Bus Shite

[Remspoor]

23 hours ago, jon.k said:

I saw this near Calais in the summer.

Boat storage?

[martc]

This could go in several threads, but it's the coach that interests me - I remember these in the '70's, but what is it?

(the loco is the 'Western Prince', the location is Dawlish in the red hot year of 1976 and the van lasted until 12/11/1985).

[martc]

This is an O319 minibus based on a L319 van. Got the touch of an angler fish about it.

[artdjones]

9 minutes ago, martc said:

This could go in sveral threads, but it's the coach that interests me - I remember these in the '70's, but what is it?

(the loco is the 'Western Prince', the location is Dawlish in the red hot year of 1976 and the van lasted until 12/11/1985).

It looks like GWO4D, one of Red and White's  Bristol RELH ECW bodied coaches . With a Gardner engine.

Probably the best coache for long distance express work ever built in the UK. Fast , comfortable, very durable and very economical.

That's one in its natural habitat, Cheltenham Coach Station.

[MiniMinorMk3]

Every Little Helps (Brighton 1974). 

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For the car spotters, it's a Matra Bagheera

[Inspector Morose]

10 hours ago, artdjones said:

Probably the best coache for long distance express work ever built in the UK. Fast , comfortable, very durable and very economical.

As long as you don't want boot capacity...

Yeah, I'm being facetious and I know that the RE did have a small boot behind the engine, along with small side lockers but that really wasn't a patch on something like a Leopard (as long as it's not a B51 bodied one that had a tendency to dump its boot and contents onto the road).

The RE was vaguely comparable to the Rover 75, in that having started out as a well-specified chassis but then was slowly de-contented over the years to become a bit of a shadow of what it could have become. If it wasn't for that pesky Leyland National <shakes tiny fist into the air>.

I sometimes wonder, if the National never got off the drawing board and the RE was developed along the lines of what Bristol wanted to do with it - it would have been utterly unbeatable in the service bus/semi-coach market. For coach work? I think there were better chassis out there (AEC Reliance 760 would take some beating, it pains me to say).

[artdjones]

3 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

As long as you don't want boot capacity...

Yeah, I'm being facetious and I know that the RE did have a small boot behind the engine, along with small side lockers but that really wasn't a patch on something like a Leopard (as long as it's not a B51 bodied one that had a tendency to dump its boot and contents onto the road).

The RE was vaguely comparable to the Rover 75, in that having started out as a well-specified chassis but then was slowly de-contented over the years to become a bit of a shadow of what it could have become. If it wasn't for that pesky Leyland National <shakes tiny fist into the air>.

I sometimes wonder, if the National never got off the drawing board and the RE was developed along the lines of what Bristol wanted to do with it - it would have been utterly unbeatable in the service bus/semi-coach market. For coach work? I think there were better chassis out there (AEC Reliance 760 would take some beating, it pains me to say).

Definitely the Reliance would be better for long distance tours. 

I believe Northern Ireland wouldn't take the National at first and insisted on further batches of the RE.

[Inspector Morose]

1 minute ago, artdjones said:

Definitely the Reliance would be better for long distance tours. 

I believe Northern Ireland wouldn't take the National at first and insisted on further batches of the RE.

Yup NI tried a National early on and didn't like it. Odd as the general manager at the time (the legend that was Werner Heubeck) was quite the fan of the European, more technically advanced, bus designs. But, and it was a rather big one, NI needed something rugged, reliable and cheap to run and repair. Costly passenger comfort and convenience simply weren't on the table when you never were sure how many of your fleet would be coming back to the depot each night. You needed something that was simple, could be repaired cheaply and quickly, and was rugged enough to cope with any ham-fisted driver that was thrown at it and Heubeck knew that the RE (and Leopard) was just the right chassis for the job.

When Leyland told Heubeck that he couldn't have any more REs, he just got up and told the reps that he's got a flight to visit Mercedes that day and he'll be catching it then. Hurried phone calls later and NI was 're-classified' as an export country so that NI could still order REs like it wanted to (the RE being an export-only chassis at that time).

