Engineering is dead.........discuss

[Rocket88]

Along the same lines as "all new cars are shit". Has automotive engineering become a thing of the past? Modern engines / gearboxes seemed to have regressed in terms of reliability, in favour of wipers /lights that can turn themselves on and off automatically, vibrating seats that sense when you're deviating out of your lane etc etc.

Is this a cunning ploy to ensure that we keep buying new stuff when the old one explodes, or have manufacturers taken their eye off the ball?

[simmo]

The driver for engine development is ever greater fuel efficiency which in turn leads to greater complexity,new technologies and more to go wrong .  Also consumers' expectations have increased I can remember (I am old)  when 100K was considered a good innings for a car.  Built in obsolescence works, if cars lasted forever we would still have millions of Model Ts and VW bugs running round or a permanent scrappage scheme.

[Partridge]

I don’t think it’s dead, it’s just got too complicated for it’s own good. Were older cars really more reliable? No, but they’re a darn sight easier to fix when they do go, because they’re so much more simple. 

Pretty much anyone can work on an A Series engine, and if you have a little know-how and common sense, even a K-Series. 

 

But a TDi engine? No chance! 

[John F]

No, it isn't dead. But increasingly-stringent emissions regulations are forcing manufacturers down a particular development route, and this will probably continue until an alternative power source replaces fossil fuels.

 

But advances in chassis and suspension technology are a definite sign of progress, even if the demands of wind tunnel testing and pedestrian protection dictates that all modern cars have to look almost identically shit.

[Partridge]

I think JLR are living proof that engineering is alive and well.

[Rocket88]

Surely, if a little less emphasis was put into loading cars with extranious crap, this would make cars lighter, meaning less emissions and a better car to drive by way of being lighter?

I agree that NCAP is reducing all vehicles to conform to pretty much the same silhouette, [ridiculously thick A pillars being the result, which is bloody dangerous]

[Partridge]

Most cars nowadays have A pillars thick enough to loose an artic in.

[RedSparrow]

As far as the internal combustion engine goes, maybe.

I have a new student at this company http://www.autokabel.com/en/welcome-to-auto-kabel.html, where they tell me most manufacturers r&d is now focused on hybrids and electric cars. Good news for a company who specialise in automotive wiring.

[cort16]

Compressed air is the future. I see no downsides.

 

There's no emissions, you can charge it quickly, there's no high voltage, no batteries and you can choose the device you use to compress the air (wind, nuclear, petrol,fat guy on a big wheel).

 

http://www.designboom.com/technology/peugeout-citroen-compressed-air-hybrid-vehicle/

 

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-11/07/air-powered-motorcycle

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Course engineering is alive and well, you can buy a Golf bluemotion that will carry 4 adults all the way across Europe in comfort whilst doing 60+mpg and will not need the bonnet opening till its done 20,000 miles. That’s progress.

[worldofceri]

I think some of the engineering in modern cars is incredible.

 

But then, I think some of the engineering on the Trent and Mersey canal is incredible.

 

It's all kind of relative.

[dollywobbler]

The Range Rover Evoque will soon be available with a NINE speed gearbox. I'm not quite sure what the point is, but the fact that they can cram nine gears into such a small space is remarkable in itself. There are some very interesting diagrams in last month's Land Rover Monthly. If they give it one more gear, it'll have the same number as my 1993 Discovery...

 

EDIT - there is some truth that engineering has been replaced by electronics. Look at a Citroen's hydropneumatic suspension. It does many, many incredible things, all using engineering rather than a computer. I still prefer a throttle controlled by a cable and preferably some nice linkages too.

[cort16]

If you look what BMW have done with their diesel range it's pretty amazing. The 320d does 60mpg, has C02 output of less than 120 but can still do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds and has over 180bhp.

 

They've had to make the cars more complex to do this but even 10 years ago that combination of figures was unthinkable there was always a compromise be it fuel consumption, power or cleanlyness.

[Spiny Norman]

I think the problem is that in so many areas computer/electronics have replaced mechanical and technical advances, and not always for the better.

 

If you look what BMW have done with their diesel range it's pretty amazing. The 320d does 60mpg, has C02 output of less than 120 but can still do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds and has over 180bhp.

