1971 MGB GT - Engine issue is testing me!!! - see page 22

[Peter C]

@SiC

Would you have any idea what’s going on?

[Mr Pastry]

Do both pistons move freely up and down the dashpots with the dampers removed?  If not, slacken the 3 screws at the base of the dashpot, wiggle it a bit and try again, as they do not always align perfectly if they have been apart.

[Peter C]

26 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Do both pistons move freely up and down the dashpots with the dampers removed?  If not, slacken the 3 screws at the base of the dashpot, wiggle it a bit and try again, as they do not always align perfectly if they have been apart.

Both pistons do move freely with the dampers removed.

A chap on a Facebook MG group just said the same about loosening the dashpot screws. 👍

[Peter C]

I had another go at sorting the carburettors today.

I started by removing both dashpots and pistons.

I gave everything a good clean.

I checked both needles and dampers for straightness, all looked good.

With both carburettors reinstated and re-filled with engine oil (as recommended by people on the internet), the piston in the rear carburettor still needed significantly more effort to lift compared with the front carburettor.

I drained the oil from both carburettors and filled both with 3-in-1 oil (as recommended by other people on the internet). With everything reinstated again, both dampers provided almost zero resistance. 

I decided to mix some engine oil with 3-in-1 oil.

 

I poured the correct quantities of my concoction into both carburettors, checked the movement of the pistons and they seemed fine, both needing about the same amount of effort to lift.

I fired up the engine. It idled beautifully but wouldn't rev.

On the basis that I could do no more with the carburettors, I had another look at the ignition system.

When I bought a job lot of parts from Moss Europe a couple of months ago, amongst other bits I bought a spare condenser and points, which I've kept in the little toolkit in the boot, for emergencies. 

I decided to replace the condenser and points with the spares. Unfortunately, the spare parts were also made by Intermotor. 

Replacing the condenser and points is fiddly but I got them done in about 20 minutes.

I fired up the engine and not only did it idle properly, it also revved without any stuttering.

Now, either the previously fitted condenser and points were defective (as suggested by some good folk here) or I did something wrong when I fitted them last week. Considering that they can only be fitted one way and I've set the points gap to 0.38mm, the same as before, I can't see how I could have done anything wrong.

Who cares, problem solved.

More soon.

 

 

[Mally]

Put old points and condenser in bin.

Buy spares  from Distributer Doctor as recommended by @SiC

Store them somewhere dry in the car,

Tend to run forever* once it's right.

[SiC]

1 hour ago, Peter C said:

More soon

More soon... when the next new intermotor condenser fails? 🫣

[SiC]

I've only ever used 20w50 engine oil in dashpots and never had a problem. One day maybe I'll get some proper SU oil. 

I know others use 3in1 but I find it's a bit too thin and doesn't offer much resistance. Maybe that should offer snappier throttle response but then also will risk leaning out further.

If you change between the two, it is likely to need a tweak on the needles. I wouldn't fiddle with the mixture or balance them just yet. May well need it but it sounds like they're good enough to make it work for now and you don't want to add more variables into the mix by altering anymore things. 

[plasticvandan]

I think the proper stuff is sae 30,I did have a bottle for a while,different weights give different responsiveness.

I would avoid 3 in 1 though,mainly because it is or at least was organic and gums everything up,and is a bit thin for dashpots

[SiC]

10 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

I think the proper stuff is sae 30,I did have a bottle for a while,different weights give different responsiveness.

I would avoid 3 in 1 though,mainly because it is or at least was organic and gums everything up,and is a bit thin for dashpots

Looks like the stuff Burlen sell now is SAE20

https://sucarb.co.uk/dampers-caps-oil/damper-oil/damper-oil-sae-grade-20.html

Tbh 20W-50 is probably pretty close to that if the carb doesn't get too hot (i.e. near ambient and not engine temp).

[Matty]

37 minutes ago, SiC said:

only ever used 20w50 engine oil in dashpots and never had a problem. One day maybe I'll get some proper SU oil

I'd stick with 20/50s. The SU oil is thinner. I've been pissing about for a while now trying to cure a hesitation getting back on a closed throttle. The piston is snapping open a bit quick and leaning the mixture out momentarily.