[EyesWeldedShut]

Stranraer 1982. These were used on the London Victoria > Stranraer Ferry then passengers on foot > Larne. I used the service a few times as an alternative to the sleeper train (both took around 9 - 10 hours) but it wasn't a fun journey overnight on either.

[artdjones]

13 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

Yup NI tried a National early on and didn't like it. Odd as the general manager at the time (the legend that was Werner Heubeck) was quite the fan of the European, more technically advanced, bus designs. But, and it was a rather big one, NI needed something rugged, reliable and cheap to run and repair. Costly passenger comfort and convenience simply weren't on the table when you never were sure how many of your fleet would be coming back to the depot each night. You needed something that was simple, could be repaired cheaply and quickly, and was rugged enough to cope with any ham-fisted driver that was thrown at it and Heubeck knew that the RE (and Leopard) was just the right chassis for the job.

When Leyland told Heubeck that he couldn't have any more REs, he just got up and told the reps that he's got a flight to visit Mercedes that day and he'll be catching it then. Hurried phone calls later and NI was 're-classified' as an export country so that NI could still order REs like it wanted to (the RE being an export-only chassis at that time).

It's a shame NBC were so invested in the National. Of course they would be, it being a collaborative project with Leyland, but BL and NBC are a classic case of the dangers of making industries into huge monoliths. It's great as long as good decisions are always made, but when bad ones are made there's no alternative but to plough on with them.

[artdjones]

23 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

As long as you don't want boot capacity...

Yeah, I'm being facetious and I know that the RE did have a small boot behind the engine, along with small side lockers but that really wasn't a patch on something like a Leopard (as long as it's not a B51 bodied one that had a tendency to dump its boot and contents onto the road).

The RE was vaguely comparable to the Rover 75, in that having started out as a well-specified chassis but then was slowly de-contented over the years to become a bit of a shadow of what it could have become. If it wasn't for that pesky Leyland National <shakes tiny fist into the air>.

I sometimes wonder, if the National never got off the drawing board and the RE was developed along the lines of what Bristol wanted to do with it - it would have been utterly unbeatable in the service bus/semi-coach market. For coach work? I think there were better chassis out there (AEC Reliance 760 would take some beating, it pains me to say).

There's an RELH for sale ATM, apparently.

https://www.usedcoachsales.co.uk/Vehicles/View/5369

Edit:- It must have sold or been an old ad still in the search results, it doesn't seem to be in the vehicles for sale list any more.

[Inspector Morose]

36 minutes ago, artdjones said:

There's an RELH for sale ATM, apparently.

https://www.usedcoachsales.co.uk/Vehicles/View/5369

Edit:- It must have sold or been an old ad still in the search results, it doesn't seem to be in the vehicles for sale list any more.

Ex-Wheels Nuneaton, I think Catteralls of Southam was a recent owner if not the current one. That era of ECW body was utterly gorgeous to look at and had that indestructible luxury feel that you just don't get these days - those seats certainly help!
If it has now retired into preservation, it really needs to be painted out of that pseudo Midland Red livery and back into something it did carry in its long service life.

[Inspector Morose]

10 hours ago, artdjones said:

It's a shame NBC were so invested in the National. Of course they would be, it being a collaborative project with Leyland, but BL and NBC are a classic case of the dangers of making industries into huge monoliths. It's great as long as good decisions are always made, but when bad ones are made there's no alternative but to plough on with them.

Oh, it's not a shame at all. The National, love it or hate it, moved the game on in terms of construction, ergonomics, ease of repair, I could go on. Whether it was wise to develop the production facility to be capable of making so many (a figure only halfway reached at the peak of production). Export should have been better as it was right up there, compared to the competition but unfortunately, sales were often hamstrung by odd management decisions on how to price it. 'That' engine? well, the idea of a highly turbocharged, low-capacity engine is now standard across the industry; maybe Leyland was heading in the right direction but just not with a fully developed product (there are tales about the design of that engine I could bore the pants off even the most ardent of enthusiast).

