Shite at the Vicarage: Renault 8 Painting in Progress

[The Vicar]

44 minutes ago, Wibble said:

Thank goodness for that! For a moment I thought you’d bought a ringer😬

Ringing is unfortunately quite common in Ireland so I was careful to do my homework and satisfy myself that this particular car is what it says on the tin..

I’ve been able to confirm that the engine number is original to this car, so again one step closer. Google says that the vin is stamped into the body of the car near the passenger side sill…I just need to go looking. 

Fingers crossed 

[mcmolloy1]

R1132 is the model number. Useful when looking up parts 

[The Vicar]

According to this I’ve just been looking in the wrong place 

The VIN isn’t either of those plates under the bonnet. I just pray that it hasn’t rusted away like this person mentions! 

[Wibble]

I thought @LightBulbFun could provide it to you now?

[The Vicar]

1 hour ago, Wibble said:

I thought @LightBulbFun could provide it to you now?

I have been talking to LBF privately, and he was very helpfully able to confirm the engine number for me (which coincided with what the motorcheck report gave me thankfully), but with regards to the VIN if I manage to find it on the shell he will hopefully be able to confirm if it coincides with what is on his record. 

So far no sign of the VIN anyway

[Wibble]

Sorry, I don’t understand why LBF can’t just give you the VIN he found and then the problem is solved?

[The Vicar]

Just now, Wibble said:

Sorry, I don’t understand why LBF can’t just give you the VIN he found and then the problem is solved?

I don’t want to speak for him, but he says he is not comfortable doing so. Initially I thought the VIN was on one of the plates under the bonnet and as neither of them correspond with what he has he preferred not to share it; and I understand and respect that. 

I now know where the VIN should be on my car, but over time it seems to have rusted/worn away like the commenter on fb mentioned. 

This isn’t my car but it’s what im looking for 

[Wibble]

Come on @LightBulbFun! Surely you can help out our resident priest? I’m pretty sure he’s not running a chop shop from Rome.

[EyesWeldedShut]

Old school we used to try chemical etching/lifting on the likes of the XR3i that were chop shopped. When the number is stamped in it affects the steel below the stamp.
Even if you grind it out there's often a 'shadow' in the underlying steel. We used a Nitric Acid gel - painted on, and on, and on until a visible 'etch' could be seen - worked about 50/50**

Googlefoo it - there seems to be less nasty methods around these days that the DIY expert can use.

** wee guys got wise to that so they'd just chop out the floor pan around the plastic VIN flap and weld in a complete replacement from another car.

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, Wibble said:

Come on @LightBulbFun! Surely you can help out our resident priest? I’m pretty sure he’s not running a chop shop from Rome.

hah, dont worry I have no doubts about @The Vicar's integrity , its more the previous history of the vehicle I am weary about, given that as this moment in time there is a discrepancy at play, I dont want risk to reunite a vehicle with the wrong ID which could easily cause issues down the line

if something happened in the past which resulted in this vehicle gaining the number plates of another vehicle, and then say that other vehicle from which the plate was from, was to crop back up, and that person was to then apply for the logbook, well you see the problem!

I dont want @The Vicar to get implicated in any of that mess, so I am purposefully being shy about it, until such time as I am satisfied all is good with the vehicle

 

[The Vicar]

Fair enough, but I really don’t think that is the case for this car. We even found a 1980 tax disc under the passenger seat this evening while looking for the number. 

It just seems to have rusted/worn away. Like I mentioned previously I now know that the two plates under the bonnet have nothing to do with the VIN, they designate the manufacture specs (according to this), R1 132 = 1100cc R8 major, 536 126 = normal roads, normal climate destination. They just happened to be the first VIN-looking thing I saw when I looked in the first place where I thought I might find the VIN, hence I put them on the forms when applying for the new logbook. 

[LightBulbFun]

5 minutes ago, The Vicar said:

Fair enough, but I really don’t think that is the case for this car. We even found a 1980 tax disc under the passenger seat this evening while looking for the number. 

It just seems to have rusted/worn away. Like I mentioned previously I now know that the two plates under the bonnet have nothing to do with the VIN, they designate the manufacture specs (according to this), R1 132 = 1100cc R8 major, 536 126 = normal roads, normal climate destination. They just happened to be the first VIN-looking thing I saw when I looked in the first place where I thought I might find the VIN, hence I put them on the forms when applying for the new logbook. 

sorry I had missed the bit where you said it had rusted away,  do you have any pictures of whats left on it? sometimes I find shining a bright light on such things at the right angle can make stuff legible  or can you see anything from the under-side? a reverse impression if that makes sense! (is there anything legible on the tax disk?)