I was already on the SU oil. 10/40s improved the job a bit. 20/50s better still. Next step is to pack the fucker with grease 🤣

[Matty]

43 minutes ago, SiC said:

More soon... when the next new intermotor condenser fails? 🫣

The DD condensors are head and shoulders as you say Si. And even they still fail just a lot less. I've always got a spare as they are only a few quid. Wouldn't bother with anything else for all them reasons.

[Matty]

While I'm block posting. @Peter C. Whilst it appears that your issue was ignition related, if you're still concerned about your pistons. Take the dashpots off, clean them, lightly oil the inside of the bell. Plug the transfer holes up in the pistons with blue tac. If you then hold the dashpot upside down there is a timescale for how long it should take for the piston to drop out into your hand (i can't remember but goggling su piston drop test will tell you). Its a range of between x and y seconds. It might just set your mind at rest that there's no issue. (Obvs don't leave the needles in whilst doing it).

[Peter C]

24 minutes ago, Matty said:

While I'm block posting. @Peter C. Whilst it appears that your issue was ignition related, if you're still concerned about your pistons. Take the dashpots off, clean them, lightly oil the inside of the bell. Plug the transfer holes up in the pistons with blue tac. If you then hold the dashpot upside down there is a timescale for how long it should take for the piston to drop out into your hand (i can't remember but goggling su piston drop test will tell you). Its a range of between x and y seconds. It might just set your mind at rest that there's no issue. (Obvs don't leave the needles in whilst doing it).

Good advice, thank you but I've already done research on the SU drop test and I'm now fairly sure that my carbs are functioning ok. 

[SiC]

Buy a cheap SU HS carb, even if knackered, take it apart and see how it works. Likewise the distributor. Then work out how to put them back together.

They're all mechanically visually obvious once you've got the bits in your hands and a whole lot less intimidating to work on your own car once you know how they go together. 

[SiC]

Something like this if it goes for less than like a twenty quid or so.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335775566446

Cheaper than a book and a lot more productive to learn when doing it hands on. 

[Zelandeth]

The alternative approach to condenser issues is to site a high quality polypropylene film capacitor external to the distributor.  I did this as I was sick of the utter tripe that's being turned out these days.

Lives in the little black box underneath the voltage regulator in my case.

[Mally]

1 hour ago, Matty said:

 

I was already on the SU oil. 10/40s improved the job a bit. 20/50s better still. Next step is to pack the fucker with grease 🤣

Only works on lever arm shocks.

[Peter C]

8 minutes ago, SiC said:

Something like this if it goes for less than like a twenty quid or so.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/335775566446

Cheaper than a book and a lot more productive to learn when doing it hands on. 

Good idea.

I will look out for bargain MGB bits when I go to Beaulieu in May.

[Matty]

49 minutes ago, Mally said:

Only works on lever arm shocks.

Till they rip out the bulkhead 🤣

[Matty]

58 minutes ago, SiC said:

Buy a cheap SU HS carb, even if knackered, take it apart and see how it works. Likewise the distributor. Then work out how to put them back together.

They're all mechanically visually obvious once you've got the bits in your hands and a whole lot less intimidating to work on your own car once you know how they go together. 

Having refurbed a couple of sidedraught webers , I'd take a hs series SU anyday. No wonder they work better. Beautifully simple idea that's just effective!

[plasticvandan]

Some su have a lifting pin that you can push in to indicate the state of mixture,from memory of you lift the slide using the pin and it dies it's too weak,if it races it's too rich,and if it rises slightly then returns to idle it's about right. I always found they need to be richer than "book spec" I would do the usual fastest even idle then richen it up a flat or two,then adjust idle to suit.gets rid of any hesitation on acceleration.

[SiC]

If you do use that lifting pin, it only needs a light press to bring up the piston slightly. It does allow the piston to move up pretty far and pushing it all the way will almost certainly cause stumbling from the piston open too far, not because it's weak. The usual recommendation with the air filters off is turning slightly a flat headed screwdriver. 

Watch John Twist on University Motors channel on SU carb tuning. He specialises in MGs and especially the B. 

[Westbay]

14 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

The alternative approach to condenser issues is to site a high quality polypropylene film capacitor external to the distributor.  I did this as I was sick of the utter tripe that's being turned out these days.

Lives in the little black box underneath the voltage regulator in my case.

 

Very neat ! any chance you can pass on 'How to' part numbers etc ?