National was a good bus but should have been part of a range, utilising the same construction techniques and technology to spread the costs a little. However, Leyland just sat back and said take it or leave it. For those who wanted something smaller and lighter, there was the agricultural Bristol LH and for coach work, the equally stone age (compared to the National) Leopard that had the advantage of being available with a separate body (for the home market, was that really an advantage by then?). Leyland did expand the National eventually to include rail and as a body for articulated buses but that really was it. They had developed some truly groundbreaking ideas with it then basically did nothing with the technology that they'd spent millions developing (apart from building the one bus it was originally developed for).

 

For all of its faults, the NBC was a good thing, especially after it had matured from its troubled conception into something that was a bit more localised than the rigid monolith that was originally envisioned. Sure it 'killed' a lot of well-known companies and painted their buses in a uniform colour instead of a multitude of shades but the passenger was still the focus, not profit. Compare and contrast to what privatisation and the forced split up of the NBC has done and we have now got monopolistic companies operating the majority of services with buses painted in all one colour but now the customer are their shareholders and passengers are only seen as a means to generate income. Flawed, it may have been but I'd rather have the NBC than today's utter shambles and it shows as a good example that the market might be the answer to some things but when it comes to others....just maybe it isn't.

[quicksilver]

What I'd love to know but have never found out is how Oxford managed to avoid the National completely. They were the only NBC company never to have any new, but did end up with a few second-hand after privatisation. Was someone high up very persuasive at convincing head office they really didn't have a use for any Nationals?

[artdjones]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

there are tales about the design of that engine I could bore the pants off even the most ardent of enthusiast).

Well, you could give us an outline. 

[Inspector Morose]

3 hours ago, quicksilver said:

What I'd love to know but have never found out is how Oxford managed to avoid the National completely. They were the only NBC company never to have any new, but did end up with a few second-hand after privatisation. Was someone high up very persuasive at convincing head office they really didn't have a use for any Nationals?

Oxford was a weird case but at the time concentrated on a majority double deck fleet (barring the odd few) arguing that capacity might as well be offered  at little extra cost in fuel. The single deck requirement could easily be covered by leopard semi-coaches and so no real need for proper service single deckers like the National. Simply put, they just didn't need them.

[Inspector Morose]

1 hour ago, artdjones said:

Well, you could give us an outline. 

Okay, basically the engine was a part of a range of two capacities but the accountants got involved and the cheapest version was cobbled out of what had already been tooled up for.  When I'm not on my phone, I'll recount the tale (as far as I can work out from asking those who were there at the time).

[cms206]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:14 PM, Inspector Morose said:

Yup NI tried a National early on and didn't like it. Odd as the general manager at the time (the legend that was Werner Heubeck) was quite the fan of the European, more technically advanced, bus designs. But, and it was a rather big one, NI needed something rugged, reliable and cheap to run and repair. Costly passenger comfort and convenience simply weren't on the table when you never were sure how many of your fleet would be coming back to the depot each night. You needed something that was simple, could be repaired cheaply and quickly, and was rugged enough to cope with any ham-fisted driver that was thrown at it and Heubeck knew that the RE (and Leopard) was just the right chassis for the job.

When Leyland told Heubeck that he couldn't have any more REs, he just got up and told the reps that he's got a flight to visit Mercedes that day and he'll be catching it then. Hurried phone calls later and NI was 're-classified' as an export country so that NI could still order REs like it wanted to (the RE being an export-only chassis at that time).

Ulsterbus didn't put their last REs in to service until 1986, by which time the Tiger had been in production for quite some time.

[Inspector Morose]

7 minutes ago, cms206 said:

Ulsterbus didn't put their last REs in to service until 1986, by which time the Tiger had been in production for quite some time.

Yeah, they stocked up before Bristol was shut down and the Re was finished. Last RE put into service was BXI2580 IIRC (or something like that)

 

[cms206]

... and another spell in London done, not without fuckery but we made it.

