc.

Its down to the written law surely , not down to what you would make fit the situation cos you dont like the look of it.

How many vans do you see dragging their arse down the motorway...clearly overweight which means overheating tyres, excessive strain in parts not designed to work to that capacity, stopping distances, overworked brakes...all this adds up to calamity and death on the roads. I know I deal with it. Loads of sprinters running at 100%overweight. As the numpties think, big space can fill it without thought of weight capacity.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

That's a shame that you think a frames are shit. Because they definitely aren't!! Yes you could tow a dangerous unbraked mass with one, but if the weight balance is reasonable there's no problem. Of course your braking distance is longer than if you weren't towing, so you have to stick to reasonable max speeds and leave a more generous braking distance, just as you would with a real trailer. I would put 20 quid on a sensibly used a frame rig having a shorter braking distance than a 'safe and legal' Disco with a 2-tonne trailer mass, even if that trailer was braked. I would put another 20 on the a frame winning any comparitive test of stability under braking.

[nigel bickle]

I'm with Boll here, and I own all 3 options.

 

Assuming the load was reasonable ,safe, none too rusty etc, my first choice would always be the A frame.

It has a lower centre of gravity, the wheels are in the right place, it feels much much better to tow. So, whilst I accept everything you state in relation to the law- it would still remain my first choice.

Luckily, I own 2  A frames, a 'lightweight' ball hitch version ,and a heavy weight braked ring hitch. I defer to the lighter, except for the bigger stuff...

 

You'll see (from Mr Imp's pic above) that I also own a dolly.

A big hefty 4 wheel'd mutha, that I find hateful.    Its difficult to load, the transported vehicle is high in the air, horrible on corners,and always feels like its going to launch through the rear tailgate. Nevertheless, there are times when it feels appropriate- like rescuing that 14.

(Mine Mr I, the spare interior & bits were indeed for RR's. I had a stack of welding, recommissioning etc to MOT it, didn't really like it & couldn't then find a use so barned it. May yet see the light )

 

So, if neither fit, I own a small (single axle) trailer that I will haul out for total munters. 

I  may elect to tow with the Pintara (2.2l) but I'll probably upgrade to the 3.2 4wd Musso, cos the whole set up feels wrong.  If truly forced, I can borrow a big 4 wheel trailer- but we're getting into major hassle/ expense which makes saving old motas unviable.

 

So, us A framers aren't all hateful idiots, intent on molestation &  kitten maiming. Each kit has its place, and should be used accordingly.

Irrespective of the rig, if you get it wrong, and cause a major -its down to you & you pay the consequences.

 

Safety first- always. 

[Benjyp10]

Whilst I have to agree with most points....its just the way the towing law stands. Apart from comments made by two smoke..

[Lankytim]

Even if the towed vehicle has all four wheels on the ground you could reasonably argue that its now a trailer. Its towed and has no driver, so what else is it? It then doesn't need tax mot or insurance, but obviously needs good tyres and working lights E.T.c.

[Lankytim]

Oh, and reversing A frames is easy, aslong as youdon't try to get round any tight corners, I've never had any trouble anyway.

[RichardMoss]

So what about those A-frames that have a lever mechanism that attaches to the brake pedal on the towed car which is then operated whenever the tow car slows down (similar to caravan brakes)?  This makes it a braked trailer.

 

I remember asking a couple of police traffic depts these questions a while back and their response was that the law was so vague on the definitions that it was  a nightmare for them

 

EDIT:  ignore the first, covered on the previous page.

[Lankytim]

As mentioned previously, the brakes on cars are not up to trailer standards so still not totally legal!

 

I've got a blackstones book on road traffic law at home, I'll have to post the exact wording of the law, but what I do remember is that a towed car can be classed as a trailer OR a car. Clear as mud.

[warren t claim]

To be honest, as an HGV driver I've always found that the easiest way to avoid VOSA interest when running the gauntlet of checkpoints whilst nursing a blown tacho fuse is to simply slip in behind a Turkish wagon and drag. Many VOSA storm troopers seem to have views on foreigners that would make Nicky Griffin blush and they'd much rather spend an hour chewing over non white British people rather than me.