[Zelandeth]

12 hours ago, Westbay said:

Very neat ! any chance you can pass on 'How to' part numbers etc ?

Assuming the MGB one is around 0.22uF in value, one of these guys should do the trick.  They're something that I generally have in stock as they're the go-to for replacing waxed paper capacitors in valve era electronics.  ...Which is exactly the same type of capacitor we're replacing here in an automotive setting it turns out.  Two of a smaller value were used in my case just because that's what I had in stock.

Basically it just sits electrically in circuit exactly where the original one does (between the hot side of the points and chassis ground) - though they will corrode away to noting in no time if left exposed to the elements, so need to be tucked away in a suitable enclosure to keep them dry.  In my case the wire terminal marked "points" is running off to where the original condenser attached to the points, and the far left terminal is connected to ground (via the bolt attaching the box to the chassis rail as I recall).  I made things a little more complicated there as I also used the same box to give me a remote engine start button - that's complication you don't need to worry about and isn't anything to do with the ignition system - I just figured the box could pull double duty.  Equally if I wasn't also situating an engine start button I could have used an enclosure smaller than a matchbox, which if painted black or silver could easily be made to disappear in any engine bay.

If there's interest in it I could put together a "proper" how to on the subject - but it's basically just a like-for-like replacement.  The only complication is that these caps need a bit of basic protection from the elements.  Depending which distributor you have it's not beyond the realms of possibility that you could even mount it inside the distributor housing itself if you've got room.

Quite happy to pick a few up for folks (I've already got a bit of a shopping list on RS as it is - I tend to buy things in batches as their P&P charges are punitive on small orders) and pass them on at cost if that would be helpful, so long as we can confirm what ratings we need.  My notes say it was 0.22uF that I was working with, though no idea if that would be the case for the MGB as well - I honestly have no idea how much it varies from car to car.

[LightBulbFun]

37 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Quite happy to pick a few up for folks (I've already got a bit of a shopping list on RS as it is - I tend to buy things in batches as their P&P charges are punitive on small orders) and pass them on at cost if that would be helpful, so long as we can confirm what ratings we need.  My notes say it was 0.22uF that I was working with, though no idea if that would be the case for the MGB as well - I honestly have no idea how much it varies from car to car.

yes please put me down for for a couple  (been planning to do this mod myself, but run into the same probably with regards to shipping costs etc) from what I have researched 0.22uf seems to be a common value I have seen people suggest when doing this sort of upgrade, and in-fact a while ago I took the liberty of measuring REV's own existing original condenser and it measured out to 0.22uf according to my multimeter, so cant argue with that!

(I also would not mind a proper how to guide, I mean I am pretty sure I myself know what to do, but theres a few people I know who I would like to let know about this tweak, so having a simple guide I can link to would be most handy)

[Westbay]

11 hours ago, Zelandeth said:

Assuming the MGB one is around 0.22uF in value, one of these guys should do the trick.  They're something that I generally have in stock as they're the go-to for replacing waxed paper capacitors in valve era electronics.  ...Which is exactly the same type of capacitor we're replacing here in an automotive setting it turns out.  Two of a smaller value were used in my case just because that's what I had in stock.

Basically it just sits electrically in circuit exactly where the original one does (between the hot side of the points and chassis ground) - though they will corrode away to noting in no time if left exposed to the elements, so need to be tucked away in a suitable enclosure to keep them dry.  In my case the wire terminal marked "points" is running off to where the original condenser attached to the points, and the far left terminal is connected to ground (via the bolt attaching the box to the chassis rail as I recall).  I made things a little more complicated there as I also used the same box to give me a remote engine start button - that's complication you don't need to worry about and isn't anything to do with the ignition system - I just figured the box could pull double duty.  Equally if I wasn't also situating an engine start button I could have used an enclosure smaller than a matchbox, which if painted black or silver could easily be made to disappear in any engine bay.

If there's interest in it I could put together a "proper" how to on the subject - but it's basically just a like-for-like replacement.  The only complication is that these caps need a bit of basic protection from the elements.  Depending which distributor you have it's not beyond the realms of possibility that you could even mount it inside the distributor housing itself if you've got room.

Quite happy to pick a few up for folks (I've already got a bit of a shopping list on RS as it is - I tend to buy things in batches as their P&P charges are punitive on small orders) and pass them on at cost if that would be helpful, so long as we can confirm what ratings we need.  My notes say it was 0.22uF that I was working with, though no idea if that would be the case for the MGB as well - I honestly have no idea how much it varies from car to car.