[Wibble]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

sorry I had missed the bit where you said it had rusted away,  do you have any pictures of whats left on it? sometimes I find shining a bright light on such things at the right angle can make stuff legible  or can you see anything from the under-side? a reverse impression if that makes sense! (is there anything legible on the tax disk?)

My goodness this is disappointing. With the amount of help you’ve received from other members, your stance on this really surprises me.

I think we’ve established the engine number is correct, the original colour is correct

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

until such time as I am satisfied all is good with the vehicle

You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of official. I love your posts about your travels in your cars but it is sad that you couldn't  just help this man, without any come back on you. It’s not even a UK car.

[cms206]

10 minutes ago, Wibble said:

My goodness this is disappointing. With the amount of help you’ve received from other members, your stance on this really surprises me.

I think we’ve established the engine number is correct, the original colour is correct

You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of official. I love your posts about your travels in your cars but it is sad that you couldn't  just help this man, without any come back on you. It’s not even a UK car.

 

@The Vicar for some reason I've missed this thread, some astonishing stuff here. As @Split_Pin mentioned, the only Renault 8 I ever recall seeing is the one in the Glasgow Museums collection.

[LightBulbFun]

39 minutes ago, Wibble said:

My goodness this is disappointing. With the amount of help you’ve received from other members, your stance on this really surprises me.

I think we’ve established the engine number is correct, the original colour is correct

You seem to have appointed yourself as some sort of official. I love your posts about your travels in your cars but it is sad that you couldn't  just help this man, without any come back on you. It’s not even a UK car.

I am trying to help him, as you say, the probability is high, that everything is tickityboo, the secondary factors and otherwise general picture look good, I am just trying to do my due diligence first thats all.

 

I *have* had to clean up messes where identities of 2 vehicles get swapped and I have had to then untangle that mess

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/271/#comment-2588975

and know of many other cases where vehicle identities get mixed up and come back to bite someone in the arse, even completely innocent cases, where nothing nefarious was intended, for example I know of a case of a Milk float, where the chassis plate was mounted to the seat-box, and said seat box got swapped with another milk-float during routine maintenance, suddenly the numbers no longer matched up and the poor float ended up on a Q plate

trust me thats no fun, I dont want @The Vicar or anyone else down the line to become worse off because I was too blasé about something

as I mentioned I have had to deal & witnessed the aftermath where someone else was blasé about matters like this, its not fun

 

[Wibble]

20 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I am trying to help him, as you say, the probability is high, that everything is tickityboo, the secondary factors and otherwise general picture look good, I am just trying to do my due diligence first thats all.

 

I *have* had to clean up messes where identities of 2 vehicles get swapped and I have had to then untangle that mess

https://autoshite.com/topic/32723-lightbulbfuns-invacar-general-ramble-thread-index-on-page-1-survivors-lists-on-pages-24134-adgecutlers-invacar-mk12-restoration-from-page-186-onwards-still-harping-on/page/271/#comment-2588975

and know of many other cases where vehicle identities get mixed up and come back to bite someone in the arse, even completely innocent cases, where nothing nefarious was intended, for example I know of a case of a Milk float, where the chassis plate was mounted to the seat-box, and said seat box got swapped with another milk-float, suddenly the numbers no longer matched up and the poor float ended up on a Q plate

trust me thats no fun, I dont want @The Vicar or anyone else down the line to become worse off because I was too blasé about something

as I mentioned I have had to deal & witnessed the aftermath where someone else was blasé about matters like this, its not fun

 

You’re not helping though, are you? I also think you’re clutching at straws for any of your reasons for being so obstructive holding water, under these circumstances. 

[LightBulbFun]

16 minutes ago, Wibble said:

You’re not helping though, are you? I also think you’re clutching at straws for any of your reasons for being so obstructive holding water, under these circumstances. 

I verified the engine number matched at least? & I confirmed in the first case about the chassis number miss-match so the Vicker was then able to get information  on where he should be looking for the actual number

4 hours ago, The Vicar said:

I have been talking to LBF privately, and he was very helpfully able to confirm the engine number for me (which coincided with what the motorcheck report gave me thankfully), but with regards to the VIN if I manage to find it on the shell he will hopefully be able to confirm if it coincides with what is on his record. 

So far no sign of the VIN anyway

I am just asking for some pictures of the would be location of the chassis number stamping on the car, so I can see things for myself so to speak

[Wibble]

8 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I am just asking for some pictures of the would be location of the chassis number stamping on the car, so I can see things for myself so to speak

Why? He’s already said it has rusted away, there’s nothing to see. You’ve already proved the engine numbers match, which is brilliant, we know the original colour matches, it’s not a UK car , so just give him the VIN!