[Benjyp10]

A towed vehicle with all four wheels on the ground is never ever a trailer, even with no engine or interior. You need to research the definition of motor vehicle and look at con and use regs. Four wheels on the ground= motor vehicle. Thus needs, tax and insurance and MOT....even when towed. Plenty of case law out there...I don't make this up

[Benjyp10]

Even if the towed vehicle has all four wheels on the ground you could reasonably argue that its now a trailer. Its towed and has no driver, so what else is it? It then doesn't need tax mot or insurance, but obviously needs good tyres and working lights E.T.c.

Nice idea, but its still a vehicle and needs all the insurance and MOT's etc.

[Lankytim]

Have you got an example of case law? Not magistrates court, actual crown court. I'm just going on what it says in the manual, it is a few years out of date though. Apparently even a chicken coop on wheels or a shed can be classed as a road vehicle!

[HillmanImp]

A towed vehicle with all four wheels on the ground is never ever a trailer

 

Er....this is the first paragraph from my post with a link to the guidance from the government website earlier.

 

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. 

motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in 

legislation as a trailer.

[Joey spud]

Even if the towed vehicle has all four wheels on the ground you could reasonably argue that its now a trailer. Its towed and has no driver, so what else is it? It then doesn't need tax mot or insurance, but obviously needs good tyres and working lights E.T.c.

 

I guess you could argue an A frame is a trailer but unless the car you are towing with it is under 750kg then you are falling foul of the max 750kg unbraked trailer law.

Now if the A frame can operate the casualty vehicles brake system then you maybe on to something.

[Benjyp10]

Have you got an example of case law? Not magistrates court, actual crown court. I'm just going on what it says in the manual, it is a few years out of date though. Apparently even a chicken coop on wheels or a shed can be classed as a road vehicle!

Yep, at work tonight so will get it. The one quoted above, is for the cars that weigh less than 750KG and towed behind motor homes, I.e smart cars, Aixams..etc. You need to look at each vehicles weight and circumstances.

[Benjyp10]

 

This is a great shot of some hot dolly action of a broken down car getting recovered from an old Autoshite thread. Nobody died IIRC.

 

Guidance here:

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120606172804/http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

 

 

Hi all,

 

I've read this and sadly it says its their interpretation of the law and only the courts can decide. Case law since 2011 has not defined a towing vehicle with an A frame as one unit and trailer. I will find the case law and post for you. You need to note, that most vehicles this day and age are over 750KG MAM.

 

 

As a side thought, did this ever get back on the road? RegieRitmo had it didn't he?

[theorganist]

 

 

This is a great shot of some hot dolly action of a broken down car getting recovered from an old Autoshite thread. Nobody died IIRC.

 

Guidance here:

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20120606172804/http://assets.dft.gov.uk/publications/dft-information-sheets/a-frames-and-dollies.pdf

 

 

Hi all,

 

I've read this and sadly it says its their interpretation of the law and only the courts can decide. Case law since 2011 has not defined a towing vehicle with an A frame as one unit and trailer. I will find the case law and post for you. You need to note, that most vehicles this day and age are over 750KG MAM.

 

 

As a side thought, did this ever get back on the road? RegieRitmo had it didn't he?

 

This one was on a pair of 14's which Nigel Bickle won on ebay from a field (or was in a field and he won it) in Gloucestershire. The gold Y reg GTL not in the picture was broken up as it was totally rotten. I think Regie had the interior for his 1977 Renault 14.

 

Nigel was working on getting the blue one back on the road, I know it needed some welding (surprise surprise)!

 

I would too love to know what the status of it is as it would be great to see another (one of the very few left) UK market 14's back on the road.

[Lankytim]

Smarts and the like have a max gross weight of over 750 kg, so if they are classed as a trailer they still need to be braked.

[warren t claim]

http://autoshite.com/topic/10822-a-framing-issue-on-another-forum/

[drum]

A towed vehicle with all four wheels on the ground is never ever a trailer, even with no engine or interior. You need to research the definition of motor vehicle and look at con and use regs. Four wheels on the ground= motor vehicle. Thus needs, tax and insurance and MOT....even when towed. Plenty of case law out there...I don't make this up

I'm clearly not reading this right because a twin axle trailer has four wheels on the ground.

