Should I Buy A Recovery Truck Or????

[ruffgeezer]

Having said that, I've never been tugged in a recovery truck either, so maybe I've just been lucky.

 

 

Probably not recovering the right sort of person

 

I haven't seen it mentioned but mot exemption only applies to recovery vehicles that tow rather than carry, so spec lift only = mot exempt, ramps/beavertail with or without speclift will require an mot no matter what the eBay knuckledraggers will have you believe.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Bickle sums it up perfectly for me, the whole lot sounds impossible to make any sense of. The lad who I bought my Doblo off said he’d got a tug a fortnight ago when A-framing a ford Ka behind his 7.5 ton flatbed truck, and told to dump the Ka and come back for it. ‘Too much unbraked weight’. I don’t know what a 7.5 ton truck with a car on the back weighs but the Ka must have been about 10 percent max of the braked weight, it would be totally imperceptible. Nonsense.

[Joey spud]

Ah Mr B,unbraked weight is another shadey area...

and i cant see why a your man was told to drop his towed load.

 

You can't tow a trailer over 750kg if it is unbraked which is fair enough.A car connected to an A frame is easily going to be over 750kg (maybe not an Aixam) but there is a loop hole in the law that says a genuine (but should be road legal) broken down vehicle on an A frame or Dolly can be towed without a braking device fitted to a place of safety or repair.

 

Rac and others have used this bit of legislation for years,hence my RDT is unbraked and as long as i dont go over my max gross mass or the trailers axle limit of 1100kg i am ok.

 

That said trying to slow down in the snowy slush can make your back side eat the seat cushion.

[Cavcraft]

Right:

 

No truck 3500gs or less is MOT exempt. None of them. It doesn't matter what some dickhead on eBay said, or what form you have from the Post Office. You CAN fool the Post Office though, they haven't a clue.

 

What IS exempt from MOT?

3501kgs or more, spec lift only. Therefore a slidebed or beavertail with a spec lift is NOT exempt from MOT.

So you get a five tonne speclift only and you recover a broken down 'legal' vehicle that's MOT'd, taxed and insured, that's all above board. Pick up a car for your own reward (sales car/scrapper/whatever) and you need a tacho (regardless of distance) and an MOT. Pick up a car that has no MOT or tax then (officially) it's not considered to be broken down, even if it is, because it's not legal. Therefore you need an MOT and a tacho (again regardless of distance) to collect it.

Collecting a genuine broken down legal vehicle more than 62 miles away? You need a tacho.

Taking a car to scrap? Even assuming it's taxed. MOT'd and broken down you're still doing it for your own reward so need MOT. Even if you got away with it on the way to the metal yard, if you put the wheels (or other bits) from the scrapper on to the back of the spec lift body and bring them back then you've broken the law because you're carrying goods and you're not allowed to do so under MOT exemption.

Chances of being caught for this? Slim to none, VOSA seem clueless themselves about these things, but if you have a crash (your fault or not) then I'df be willing to bet they'll soon discover a law you've broken and they'll tear you an new arsehole.

To me (personally) a 3501+KG truck isn't worth the bother unless you are going for an 'O' licence and have the funds this requires. I'll come on to 3.5 tonne trucks later if anyone's still awake!

[nigel bickle]

F.F.S

 

All that to cover spec lift/ MOT only.

 

Add all the other 'issues' and you wonder why we all shy clear?

[In The Pit]

Right:

 

No truck 3500gs or less is MOT exempt. None of them. It doesn't matter what some dickhead on eBay said, or what form you have from the Post Office. You CAN fool the Post Office though, they haven't a clue.

 

What IS exempt from MOT?

3501kgs or more, spec lift only. Therefore a slidebed or beavertail with a spec lift is NOT exempt from MOT.

So you get a five tonne speclift only and you recover a broken down 'legal' vehicle that's MOT'd, taxed and insured, that's all above board. Pick up a car for your own reward (sales car/scrapper/whatever) and you need a tacho (regardless of distance) and an MOT. Pick up a car that has no MOT or tax then (officially) it's not considered to be broken down, even if it is, because it's not legal. Therefore you need an MOT and a tacho (again regardless of distance) to collect it.

Collecting a genuine broken down legal vehicle more than 62 miles away? You need a tacho.

