Bus Shite

[Inspector Morose]

  On 26/04/2025 at 10:10, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

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It’s nice to see one of these in WMPTE colours, as some did transfer over in 1973 when the PTE made a polo mint out of Midland Reds territory, but this particular one stayed red, passing to Midland Red East (later Midland Fox) and surviving in service until 1985 when it was saved for preservation.

There was no WMPTE fleet number 6225. Well, if there was (and contrary to popular belief, i do not have fleetlists to hand while I’m in bed) it certainly wasn’t this bus.

[Inspector Morose]

  On 26/04/2025 at 10:17, The Old Bloke Next Door said:

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872 was Walsalls last new trolleybus. Nicknamed growlers, due to the noisy double reduction back axle fitted to the second batch of these, this one was decked out on the last day with special signs on the side proclaiming the end of the Walsall system - illuminated by fluorescent tubes.

There is some interest as Walsall had been absorbed by the WMPTE at this time, making this the only trolleybus system to operate under a PTE. However, even though all of the corporation crests and names were painted over on the trolleybuses, none ever received West Midlands fleetnames or logos, unlike some other equally short lived motorbuses. There is some debate that the trolleybuses were actually still under the control of Walsall council and not the PTE, (due to the blanket powers given to all PTEs by the government to take control of all motorbus services within its jurisdiction (a trolleybus comes under light rail and therefore is not actually a ‘bus’ - weird eh?)hence the lack of fleetnames and why it was given the heave-ho relatively quickly.  
 

oh, and yes, I have driven it under the wires (albeit not on public roads - I’m not that old).

[lesapandre]

I remember seeing these on the road before they finished.

And the idea has returned in London in a different form.

I'd say that pantograph charging is the way forward for bigger electic vans and lorries.

[danthecapriman]

  On 28/04/2025 at 09:17, lesapandre said:

I remember seeing these on the road before they finished.

And the idea has returned in London in a different form.

I'd say that pantograph charging is the way forward for bigger electic vans and lorries.

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Jesus Christ! Whoever styled those needs publicly executing! This is why I hate electric vehicles, because they mostly seem to be styled in this same gopping futuristic style. It’s absolutely awful.

[lesapandre]

It's a little better in reality - but not great. Very poor ride and very plasticy inside with uncomfortable 'bucket' seats. They pull away a bit too fast for passenger comfort - and the driver on the one I was on braked too hard at stops - may be due to the controls.

Those lower windows are very odd too. Slope to front not perfect for London conditions.

But as a piece of innovation a first step. 

[danthecapriman]

  On 28/04/2025 at 09:51, lesapandre said:

It's a little better in reality - but not great. Very poor ride and very plasticy inside with uncomfortable 'bucket' seats. They pull away a bit too fast for passenger comfort - and the driver on the one I was on braked too hard at stops - may be due to the controls.

Those lower windows are very odd too. Slope to front not perfect for London conditions.

But as a piece of innovation a first step. 

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I must admit, I’m not a fan of innovation!😆

Bring back the Routemaster!

[lesapandre]

Just lovely things - they were so nice to use. Very jolly and sociable too - folk used to talk more.

[danthecapriman]

  On 28/04/2025 at 09:57, lesapandre said:

Just lovely things - they were so nice to use. Very jolly and sociable too - folk used to talk more.

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I watch a lot of these old videos on YouTube of the Routemaster’s and other buses in London. 
This guy has loads. And Trains too if your interested in those.

A completely different era. 

 

[SilverMachine]

  On 27/04/2025 at 16:15, Inspector Morose said:

On the way back from Dundee, what did we stumble across but a Royal Tiger on its way south.

Apparently, being sacrificed to help with the gargantuan rebuild of the severely fire damaged King Alfred Olympic.

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thats a great thing, its amazing so much of the glass has survived with the damage to the roof! are there any pictures of the fire damaged king alfred? (prior and post fire) dose look like the roof structure has had a tree or something land on it! but other than that it dont look like its missing much on one side at least! maybe they will decide this is better than the other?

[Inspector Morose]

It's about 50/50 which one is the worse but as the king Alfred olympic is one of only a tiny handful of survivors around the world and the fact that it had been the poster child of fokab after its incredible restoration from it's field in Ireland state, there's no doubt which one is being done!

There is another coronation bodied royal tiger from that batch preserved already so there's no great loss in it giving up it's mechanical bits for the cause. The body is totally shot but bits like the glass and the odd fixture and fitting can go on to be used as spares for the other coronation royal tiger at the SVBM.

For current photos of the olympic, look up JAA708. It's heartbreaking to see it now.

[danthecapriman]

  On 28/04/2025 at 14:50, Inspector Morose said:

It's about 50/50 which one is the worse but as the king Alfred olympic is one of only a tiny handful of survivors around the world and the fact that it had been the poster child of fokab after its incredible restoration from it's field in Ireland state, there's no doubt which one is being done!