Additions to the book for this trip are 11346, 11349, 11351, 11355, 11365, 11374, 11375, 11377, 11378, 11380, 11388, 11390 and 11395 - of these, 11351 is the best so far, a real grunty performer.

 

Conferring with the previous trip I think this leaves 26 to go; 344, 348, 350, 352, 354, 356, 358-361, 363 364, 366, 369, 371, 376, 379, 380, 382-5, 391, 396, 398 and 399.

 

Home tomorrow for a week's holiday then back down a week tomorrow.

 

A selection of phone images from this trip...

[busmansholiday]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:42 AM, martc said:

This could go in several threads, but it's the coach that interests me - I remember these in the '70's, but what is it?

(the loco is the 'Western Prince', the location is Dawlish in the red hot year of 1976 and the van lasted until 12/11/1985).

Drove some of those back in my early days. Went when you eventually got them wound up but not a patch on a Plaxton bodied Reliance for coach work. 

As for the designation, Bristol didn't use anything silly, RE stood for Rear Engined, L for Long (ie 36 foot, also available in M (33') and S (30') versions) and H for High Floor (service buses used the L or Low floor chassis). The number and letter at the end told you the number of cylinders and the engine make (L for Leyland, G for Gardner).

Similar designations for other Bristol's, Little Horror, Very Rubbish etc.

[busmansholiday]

On 9/22/2023 at 6:50 PM, EyesWeldedShut said:

Stranraer 1982. These were used on the London Victoria > Stranraer Ferry then passengers on foot > Larne. I used the service a few times as an alternative to the sleeper train (both took around 9 - 10 hours) but it wasn't a fun journey overnight on either.

Those are the ones that were "fitted" with a stick you could wedge under the dash to hold the (heavy) throttle down when on the motorway IIRC.

[artdjones]

15 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Drove some of those back in my early days. Went when you eventually got them wound up but not a patch on a Plaxton bodied Reliance for coach work. 

As for the designation, Bristol didn't use anything silly, RE stood for Rear Engined, L for Long (ie 36 foot, also available in M (33') and S (30') versions) and H for High Floor (service buses used the L or Low floor chassis). The number and letter at the end told you the number of cylinders and the engine make (L for Leyland, G for Gardner).

Similar designations for other Bristol's, Little Horror, Very Rubbish etc.

In REMH the M stands for maximum (12m).

That Alexander bodied one above is an REMH.

[High Jetter]

Don Everall's yard, Wolverhampton – 1967

The company was one of the UK's largest dealers in second hand buses and coaches, and this was their main depot at Bilston Street.

Of particular interest are the two double-deck buses behind the trailer in the foreground. They are two of the 5 buses built to carry cyclists when the Dartford Tunnel opened in October 1963. They were built by Strachans on Ford Thames Trader lorry chassis and had racks for normal cycles on the lower deck, with space for tandems in the rear; seats for cyclists were provided on the upper deck. Originally 4 buses were needed to run a 6-minute headway service, but demand failed to live up to expectations and by April 1964 just one bus was being run. The bus service ceased in 1965, being replaced with Land Rovers with trailers. The buses were unsuitable for any other use, and must be some of the shortest lived vehicles in the history of British bus operations.

 

Picture and words courtesy of (the delightfully named) Alan Murray-Rust.

 

 

[SmokinWaffle]

16 hours ago, cms206 said:

 

 

Wow - that really doesn't look it's age. That's wild...

[ETCHY]

I was at Fishwick & Ribble running day in Leyland earlier.

Rode on a Leyland National mk2. When you compare the ride to a modern you realise how shit moderns are  & that at least comfort wise we've gone backwards.

I'd take the National in a crash too unlike modern flimsy buses.

[High Jetter]

22 minutes ago, SmokinWaffle said:

Wow - that really doesn't look it's age. That's wild...

Especially considering it's been to Pratt's Bottom and Badger's Mount

[martc]

Tim Scratcherds coach at Muker. He provided the first bus service between Keld and Richmond.

[DVee8]

[DVee8]