Taking a car to scrap? Even assuming it's taxed. MOT'd and broken down you're still doing it for your own reward so need MOT. Even if you got away with it on the way to the metal yard, if you put the wheels (or other bits) from the scrapper on to the back of the spec lift body and bring them back then you've broken the law because you're carrying goods and you're not allowed to do so under MOT exemption.

Chances of being caught for this? Slim to none, VOSA seem clueless themselves about these things, but if you have a crash (your fault or not) then I'df be willing to bet they'll soon discover a law you've broken and they'll tear you an new arsehole.

To me (personally) a 3501+KG truck isn't worth the bother unless you are going for an 'O' licence and have the funds this requires. I'll come on to 3.5 tonne trucks later if anyone's still awake!

 

Thanks for the info there. I would like to hear about 3.5 tonne trucks if you have time to post. Is a tacho only needed for 3501+ or do 3.5 need them too?

[Cavcraft]

Nope, you only need them for 3501+kgs. If you tow with one though (by which I mean A frame or trailer) then you'd probably need a tachograph. I have to say all this 'train weight' stuff has me utterly baffled, and it's why I prefer recovery trucks to any kind of towing.

 

Basically with a 3.5 tonner you can do what you like (scrappers, auction cars, recovery, selling your own motors etc) without the need for a tacho and thus more attention from VOSA plus all the shit that goes with an 'O' licence. Now, don't get me wrong as they will overjoyed to pull you in and find problems, it's what they do best and as they're self funding it's even more in their interest to nail you for something.

Regarding what truck is best, then it's down to personal preference. I like the Transit Mk3s (1986-2000 ish) myself as although quality can vary they're generally pretty reliable and easy/cheap to maintain.

Spec lifts, as mentioned earlier, I think they have limited use as towing damaged cars/rwd autos/permanent 4x4s etc must be a nightmare. To me the ideal truck is a 15ft beavertail body with slideaway ramps and a top drawer winch. Get one that doesn't have either and you're pissing about sliding the ramps under the motor on the back, trying to secure them and then there's the fact some fucker will steal them one day. Get a shit Chinese winch and it'll work about five times then just spaz itself up and you have no idea how pissing useless it is running a truck with no winch. Slidebeds are mental money and rare in 3.5T format, you'll pay crazy money for even a shit one.

Oh, if you get a beavertail you want a strong, reasonably light body that's all enclosed. That way you can tit about jacking up cars on the back!

 

Drawbacks: modern cars weight shit loads so a Mondeo estate (for example) can send you over the MGW as most trucks will weigh circa 2,200kgs. The weight limits are a sort of grey area, as with any commercial.

The unwritten, unofficial 'rule' is if you go up to 5% over your MGW (so that would mean 175kgs over on a 3.5 tonner) and you get a verbal bollocking, 5-10% over you're going to cop a fine very shortly, and 10% or over then you stop where you are, your load has to be removed and you get Royally bummed big time.

I know VOSA can pull people in cars pulling trailers, as can the coppers of course, but I suspect if you're not taking the piss they'll mostly leave you alone. Horses for courses but I'd run another 3.5 tonne beavertail any day of the week.

[Albert Ross]

I'm rather lucky with my Diesel 109 Land Rover. It's registered as 3499kg DGW. Well we all know it wouldn't move under it's own power if it weighed that much.... I carried 900or more kg of engines the other day. In a vehicle that weighs 1650kg or thereabouts, designed to carry a max of 750kg, but uprated with 1 ton springs, therefore it didn't sag!

[worldofceri]

For those struggling to understand gross weights/train weights perhaps this will explain:

 

 

Every vehicle (car, van, truck etc) has a plate like this. It'll have the VIN on the top line usually.

 

2710kg is the gross weight of this vehicle, i.e. the maximum authorised mass (MAM as VOSA call it) of the vehicle, it's load, driver, fuel, equipment and so on and must not be exceeded.

 

6710kg is the train weight, or MAM, of the vehicle in combination with any trailer.

 

1000kg is the limit for the front axle; 1710kg is the limit for the second axle.

 

Axle limits for any trailer will be on a plate on the trailer itself.

 

If you are not towing you need a tachograph if the first line (gross weight) is over 3500kg. E.g. LDV beavertail.

 

If you are towing you need a tachograph if the second line (train weight) is more than 3500kg. E.g. Disco plus trailer.

 

Simples.

