Sporting future shite, recomendations...

[philibusmo]

If you have been following my welding thread then you may have noticed that it may be some time before my Lancia Y10 is on the road again and not full of holes, I have been using my Fiesta for every day duties, but the rear wheel bearings are on the way out, it needs a new water pump and my insurance on that car is limited to 6000 miles, which I have already used almost half of since the begining of May.

All this has meant that I have managed to cunningly persuade myself that I need another car, one newer, less rust prone and not as likely to explode, kill me in a small accident or catch fire. In other words, I need something boring. However not too boring as the drive home is about the besta part of my average work day, a low ranking job in IT is not quite so fun as it sounds.

Being 20 I cannot afford to insure any of the V6 French luxo-barges that I covert deeply, but it does turn out that I can insure some suprisingly sprightly automobiles, as I have been driving for over 2 years with no accidents, murders or loss of eye sight.

I have been drawing up a bit of a short* list for possible contenders, all are approximatly 2 litres in engine capacity and all are a little unloved and CHEAP. If anyone could give me some proper pros and cons on each that would be most appreciated. Other suggestions are always welcome as long as they are not a small vauxhall of the two pedal variety.

(All adverts shown are mearly an example, it may be a month or so before I can afford to buy the car, so I do not intend on buying the cars shown, if they look a little ropey, don't worry)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2002-SAAB-9-3 ... 6947977590

2002 Saab 93 2.0 SE Turbo.

Pros:

I would look like a well mannered architect

Suprisingly cheap

Saabs seem to always be nice places to be

Cons:

Insurance is a tad high, but not too much

I have heard that the Saab Turbos drink fuel a little too quickly

Parts are allegedly expensive

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120936295680? ... 1423.l2649

Mazda 323F 2.0 Sport

Pros:

Probably very reliable

Unloved so they are quite cheap to buy

A good looking little bus

Cons:

I would likely be bored of it quite quickly and end up chopping it on for a Beige Austin Princess

Am I right in saying that these have rot problems?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2001-ALFA-ROM ... 27c87662e2

Alfa Romeo 156 2.0 Twin Spark Veloce

Pros:

It's an Alfa Romeo

Cons:

It's an Alfa Romeo

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2005-54-MG-ZT ... 2ebc1de992

MG ZT 1.8T 160+

Pros:

Cheap to insure!

Looks great

BL Heritage*

Fast as a bastard (compared to a 1.1 Fiesta)

Cons:

OMFG HGF!!!1!!one!!

It's a Grandads rover in a hard man disguise

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1997-Rover-41 ... 2a16d29fcb

Rover 416 Tourer

Pros:

One of the best looking shapes of EVA in my oppinion

I have big plans involving some serious auto-shite mods for one of these

I have already promised KruJoe that I will by a pre-facelift bonnet from him to put on one of these

Cons:

Slow compared to the rest of them

Not much cheaper to insure

I would imagine that no-one would let me out of a side turning, automatically assuming I am 97 years old

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2002-NISSAN-P ... 231e402372

Nissan Primera 2.0 16v Sport

Pros:

Reliable

GR9 handling

Cheap as a newspaper of fried potatoe

Cons:

Annonymous

Dull

Tedious

Dreary

Grey

Miserable

Bland

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/320927796658? ... 1423.l2649

Peugeot 405 1.6 Style

Pros:

The seats are like new

Cons:

Its not shite, its just shit.

 

So there we have it, what do you think and do you have any other reasonable suggestions?

Here is a list of stuff that I cannot insure yet or I just don't want for various reasons

Rover 800

All Citroens

All Peugeots

All Renaults

Ford Sierra

Ford Mondeo

Vauxhall Vectra

BMW Anything

Honda Accord

[Spiny Norman]

Out of that lot, my heart would say an Alfa 156. If you get a good one it'll make you smile every day.

Head says Saab though. Wonderfully thrusty, smooth, comfy old barges that no-one seems to want for no other reason than they've gone bust.

[rml2345]

I would choose the Saab too, as they do always seem to be lovely places to sit.

Actually, I'd buy a knackered old Volvo from a field because I'd got bored looking for Saabs and spend quite alot making it slightly less shit.

Don't do that.

[Justin Case]

Alfa (but then I would say that ) but how about a 147 like this instead of the 156 default choice?