There is another coronation bodied royal tiger from that batch preserved already so there's no great loss in it giving up it's mechanical bits for the cause. The body is totally shot but bits like the glass and the odd fixture and fitting can go on to be used as spares for the other coronation royal tiger at the SVBM.

For current photos of the olympic, look up JAA708. It's heartbreaking to see it now.

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I just looked it up… you’re absolutely right, that is heartbreaking. What an awful thing to happen to it.

[SilverMachine]

just looked into it, hopefully it can be saved and nothing mechanical got too toasty although iit looks like it got rather hot, but is the suggested donor not a much more endangered beast? could a different donor contribute parts for both? i guess the curved windscreen manufacturers are no longer in operation, and there probably rarer than common sense!

http://www.bob-mockford.co.uk/photos/winchester2017-1903/IMG_4461.jpg

[Yoss]

  On 27/04/2025 at 22:03, Inspector Morose said:

(a trolleybus comes under light rail and therefore is not actually a ‘bus’ - weird eh?)

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I don't know if this is a Europe wide state of affairs but it would perhaps explain why trolleybuses over there don't have registration plates. Or if they do it is just a fleet number. 

Meanwhile have some random bus action from my travels last week. 

Budapest. We don't see many MAN buses at home do we. 

Seems most normal buses are MAN and bendys are Mercs. 

 

Braşov. 

Have a large fleet of SOR electric buses. SOR are a Czech company that don't seem to have any link to Škoda. Either way it seems the Czechs have the electric/trolleybus market sewn up. As well as SOR and Škoda, Solaris are quite common. They are Polish built but use Škoda running gear. 

 

This is a Menarinibus! An Italian company that I've never seen anywhere but Braşov. 

 

Charging stations at Braşov Station. They seem to have plug in and pantograph charging. 

 

Meanwhile at the other end of Braşov Station forecourt. I saw one of these in the exact same spot last year but it was a different one. 

 

And then on to Sibiu. 

This is one of the aforementioned Solaris. 

It looks like a trolleybus with missing poles. Maybe that's a charging device. 

And behind it an Isuzu. Definitely never seen any of these at home either. 

 

I'm not sure this is even a bus! 

 

 

[Inspector Morose]

  On 28/04/2025 at 19:00, SilverMachine said:

just looked into it, hopefully it can be saved and nothing mechanical got too toasty although iit looks like it got rather hot, but is the suggested donor not a much more endangered beast? could a different donor contribute parts for both? i guess the curved windscreen manufacturers are no longer in operation, and there probably rarer than common sense!

http://www.bob-mockford.co.uk/photos/winchester2017-1903/IMG_4461.jpg

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The Alexander body on that Royal tiger is deader than a dead thing, it would need a complete frame and stress panels before you even got on to all the bits that are missing due to it being converted into a camper in the 70s. As Ive said, there is already one of the same batch safely complete, restored, and preserved so bits taken from this one will no doubt got into the stock of spares for the other one. There really is no need for the duplication of vehicles if it came down to one or the other. Restore both? Yeah, you're looking at the thick end of a few hundred grand for that Royal Tiger; want to chip in? Thought not and there is only so much money to go round to save these things for future generations.
 

As has always been said, you can’t save them all and its a much better fate for this to the contribute towards the re-restoration of JAA708 and provide spares for the other identical Coronation bodied Royal Tiger than for it to be taken on and drain the constantly dwindling resources of those museums, groups and individuals who are out there trying their best, potentially putting other projects at a greater risk of failure.

JAA, as an historical piece is so very important as it not only shows the development of early underfloor engined buses in the UK but demonstrates the technological advanced of bus building technology of the time with its integral construction. As a bus that was owned by a pretty well renowned independent, it shows the state of play with operators outside of the BET and Tilling groups and shows what larger independents were buying and operating. It is very much an important and unique part of the story of the bus in the UK whereas the other, although very rare, is a duplication of a representative of the type of early underfloor engined coach bought by major Scottish operators and that’s really all that it could contribute to the ‘story’.

[SilverMachine]

  On 28/04/2025 at 22:31, Inspector Morose said:

Restore both? Yeah, you're looking at the thick end of a few hundred grand for that Royal Tiger; want to chip in? Thought not and there is only so much money to go round to save these things for future generations.

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i have recently offered my time and skills to a local bus preservation group! still waiting there response. although several of the local railway preservation groups are always asking for volunteers so may have to go see some of them instead there probably more interested in my machining and toolmaking background......

[Inspector Morose]

  On 29/04/2025 at 09:17, SilverMachine said:

i have recently offered my time and skills to a local bus preservation group! still waiting there response. although several of the local railway preservation groups are always asking for volunteers so may have to go see some of them instead there probably more interested in my machining and toolmaking background......

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Volunteering is a good thing to do. Machining and toolmaking might be better used at railways, you're right, but if you can weild a spanner, or are willing to try your hand at other things, like woodworking (bus and railway coach frames), you can soon be in demand with other groups, once your name is known within the circles. There have been many a second career (or second income) started by those who started volunteering with groups and found a niche.