 

They've had to make the cars more complex to do this but even 10 years ago that combination of figures was unthinkable there was always a compromise be it fuel consumption, power or cleanlyness.

 

Sure your BMW Dizzler will do all that, right up to the point where it needs some stupidly expensive repair work done on its high-tech twizzly bits.

There are plenty of other threads on here bemoaning the fact that modern cars, and  turdo-weasels in particular, get to a point relatively early in their lives where the cost of replacing the normal wear & tear components (injectors, turbos, emissions gear etc) exceeds the value of the car.

Perhaps less so in something like a BMW, granted, but look at the number of sub 10 year old cars you see in scrappies nowadays.

 

There's a lot to be said for a well designed mechanical component made to fine tolerances out of good quality materials.

 

Look at it this way, surely in the last 40 years there has been ample opportunity for the record holder of the highest mileage car in the world to be taken away from a 1966 Volvo with a pushrod engine and a pair of SUs....

[cort16]

We're talking about engineering though not reliabilty. People demand more from their cars than they did when the volvo was around.

Remember when TV's used to last 2 generations? Now TV's last 5 years because people expect more from their equipment and are less worried about it being able to last 20 years and more about what can it do for them now.

 

The latest imac is a perfect example of this. In the old days (10 years ago) if part of your computer chucked it you replaced the processor, board, hard disc or what ever  and got on with your life. Apple sussed out with the old fruity that imac people really want something that looks great and functions well, which put them on the path to the iphone, ipad etc. With the latest imac in the quest to making it look amazing they engineered a solution that basically means the computer is welded shut in the factory. All you can do is replace the memory. If the screen goes or the processor melts you need to replace it you have to frag it. Apples message is they made it 99% recyclable so when it is fragged it's all re-used. The thing looks bloody amazing and the fact they managed to cram all that stuff into such a small space is impressive engineering BUT even apple admit it reduces it's shelf life. It's just part of the demands of the modern world.

 

P.S. How do I plug my bluetooth ODBII reader into an SD1??

[Partridge]

To be honest, is it not impossible to make a car without “engineering†it?

[Partridge]

If you look what BMW have done with their diesel range it's pretty amazing. The 320d does 60mpg, has C02 output of less than 120 but can still do 0-60 in 7.5 seconds and has over 180bhp.

 

They've had to make the cars more complex to do this but even 10 years ago that combination of figures was unthinkable there was always a compromise be it fuel consumption, power or cleanlyness.

The 535d (E60) had 280bhp, and did 0-60 in 6.5 seconds...none to shabby.

[treehugger]

Compressed air is the future. I see no downsides.

 

There's no emissions, you can charge it quickly, there's no high voltage, no batteries and you can choose the device you use to compress the air (wind, nuclear, petrol,fat guy on a big wheel).

 

http://www.designboom.com/technology/peugeout-citroen-compressed-air-hybrid-vehicle/

 

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2012-11/07/air-powered-motorcycle

Future is vegetable oil? Use it anyway for cooking, might as well use it again.

[cort16]

My boss has a new shape 330d and it'll do 60 5.7 secs and 150mph. He gets over 40mpg. That combination of performance and economy is amazing when you think about it. It's got 2 turbos and got knows what else to achieve this so I imagine in 10 years it'll have a few challenges.

[dollywobbler]

The future is going to be one of two things. Either computer geekery will be the next big DIY thing or there just won't be any old cars on the road (after mid-1990s stuff). 

 

Computer geekery could well take off. I must concede that even I get a bit of a kick out of mucking about in menus, like you can on some cars by pressing the right dashboard buttons. It's like a secret world. 

 

But some things put me right off - stuff like electronic handbrakes. I still don't see why these are a good idea for anyone other than interior designers. I visit a Landy specialist nearby every now and then. You can guarantee that there will be at least one Discovery 3 in with some sort of handbrake failure. All because having a cable and some levers is just too bloody simple.

[Guest gaskethead]

Well, to answer literally, of course it's not a thing of the past. Like Simmo I'm old too and remember when many 60s and 70s engines, even from high status brands like Jags and Rovers, were knackered at 100 000 miles. I remember taking the head off a Rover 80 in the late '70s, and being astonished that each piston was graded with a letter denoting its variation from standard in thousandths of an inch - really nice engineering, but it didn't stop the bores each having a millimetre or so wear at the top at 150,000 miles. Similarly a 1972 Jag 4.2 used about half a gallon of oil in a hundred miles after a similar mileage. Conversely, my 2000 BMW 728i has done 140,000 and doesn't use a drop. So, engineering, or at least machining, is far better than it was.