 

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/3960662.htm

 

Only a 1.6 so insurance should be reasonable, but they will go well enough, otherwise much as 156, main bits surprisingly trouble-free but no doubt there will be odd electrical glitches with windows, locks, etc. Just check that cambelt and rear suspension have been done within living memory

 

Are LPT Saab 9-3s more reliable than full turbos as they are less stressed; it was certainly the case with non-turbo v turbo classic 900s. If so then that could be a better bet than the full-fat version.

[Spiny Norman]

Actually, talking about Volvos, how about a nice old 850/S70?

The 190bhp turbo ones crop up quite frequently on the Volvo forum for well under a grand in decent nick.

I found the 'cooking' turbos were quite reasonable to insure when I was looking at them. (Although these things are relative when you're the wrong side of 40 with a full NCB, by cheaper I mean nearer £300 than £400... )

[philibusmo]

I had a peak at volvos and they are surprisingly expensive insurance wise, like bmws, v6 stuff and rover 800s. Hatchbacks with sporting pretentions are also out of the equation. Similarly quick ones compare to this selection are twice the premium.

 

I am leaning more towards the Alfa Romeo, mg and Saab.

To be honest the Saab is very very nice but has about a £150 extra on insurance compared to the other two, I'm not sure if it would be worth it.

Hmmmmm

[Spiny Norman]

The 160bhp lump in the MG is the worst engine they came with IMHO. All the slowness of the Diesel with the mpg of the bigger V6s as it tries to haul what is a good ton and a half of car up the road at a reasonable pace. And that's before you factor on "OMGHGF" I might risk a V6 ZT but I really couldn't make a case for the 1.8 turbo unless it was pennies.

 

Bear in mind insurance seems to change depending on what time of day you ask for a quote, so in the month or so till you're looking it could all change.

I found the premium for a S type Jag V8 I was looking at (same car) fell by over £100 in the space of a week.

[Ross_K]

Out of that lot, my heart would say an Alfa 156. If you get a good one it'll make you smile every day.

 

if you get a bad one you'll cry every day. It's been a while since I've owned a 156 - which died of a snapped cambelt. Speaking of which, didn't they revise the cambelt interval down to 30k or 36k or something like that.

 

GR9 looking car but I'm guessing most lower spec ones are circling the drain now.

[skattrd]

Yes, cambelt change for the Alfas is 30k, so if you do go for one make sure theres history of when it was last done.

[sporty-shite]

Out of that lot, my heart would say an Alfa 156. If you get a good one it'll make you smile every day.

 

if you get a bad one you'll cry every day. It's been a while since I've owned a 156 - which died of a snapped cambelt. Speaking of which, didn't they revise the cambelt interval down to 30k or 36k or something like that.

 

GR9 looking car but I'm guessing most lower spec ones are circling the drain now.

 

Just a point, but doing a cambelt on a twinspark isn't that difficult. Yes, you need timing tools, but they aren't that dear, and I found they made the job easier. Find one that needs a belt, bargain down, do the belt, and know it's right.

[Largactil]

My t'uppence worth regarding the 156...

 

I owned this from Late 2006 -> Early 2008

 

 

It was a 60k minter when I bought it - Belonged to my mate's older brother who was anal about detail and had owned it from when it was 6 months old.

 

Fantastic car for the money - The steering was brilliant, it handled very well and the Twinspark engine willing / musical...

 

It was also the most unreliable car I've owned to date...

 

In 18 months of ownership, my previously well cared for Alfa:

 

Ate suspension bushes

Needed x2 rear dampers

Rear wiper motor packed in - Had to strip it down and knock the spindle out with a punch (somewhat seized)

Both rear electric window motors / regulators packed in - Had to strip the doors and replace

ABS light illuminated - Needed a new sensor (unavailable secondhand - £130 new)

Variator failed

 

Final straw, was when the clutch died without warning on the Kingsway in Dundee (a 50mph urban carriageway, used heavily by HGVs, with no layby's / hard shoulder) - Had no facilities to attempt to repair myself, my tried & trusted mechanic refused to tackle it (too much hassle), Alfa wanted £1000+ to do it etc.

 

In the end, my brother in law changed it on his drive using ramps - Had to drop the subframe to get clearance to pull the gearbox out the NSF arch - Reckons it would have better to pull the whole engine / gearbox out to do the job...Took him 11 hours start to finish...