I eventually did 18 years at the Black Country Museum, working on the trolleybuses and eventually had other owners bringing their buses down for me to work on them. All gone now; I don't thing the trolleys even run down there anymore, but do I regret the years of effort put in? Nah, it was fun and I learned so many new things. I even got a job at a motor museum from it!

[High Jetter]

  On 29/04/2025 at 19:26, Inspector Morose said:

I eventually did 18 years at the Black Country Museum, working on the trolleybuses and eventually had other owners bringing their buses down for me to work on them. All gone now; I don't thing the trolleys even run down there anymore, but do I regret the years of effort put in? Nah, it was fun and I learned so many new things. I even got a job at a motor museum from it!

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I'd have thought the BCM was worthwhile? Can you share who has the benefit of your skills?

[Inspector Morose]

The BCM has moved a lot more corporate these days, it's still bloody good and forever expanding but it just isn't that concerned with the minutae of stuff, more giving an experience to the public (folk pay well for that these days) rather than slavish historical accuracy.

Stuff I learned while I was there helped on the car museum, of help was the then director of the BCM and I were on good terms and he pointed me in directions to learn about the museum industry.

The bus and trolleybus stuff got used in my day job of the time(and future). I used to go to Sandtoft quite a lot and helped on the restorations and running of the various stuff there. It's all experiences at the end of the day, and the more and varied of those, the more interesting life becomes.

I've sort of become one of a few  fonts of knowledge on the Leyland National, appearing in a dvd on the subject and being on panels of experts at talks. Again,of little real use but all very interesting (unless you're busmansholiday).

[SunnySouth]

I was rather expecting that the toasted King Alfred Olympic might have ended up staying largely as it is - eerily the front end of it, whilst very obviously crispy, survived to a just about recognisable degree, and of course the rest of it has melted. I thought perhaps they might have rebuilt the front end but left the remainder alone, as a sort of ‘telling its story’ museum curio.

I understand the obvious desire to restore it, but in reality it’ll be little more than a replica by the time it’s finished. I very much hope that the oily bits and chassis components can be reused, but I also very much doubt it - the building which went up in flames was sufficiently hot to melt several other vehicles beyond the point of recognition, so I’d be amazed if much is left of the mechanicals that aren’t knackered - but I’d be happy if I was wrong! I hope it doesn’t soak up too much funding from the rest of the fleet.

[Inspector Morose]

Luckily, the insurance company has paid out and allowed them to keep the remains to rebuild so money is less of a concern. TBH, looking at the previous rebuild from Irish bog state, it was more recreation anyway so it was never the exact vehicle that roamed the mean streets of Winchester anyway. 

Buses, coaches, trains, anything public transport is rebuilt and modified over its lifetime so its debatable how much of many preserved vehicles are actually the original material so that argument, although quite a legitimate one, can’t really be applied here.

As I’ve said before, it’s such a well known bus, it’s restoration is well documented as a ‘that’s how you do a full restoration of a bus properly’, and its importance i the history of not only local but the wider bus industry trends and ideas of the time, it will be rebuilt yet again. What percentage that Royal Tiger will donate probably will be tiny, just the unobtanium odds and sods that would have perished in the fire will probably all that it will contribute to that. What its greater value is to the SCBM are the many parts as spares for their own restored Coronation bodied Tiger from the same batch - I would hazard a guess that this was part of the sweetener for them to take the rebuild of JAA on.

[lisbon_road]

  On 30/04/2025 at 19:07, Inspector Morose said:

Luckily, the insurance company has paid out and allowed them to keep the remains to rebuild so money is less of a concern. TBH, looking at the previous rebuild from Irish bog state, it was more recreation anyway so it was never the exact vehicle that roamed the mean streets of Winchester anyway. 

Buses, coaches, trains, anything public transport is rebuilt and modified over its lifetime so its debatable how much of many preserved vehicles are actually the original material so that argument, although quite a legitimate one, can’t really be applied here.

As I’ve said before, it’s such a well known bus, it’s restoration is well documented as a ‘that’s how you do a full restoration of a bus properly’, and its importance i the history of not only local but the wider bus industry trends and ideas of the time, it will be rebuilt yet again. What percentage that Royal Tiger will donate probably will be tiny, just the unobtanium odds and sods that would have perished in the fire will probably all that it will contribute to that. What its greater value is to the SCBM are the many parts as spares for their own restored Coronation bodied Tiger from the same batch - I would hazard a guess that this was part of the sweetener for them to take the rebuild of JAA on.

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I don't know how it works, but the supporters group for King Alfred seem extraordinary.  I am very happy that they are sorting JAA and I suppose we have to accept that not many parts are original.  There isn't a lot of choice after all.  I just feel lucky to see their vehicles, though I must admit that the last Winchester rally I went to was very poorly attended.  I don't know why.