[twosmoke300]

Benjy , im sorry too , didnt mean to imply racism, i meant colour of car . Deffo know what you mean about overloading. Often feel sorry for lorry drivers that get dragged through the coals for being a ton overweight on a vehicle probably only plated down to 44 anyway.

Percentage wise its nothing compared to some cars i see which must be nigh on 200 percent overweight.

[Benjyp10]

Smarts and the like have a max gross weight of over 750 kg, so if they are classed as a trailer they still need to be braked.

 

Yes, I was trying to be helpful and show an everyday example. On a different topic, how many fifth wheel couplings do we see now? Where does the law allow for them....

[Mr_Bo11ox]

What's a 5th wheel coupling?? Its great to be able to talk about this stuff with an actual policeman btw.

[dieselnutjob]

I thought most artics are a 5th wheel, the "5th wheel" being the swivel plate above the back axle of the tractor unit.

 

The law is pretty clear that any trailer over 750kg has to be braked on all axles, and neither an A frame nor a dolly meet these requirements and so arguing the towed car is a four wheel trailer doesn't help, because it doesn't have four wheel brakes (unless you rig something up to the pedal).

 

Yes the honest opinion of an actual policeman is a useful thing.  

 

I think if a policeman sees something happening that he knows to be against the law (whether the law is right or wrong) he probably has a duty to do something about it doesn't he?  That is what he's paid to do after all.

 

I need to pull the engine out of the 604 so that I can get a chassis rail welded up and this is going to cause me a problem.  I will have to find a place that hires one of those lightweight trailers, or do some kind of calculation of what my 604 minus engine actually weighs.

 

Am I right thinking that if my 806 towing limit is 2000kg then I can use a trailer with a higher capacity than that provided it doesn't actually weigh more than 2000kg?

[Barry Cade]

I was going to wade in to this discussion, but down and to the right, found reverse and decided against it.. Even the breakdown industry have fisticuffs and much spilt pints over all this.

 

 

I'll leave this here...

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/210144/guide-for-recovery-operations.pdf

 

 

[Richard]

 

Am I right thinking that if my 806 towing limit is 2000kg then I can use a trailer with a higher capacity than that provided it doesn't actually weigh more than 2000kg?

 

I don't think you can legally.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

I like how that VOSA document gets this on within the first few lines:

 

"It's also the case however, that some of the rules which have been in place for many years, are in need of an updated pragmatic interpretation, so efforts to apply practical solutions to persistent interpretation problems have also been included where appropriate"

 

Good to see the word pragmatism in there!!! I'll remind the VOSA dude of the need for some pragmatism as he's inserting the hitch of my A frame into my ass on the roadside, I'm sure he'll enjoy hearing that!

[lisbon_road]

Just my view but having only occasional need to move a non working car, I've always hired transporters with driver.  They are very competitive ie in my opinion reasonable and (in my experience) very knowledgeable on the law, insurance and so on.

 

Fair enough, if you need to do a lot, you might need to take a different approach.

 

Had to collect a new bodyshell from 300 miles off and I hired a trailer and borrowed a work van.  Was complex making sure it was a legal and insured.

[Barry Cade]

I like how that VOSA document gets this on within the first few lines:

 

"It's also the case however, that some of the rules which have been in place for many years, are in need of an updated pragmatic interpretation, so efforts to apply practical solutions to persistent interpretation problems have also been included where appropriate"

 

Good to see the word pragmatism in there!!! I'll remind the VOSA dude of the need for some pragmatism as he's inserting the hitch of my A frame into my ass on the roadside, I'm sure he'll enjoy hearing that!

Yup.

 

One of my fellow operators got fined and read the riot act for not having a trailer board fitted. A few days after I first read that document. 

 

Can of Worms. A Big ONE.

[capsuleboy]

On a slightly lighter note, I guess dragging this combo home from half way across France must have been illegal in some way or another.