 

I'd paid £4200 for it in Sept 2006 - When selling in March 2008 (at 84k miles), I tried to get £2500 for it...Then £2000...Not a sniff in two months.

 

Was offered £800 trade in by Arnold Clark, but eventually flogged to a mate for £1200 (Who, it has to be said, put 30k on it, with only routine servicing / x1 cambelt & variator change).

 

Despite this, no real regrets - It was charming enough when it worked to make up for the constant niggles.

 

I think everyone should own an Alfa at some point in life...

[Cavcraft]

Alfa 156, obv. not a Sillyspeed one.

SAAB? Cost of running one would be a killer I reckon.

MG: How about a 1.4 ZR? Yeah, yeah K-seal and all that but if you get one where the h/g has been done properly and it's been well maintained you'd be ok.

Primera: Not a bad car at all. Bit plasticky inside (typical Jap) and you won't be fighting the flange off with a shitty stick but they're well made and reliable in my limited experience of the things.

Honda Civic? Bit dull but pull well, pretty well made and nicely spec'd and should be cheap enough to buy. I don't know where you reside but if you're in/near Cheshire you can have a drive of mine if you like, it's only a 1.4 but goes really well. It's not for sale by the way so I'm not trying to attempt a sale here!

[Rocket88]

Anything with a VAG 1.8 turbo lump. I know this will incite the VAG group haters, but they're pretty much unbreakable if looked after. Circa 2000 Passat would probably be in budget. Diverter valves ,MAFs , coolant temp senders are all known weak points, but are cheap to replace. Coil packs also fail occasionally, but again, cheap to replace.

Bit gloomy inside, but well screwed together, and not bad on juice.

[tonedepear]

I loved my saab 9-3 turbo. They're piss easy to make even faster as well, for a giggle. They don't do corners well though, and the steering rack is held on to the bulkhead with double sided sticky tape and chewing gum, which is what's killing them I think.

 

Ooh, and it was pretty thirsty.

 

I only got slightly more than scrap money for mine with a few months test on it, so I assume they're still dirt cheap.

 

IMGP2295 by Tony Lloyd, on Flickr

[Ross_K]

There's a mod to fix the steering rack thing, isn't there? I vaguely remember Edd China fitting one on Wheeler Dealers..

[philibusmo]

The expences involved has mostlyput me off the idea of a Saab, from what I would save in fuel and insurance, I bet I could pay for a good few repairs on the Alfa Romeo.

I'm suprised the MG has been so derided, I though that assuming the head gasket is doen the K Series is otherwise a very competant engine, or maybe I have spent too much time reading articles on AROnline. To be honest the interior looks a very nice place to be, to look at it is pretty brutal and with 160BHP it can't be that bad can it?

Regardless I think I would probably still prefere the Alfa Romeo, with leather and in a good colour. I don't think there are any cars with a nicer interior or exterior in this price bracket and car size.

At this point I have pretty much discounted the Japs entirely, I don't think I could face the blandness, the same applies for the VAG 1.8s. My dad used to have a 1.8 Pisshat, and it was not quick, handled like a barge and was just dull all over, if very dependable and built like an ancient monument. To make one interesting, you really need to mod it, and if you mod it you invariably end up looking like a bell end. Not a desirable outcome.

Any other suggestions before I go hunting?

[Ross_K]

Any other suggestions before I go hunting?

 

Can't believe I'm saying this but: 3 Series?

 

406 2.0 turbo:

 

Or on that theme, a 406 coupe? One of the most gorgeous cars of the last 20 years IMHO...

[dollywobbler]

I'm going to second the call for the Alfa 147. A friend has one and it's perky, well built and looks pretty tasty. I'd like a 156 myself though. They are stunningly attractive. Does the 2.4JTD still suffer from OMG insurance for you? Warbling five pot and decent economy.

[Rocket88]

[, the same applies for the VAG 1.8s. My dad used to have a 1.8 Pisshat, and it was not quick, handled like a barge and was just dull all over, if very dependable and built like an ancient monument. To make one interesting, you really need to mod it, and if you mod it you invariably end up looking like a bell end. Not a desirable outcome.

Any other suggestions before I go hunting?

 

 

 

 

 

As I've just bought a 2.8 4motion Passat [with a supercharger] I look forward to a visit from my local campanoligist.

[Lankytim]

Want my bosses old Saab 9-5? 2000 W reg, MOT till Feb, 2 litre turbo auto, FSH. Problem with heater motor (or something). Not sure on price, but it's going to be CHEAP.