Brilliant! Yes please put me on the list ...

[Peter C]

On 26/01/2025 at 15:58, SiC said:

More soon... when the next new intermotor condenser fails? 🫣

Seems that @SiC was right all along.

I couldn't test drive the MGB after I replaced the condenser and points last Sunday because it was getting dark and pissing down with rain. However, a bright blue sky was the perfect invitation for me to take the MGB out for a spin around the block this afternoon.

It started fine and once warmed up, the engine ran ok but the idle was not as smooth as it used to be. First destination was an MG dealer in Beaconsfield, simply because I wanted a photo of the MGB next to an MG dealer's shopfront logo.

Then I stopped outside Slade's showroom in Penn for another photo opportunity.

T

Then I started heading home and the engine started to splutter, exactly the same as it did before I replaced the ignition parts. At one point, when I accelerated a little harder, the engine backfired. Surely the problem must be ignition related?

I have a 25D distributor. 

I've looked at the Distributor Doctor's website and can't figure out which bits I need. I was about to send Martin an email but instead I decided to research into an electronic ignition conversion kit and found this:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/172722180353?_skw=MGB+25D+AccuSpark+Electronic+Ignition+Distributor&itmmeta=01JJW0M0F0N79H2JE1CX1568H7&hash=item28370b5101:g:gQAAAOSwY8BgEDpu&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAABEHoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKkhWr0X0XUlSoWta%2BBuNZshm3VU3Hf06tNFc%2BHTta%2FyR3pMldn5mMKX3kkUfwFIXGDiGsk0tZBZNCwSXeIdZePkPvKITx%2FqZ8%2Be30ajScEDw9DWw%2FrXOocIOlEagzUZ1aRnb7GFvY%2BKKFwiOH2vcYyv7YdWl2XckTKBowZloxPMm9rqqkb8c4YDwHPF2Dlu8f%2FVJd%2B9RP2T3JlnwC3LtFyNqW5EP7EhHTVV%2FxdT876fjipUetbHeT4nfJIDj%2FXU59PHb9UkR1eP%2B7iuxH%2FWFVuSR%2Bk47eLGcBKQA412j72t14jv%2FGIys8B6RQUS0udoSDzqVtiinJq8To9ixupY1FUM|tkp%3ABFBM3IfQgJdl

I think that this could be the best £115 that I can spend.

Do you guys agree?

 

 

[SiC]

7 minutes ago, Peter C said:

Do you guys agree?

No. Those after market Accuspark dizzys are shit too. Sorry.

Mine lasted ~800 miles before it started wearing so much internally that it ran shit. Final incident before I ripped it out was it backfired badly at a petrol station. 

123 ignition is really the best solution for a replacement all in one dizzy. Not cheap. Often see them go for sub £100 second hand though.

Accuspark electronic modules are okay generally. Some have issues but many don't. Only issue is that it's very likely going in a worn distributor. 

Honestly points and condenser is nothing wrong if you get a good condenser. My preference is the all-in-one points and a distributor doctor condenser. I usually got mine from Moss as I had a branch local to me in Bristol (now unfortunately closed). 

[SiC]

11 minutes ago, Peter C said:

Seems that @SiC was right all along.

This is all just from my hard learnt, frustrating experience of recommissioning a BGT that had sat for 15 years. The number of breakdowns from these various things is what nearly made me throw the towel in on mine early on. Instead I parked it up in a council rented garage out of sight and mind for a year after it broke down so many times. Then came back with vengeance determination that I was going to get it running properly and live my very long held desire of driving a BGT. 

It became very solidly reliable after I sorted most of these issues. All of which are my go to things to sort when I recommission any old British car now. Touch wood my proven formula of points, condenser, rotor arm, leads, rebuild SU carbs, brake master+slaves+flexis and fuel system refresh (rubber hose and clean tank + pump).

[Peter C]

2 minutes ago, SiC said:

Only issue is that it's very likely going in a worn distributor. 

This is my concern. I suspect that buying good quality parts and fitting them to a 54 year old distributor is not a good idea.

How much is a decent cap, rotor arm, points and condenser from the DD? About the same as the Accuspark kit?