 

However, provided neither line is over 7500kg you do not need a tachograph or 'O' Licence if you aren't operating for 'reward'. As Cavette has said, taking a scrapper to the bridge might be construed as seeking 'reward' although if the car in question is your personal property you'd be OK. Picking up an Ebay purchase would be fine as long as you haven't bought it to sell on.

 

The rules are pretty complex when looked at as whole, but it's all on the web these days so you can easily arm yourself with as much information as the average plod (but probably not your friendly VOSA man).

 

First thing I'd do if I bought any commercial vehicle or trailer is take it to a weighbridge unladen (but with a full tank of fuel and any tools etc) and find out exactly what the payload is gonna be.

[Lankytim]

I Think aslong as you are not driving for reward you don't need a tacho at all no matter what the weight is. Banger racers are regularly pulled by VOSA for being overloaded/poor vehicle condition and tachos never come into the equation as far as I know.

 

A framing is a proper grey area as the towed vehicle can be interpreted as a trailer or a towed car. If the rozzers decide it's a trailer then no matter what the weight is, even if it's under 750KG then you can be done for having non functioning brakes as the braking system is fitted, but not operational (unless you have a fancy A frame that operates the brakes). If the police decide it's a towed car then you can be done having an unbraked trailer weighing over 750kg. Some guy on Pepipoo got prosecuted for towing a smart car with no engine, he contested it and was pleaded guilty in court for having non-working brakes on a trailer. More often than not the police just won't bother pulling over A framers as the law is so blurred that they find better things to do and move on.

 

I have towed all sorts of stuff, overloaded but perfectly safe trailers and lots of A framing and have never been stopped once.

[Cavcraft]

Hey, there's another thing, Tim. A lad I know got pulled coming out of Buxton (banger meeting) a year or so ago and reckoned VOSA told him if he was racing for a prize then it was 'hire or reward' and he'd better start putting tacographs in!

[Lankytim]

LOL, Can you imagine VOSA taking someone to court for that??

[Mr_Bo11ox]

You could argue that your inept driving/badly prepped car meant you knowingly had zero chance of winning and were just doing it for fun anyway

[In The Pit]

Thanks to cavette for posting the extra info on 3.5 trucks, and also to worldofceri for the info on the weight tags. All good information there.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Hey i've seen a car for sale on LeBonCoin thats winking at me, i've just read an old road test and it seemingly weighs a gnats over 700kg meaning I could A-frame it and be borderline legal right? Plus thats probably light enough to be towed by a 1.9NE diesel Fiat Doblo with an EU Type-approved towbar.

[Lankytim]

You'd be legal weight wise but some jobsworth rozzer or LeVOSA official could argue that the brakes are non-functioning. I guess you could remove all trace of the braking system, then you'd be in the clear.

[Richard]

You'll never get the same answer twice on this, but I remember reading on a police website that you have to go by a trailer's maximum weight, not its current weight. That means that you can't tow an empty car trailer if you don't have the capacity to tow it fully laden, and it also means you can't tow an unbraked car if its maximum weight is more than 750kg. I think they also had an issue with the two points of articulation you get from A-framing a car. I have no doubt that you could find an equally official source that completely contradicts all that.

 

I don't understand why the law has to be so woolly on this. Surely it wouldn't be hard to make a firm statement on what's allowed and what isn't.

[Cavcraft]

To be honest I think since yonks back when you could claim test exemption and whatever else by strapping a Harvey Frost to a Landrover, the law had always been vague.

 

Another rule I forgot with recovery trucks is that you're not allowed over something like 45% overhang of body behind the reader wheels. Again something else probably roundly ignored by the cops and makes you laugh when you see SWB Transits with very long bodies!

[catsinthewelder]

I don't understand why the law has to be so woolly on this. Surely it wouldn't be hard to make a firm statement on what's allowed and what isn't.

 

Because if they banned all towropes/bars, dollys and A frames then the roads would be covered in broken down cars awaiting removal by a handful of contractors charging a few hundred quid a time to use thier 15T flatbeds. They won't make a firm statement that it's ok in case some determined shitter's A framed Allegro breaks free on the M40 and lands in a kitten petting farm or summut as they will get the blame for allowing it to happen.

[simmo]

Another rule I forgot with recovery trucks is that you're not allowed over something like 45% overhang of body behind the reader wheels. Again something else probably roundly ignored by the cops and makes you laugh when you see SWB Transits with very long bodies!