[Spiny Norman]

I'm suprised the MG has been so derided, I though that assuming the head gasket is doen the K Series is otherwise a very competant engine, or maybe I have spent too much time reading articles on AROnline. To be honest the interior looks a very nice place to be, to look at it is pretty brutal and with 160BHP it can't be that bad can it?

 

160bhp with 1500Kg to lug doesn't make for a fast car, unfortunately. The 2 litre Alfa 156 has either 5bhp more or less depending on whether it's the old twin spark engine or the newer JTS model, but crucially it weighs 200Kg less, that's 2 very fat mates.

And personal experience says that it's perfectly possible to buy a Rover engined car with the super-duper new HG and still have the fucker blow its stack a year later, so be warned.

 

Can't say I'm particularly keen on VAG cars but it's more down to the dull drive and the over-egging of "OMG VW reliability" rather than any issues with the cars themselves, but the old Seat Leon would be another suggestion, it even looks a bit like an Alfasud if you squint.

 

Without so many brown bits, obviously...

[tonedepear]

There's a mod to fix the steering rack thing, isn't there? I vaguely remember Edd China fitting one on Wheeler Dealers..

 

Parts for saabs and/or Abbot racing did a brace which shores it up a bit as long as it's not already damaged. last time I looked they were a good £300, but they've come down to £100 now, which is a bit more like.

 

http://www.partsforsaabs.com/product_info.php?products_id=2894

[philibusmo]

Want my bosses old Saab 9-5? 2000 W reg, MOT till Feb, 2 litre turbo auto, FSH. Problem with heater motor (or something). Not sure on price, but it's going to be CHEAP.

 

If it wasn't an auto I would be all over that. However auto-boxes are the work of the devil. No autos and no diesels.

 

The 406 Coupe was one I hadn't considered but is now firmly on my radar.

 

Whilst doing a spot of research I have heard good things about the 1.8 TS as well as the 2.0 TS 156. Any opinions on these?

Also what do people know about 2.0 Vauxhall Carlton, except for disolving wheel arches of course. Is one of those a stupid idea?

[Rocket88]

. Any opinions on these?

Also what do people know about 2.0 Vauxhall Carlton, except for disolving wheel arches of course. Is one of those a stupid idea?

 

Good old barges, not that quick, but very comfy, and well equipped [espesh in CD form] rear wheel drive as well. Mint ones do turn up, as they are a favourite of the giffer brigade. Last decently styled Vauxhall. Omegas aren't bad either, although the Carlton is better looking [imho]

[Spiny Norman]

Whilst doing a spot of research I have heard good things about the 1.8 TS as well as the 2.0 TS 156. Any opinions on these?

 

To be honest, if you find any nice petrol 4 pot 156 that's been cared for and has had the belts done recently, just buy it. (Or even the V6, but that might be a bit juicy on fuel and insurance, although in many ways it's a far better engine) The 2.0 Twin Spark is probably the 'sweet spot' in the engine range but 1.8 doesn't give enough away that I'd turn down a nice one.

Even the 1.6 is worth considering, given that it has roughly the same power to weight ration as that 1.8 turbo MG you were talking about. The possibility of near 40mpg in regular use is another plus point for the 1.6, along with its slightly lower insurance rating.

I'd certainly recommend a nice 156 (I had a 2 litre for 4 years) but do your homework before you buy, because they can bite you quite hard in the wallet.

 

A VX Carlton is a nice enough car for an 80s rehash of a 70s design, but it's not a contender compared to the cars you're considering even assuming you can find a decent one.

[Pete-M]

2.0 Carltons are severely limited, performance wise. They go well enough once they're moving, but around town they're a rolling roadblock. Not bad to drive though.

 

I take it a 406 3.0 is off the cards? They drive rather well and the 3.0 has enough grunt to shift the substantial weight of a 406 quite happily. 2.0 Turbo is ok, but slightly pointless when the V6 exists. 2.0 NA isn't quick, but can be reasonably fuel efficient on a run. Friend of mine regularly gets mid to high 30s from his. 406s are mega-comfy too.