 

But something has changed. My two pen'orth, for what it's worth, is that it's a symptom of the spirit of the times in which we live. One way to characterise this era, it seems to me anyway, is to look at it in terms of blandness, an era where individuality is not encouraged. This is certainly true in the popular arts - drama, comedy, literature, with music being perhaps the most obvious example - X-factor and all the other karaoke shows have made sure individuality has been thoroughly banished. Modern cars are technically brilliant and usually drive pretty well, but for the most part are pretty bland, and just as X-factor would never produce David Bowie or Siouxsie Sioux, the modern motor industry is unliikely to ever produce quirky stuff like the Citroen DS or Austin's wondrous hydrolastic 1100.

 

Conform, conform, conform is the order of the day; blandness has become a virtue.

 

Then again, I might be talking nonsense.

[Micrashed]

Life would be a great deal more simple if people who wanted petrol cars were given a choice of the  A series, O series or T series engines and people who wanted a diesel could have an NA Perkins Prima or a Turbo XU9D.

 

No airbags

 

Bring back chrome bumpers and 2 star petrol.

 

There. Whilst the engines would last forever the cars would be designed to rust to nothing after 15 years

[CreepingJesus]

Engineering isn't dead; it's the priorities given to the development team at the outset that have changed.

Regulations have changed, and the marketing research focus groups hold a big sway. And they want more toys, safety and less fuel use. It's amazing that these factors are able to be met simultaneously at all.

I remember the retiring head of Peugeot's R+D, giving the marketing guys a going over, in an interview about 10 years ago. He maintained they'd ruined his chance of building a 100mpg family saloon!

[cort16]

I've got a 30 quid blue tooth reader that works off my iPhone . Not perfect but will diagnose most generic faults and reset the eml. I think with a lot if stuff you can get pretty close to a diagnosis with some google time and a bit of common sense.

 

You do sometimes get the thing where you google symtoms of a cold and become convinced you've got the bubonic plague.

You hear a small rattle at the front and after 5 minutes online you're 100% sure the cars spun a shell then it turns out to be a paper clip in the ash tray.

[Leyland Lawrence]

Electric handbrake, That, for me, is a step too far. Just seems so OTT.

[dollywobbler]

Is it more that, like Top Gear, cars are built for non-car people these days rather than enthusiasts? They leave 'enthusiasts' at the whim of marketing departments, who try to sell a dream even though the thing they're trying to sell is now a blobby mess compared to its predecessors. 

[Junkman]

 

Engineering is dead.

 

Yes.

 

There hasn't been any real progress in over 50 years.

[makum101]

Course engineering is alive and well, you can buy a Golf bluemotion that will carry 4 adults all the way across Europe in comfort whilst doing 60+mpg and will not need the bonnet opening till its done 20,000 miles. That’s progress.

Or for 10 miles to the gallon less, a larger car. Many now do 50MPG with a 20,000 service. The ECU computers start playing up the moment you drive it off the dealers forcourt tho but! Apparently I have "Stabilli Control" on my insignia and it has a problem according to the coputer thing. It can wait till its next fekin service!

[Albert Ross]

Yeah... we're going back to timing chains.... how long before pushrods are back? I have no idea why the world has foisted multi-valve technology upon us. We are told to keep the revs down around town, so a 2V per cylinder will allow you to do that, and the torque curve is different, (gas acceleration/swirl etc) But when the motoring public cannot access these engines because nobody makes them any more, we all roll around in a gear lower than normal to keep the revs up, so we can at least get going again. these 4V units don't pull from low revs like the 2V ones do. My 2V unit produces peak torque at about 15-1700RPM. Modern shizz? About 3500RPM. Go figure.

[Justin Case]

Engineering is alive and well, it is just the ends to which it is put that are pointless. Continually having to reduce emissions when no one knows if they actually do any harm is bad enough, but having to engineer a car so that the moron driving it can also put photos on the interweb and post inanities on Twitter at the same time must be enough to make any self-respecting engineer hang up his slide rule and take up a career in designing cupcakes