 

I think for construction and use it's 2/3 the wheelbase as overhang and VOSA are pretty up on it. I took the firm's year old Brimec tilt and slide down for its first MOT and after the tape measure came out it was failed on having 2" too much overhang, requiring a return to the factory to be fixed.

[worldofceri]

The issue with A-framing is to do with the requirement for trailers to have brakes. Any trailer over 750kg gross weight must be braked.

 

That means a car being towed on an A-frame must be braked, since just about every car will have a plated weight over 750kg except those Aixam things. It's nowt to do with the actual weight at the time of towing even if it's under 750kg and within the plated limits of the towing vehicle; it's an illegal trailer, end of.

 

Except, of course, as discussed before, the exception for removing a broken-down vehicle to a safe place. The definition of which could be stretched to include removing some old tat from France to the safety of Cheshire. Perhaps.

[meshking]

I'm going to take a rough guess, but might this be overloaded?

 

[meshking]

Interesting! Does look good, if a little top heavy!

[loserone]

It's one of the original 300 'In Vogue's, as far as the owner is aware. He's already restored a CSK and is working on a sherpa coupe currently (I'm sure saying that will get me kicked)

 

 

Here's a shot from John.

AUGUST 1981 RANGE ROVER 3528cc V8 KAM664X by Johns Car pictures and scans pages., on Flickr

 

I tried to sign up to that forum earlier today actually..

no, that's fine, just point out that the trailer was plated at 3.5T so not overweight.

and was not top heavy either

 

If an admin ever turns up, he'll tell all I'm sure.

 

Edit: Meanwhile, over on the blue place: http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... ead=147441

[meshking]

Oh, I wasn't picking holes! Looks great to me, lovely project too

[CreepingJesus]

I don't wish to pick holes either (har har), but this exactly the kind of thing that's right in that grey area. At an educated guess, two Rangies and a trailer are somewhat over 3.5t; so a tacho would be required. I'm not sure if, by that standard, a C+E licence would be needed to drive it, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. The trailer's all-up weight is over 750kg, and that's all you're allowed to tow with a 7.5 tonner, before it becomes classed in with proper artics and drawbars.

Funnily enough, earlier in the month, I saw a Disco 3 on a trailer, being towed by a Disco 3, up the A90 north of Dundee. The towcar had the name of a 4x4 specialist further north (I forget which one), so they'd have no excuse in VOSA's eyes for not having the relevant equipment and licences. It would clearly be in pursuit of business, and it would be hard to argue otherwise.

Personally, I don't have a problem at all with either the Rangie/Rangie combo, or the double Disco. They're very, very capable towcars, and the double Disco outfit was obviously perfectly stable - it was sitting at 50mph, so I pressed on and overtook it, without it getting out of shape in the lashing it must've got from my artic.

[messerschmitt owner]

A Rangie can tow 3.5 tonnes on top of its own weight - it's whatever it says on the chassis plate as gross train weight.

 

I had a Merc 416cdi with a 2/3 wheelbase overhang, and its max gross weight was 4.6 tonnes and its train weight was 6.6 tonnes (ie it could tow 2 tonnes on top of its maximum laden weight!)

[whitevanman]

A-Frames= simple

A rigid A-frame converts a car into a trailer, there for if it weighs over 750KG it MUST be braked, no exceptions, no grey area...I know I got screwed over this once and it cost me a fortune, now if you get pulled or not is another matter, but they will make you leave the car/trailer and force you to recover it later with a legal combination, oh, and the car/trailer also has to go to a VOSA test station to confirm it complies with the rules before it can be put back on the road.....so even if your car/trailer is road legal, and you get tugged and fail, it has to be towed to the station as a trailer and comply with the trailer regulations BEFORE it can be driven on the road as a car !!!

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Are you saying WVM that if I tow a car on an A-frame and get a pull the car magically becomes a trailer from that point in time? (as opposed to it being an illegally-towed car)?

[Cavcraft]

Also, whilst appreciating what you said about it becoming a trailer, surely if all four wheels of towed car (or van) are touching the floor then it needs MOT, tax and insurance?

All that max train weight stuff still baffles me (sorry, as there are explanations on here) not entirely due to the fact you'd think if a car's kerb weight thing meant it could legally two 850kgs, it also seems it's to do with weight of trailer, weight of towed vehicle and percentages?

 

Fuck knows how it all operates but for the life of me towing (unless a short distance with a rope or bar) seems a royal pain in the arse.