 

Alfa 156s are lovely when they're on form. Steering lock to rival a supertanker is the trade off for the quick rack. Cambelt, variator and tensioners is a fiddly job but with the right tools and a bit of experience can be done in a couple of hours, variator isn't cheap. Regular oil changes are vital on Alfa lumps, first sign you've left it too late is a flickering oil light at idle, it only gets worse from there. Clutch slave cylinders are made from low strength cheese and for some bizarre reason Alfa moved the slave from sitting happily on top of the bell housing and being easy to change on a 155 to inside the bell housing on the 156 resulting in a gearbox out job. Front wishbones last about as long as a Pink Floyd single. Selespeed is a liability. Ignore those who tell you "it's the way you drive", it's not, it's a bad design and if you give the thing any beans at all you'll be forever rebuilding the gearbox and replacing the clutch - both are an arsehole of a job to do and Selespeed boxes had a 10k life on average when I worked for Avis... I had a 1.8 TS 155 (140 bhp) and whilst it wasn't bad, it wasn't very quick and despite all you'll hear from Alfa apologists I didn't think it sounded all that good either. 2.0 is better when it comes to grunt, but still not quick. 2.5 is a tiny bit quicker and sounds great but feels very nose-heavy in comparison to the 1.8/2.0. 2.0 will do around 26-28 mpg in town driven sensibly, 1.8 around 28 mpg more of the time. 2.5 closer to 23-25 mpg a lot of the time

 

I'd suggest an Impreza, but if insurance is an issue..

[ayd]

I have a 2.0 SE 9-5, had it for 10 years and it's been great.

Hardly sporty but the 2.0 lump pulls well but as it's been pointed out...not hugely economical. I'm getting around 30mpg on a short run, 38 if I take a steady jaunt up the Motorway. Boot is cavernous and it's generally quite a nice place to be.

 

Had the turbo go on mine a few years ago and was told by a mechanic friend who is ex Saab mechanic this is due to a 'sludge' problem as the oil strainer sits too low in the sump so the holes in the strainer can get blocked with sludge at the bottom of the sump and starve the turbo...was supposed to be an issue with the 2.3 engines but seems to hit early registration 2.0 models too. Hefty bill but that's pretty much all I've had to replace other than general wear and tear parts.

 

Service parts are reasonable and the Saab owners club seem to fall over themselves to help out, got a full O/S wing mirror inc. Glass and interior trim panels for £25 from one club member after mine was removed and relocated 50 yards down the road.

 

The trip computer will more often than not have missing lines on the LCD, common problem, there is a cheap fix if you google around for it.

 

TBH the 9-5 is coming up for replacement and I think I'll replace it with another Saab.

[Guest]

Given that 9-3s are more or less rebodied Mk3 Cavaliers I was surprised by how much I like my aunt's LPT.

 

The interior was pretty rank, and round the corners it made my 460 feel well honed, which is not a compliment. Her's was low mileage and on new shockers, too.

 

Went well for a porridge car though - even though the visibility out the back was shockingly crap. They seem like a lot of car for the money - although if I was having a Saab I'd spend my mythical monkey on a moon mileage 900 Turbo 16 with frigged door bottoms instead. You can fuck right off if you think I'm going to Durham to get it, mind.

 

I still want a 156 of some kind. I'll probably end up with the North West's shonkiest 2.5 V6 come next pay day. Still, will probably give Pete-M a laugh as I take out a small Cheshire village with it trying to be enthusiastic about my driving.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

Out of that lot, my heart would say an Alfa 156. If you get a good one it'll make you smile every day.

 

if you get a bad one you'll cry every day. It's been a while since I've owned a 156 - which died of a snapped cambelt. Speaking of which, didn't they revise the cambelt interval down to 30k or 36k or something like that.

 

GR9 looking car but I'm guessing most lower spec ones are circling the drain now.

 

The did reduce the belt interval in @ 2008, but that's the least of it's problems. So many seem to be as rusty as an old horseshoe underneath and the Twin Spark engine isn't as bulletproof as it might be. There are too many on Ebay with the engine in trouble.

 

I'd go for the Scab 93. They're such a pleasant old bus and a non turbo 2.0 goes reasonably well. Gotta have the wood and leather though, and the 93 shell isn't as rust resistant as the 900 for some reason.

[ayd]

Still, will probably give Pete-M a laugh as I take out a small Cheshire village with it trying to be enthusiastic about my driving.

 

try and avoid my 74 year old Mum in her Alfa 147 will you, she's only just got it back from the garage and has been quoted as saying 'it's quite nice to actually drive it for a change and not just sit and look at it'.