I’m going to leave it here. I remain disappointed with your stance but have to call it a night. I’ve managed to avoid using swear words so far, with respect to @The Vicar but I’d better end now before I do.

[Westbay]

Can I offer a 'left field' suggestion ? try contacting Renault Heritage with your / 'our' problem, they may have other ways of finding/verifying the history/ build sheet ....   🤔

[EyesWeldedShut]

9 hours ago, cms206 said:

the only Renault 8 I ever recall seeing is the one in the Glasgow Museums collection.

You should have been in Ayr around 1976/78 (ish) - I had an Uncle demob from the RAF - he'd been in Malta when Don Mintoff kicked the Brits out and he brought back a RHD Renault 8 in the blue colour that this one is. Having driven it around Lossiemouth for a few years it was a tad crusty when he rocked up back with us. IIRC it crumbled to nothing around 1980.
I don't think I'd seen another one prior to that and I don't think I've seen one in the intervening years either.

OK - back to the thread - another left field (Protestant) suggestion - can you get it re-registered on a UK/NI V5 without incurring any sort of silly cross-border VAT/Duty costs? Then re-transfer it back to Irish registry? I'm assuming it's need to 'appear' to be in Ballymena or someplace like that first?
 

[Westbay]

Another thought 😇 as this is a french build albeit a RHD, would the VIN  be on the (now) passenger side ?

[Westbay]

14 minutes ago, Westbay said:

Another thought 😇 as this is a french build albeit a RHD, would the VIN  be on the (now) passenger side ?

sorry missed this "Google says that the vin is stamped into the body of the car near the passenger side sill…I just need to go looking. "

[The Vicar]

Good morning gents,

So to bring this saga to a premature end: I got the VIN. My brother, who is a trader, was able to confirm it this morning. Given that my paid history check didn’t yield anything last night I was sure that it would be the same with his database, but thankfully not. 

Will still have to resolve the issue of the missing VIN but that’s easily resolved so I’m not worried. I’m happy with the provenance of the car. It’s technically only had 1 owner from new too and was last taxed in 1993, which is surprising. I’d say 22 years was good innings for one of these. 

Onwards!

[LightBulbFun]

9 hours ago, Wibble said:

Why? He’s already said it has rusted away, there’s nothing to see. You’ve already proved the engine numbers match, which is brilliant, we know the original colour matches, it’s not a UK car , so just give him the VIN!

I’m going to leave it here. I remain disappointed with your stance but have to call it a night. I’ve managed to avoid using swear words so far, with respect to @The Vicar but I’d better end now before I do.

I am confused and saddened why you have suddenly gotten so sour with me and wish to swear at me, all I was asking for was some pictures so I could observe the situation for myself and rest in good faith that I have looked at all available evidence and seen that theres no previous fowl play, at work before handing over sensitive details

for all that I have done for everyone else on here with regards to similar vehicle admin like this, I am legitimately confused as to why trying to do the right thing properly is considered non-helpful and bad thing? 

[Wibble]

32 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

I am confused and saddened why you have suddenly gotten so sour with me and wish to swear at me, all I was asking for was some pictures so I could observe the situation for myself and rest in good faith that I have looked at all available evidence and seen that theres no previous fowl play, at work before handing over sensitive details

for all that I have done for everyone else on here with regards to similar vehicle admin like this, I am legitimately confused as to why trying to do the right thing properly is considered non-helpful and bad thing? 

I haven’t gone sour on you Dez. My desire to swear was from exasperation, not to swear at you. You had enough information to provide the VIN but chose not to. Fortunately this has now been resolved without you and he can proceed to get the car registered.

[Datsuncog]

14 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

I know of many other cases where vehicle identities get mixed up and come back to bite someone in the arse, even completely innocent cases, where nothing nefarious was intended, for example I know of a case of a Milk float, where the chassis plate was mounted to the seat-box, and said seat box got swapped with another milk-float during routine maintenance, suddenly the numbers no longer matched up and the poor float ended up on a Q plate

 

20 hours ago, The Vicar said:

Ringing is unfortunately quite common in Ireland so I was careful to do my homework and satisfy myself that this particular car is what it says on the tin..

Indeed. It seems there's a small but significant number of 'original' Irish registered cars circulating in the local classic scene which are in fact a combination of a sound UK car that's been brought over and a pile of scrap found on a farm in Leitrim or somewhere.

We've all seen the dodgy eBay ads for registration documents/salvaged VIN plates being sold as 'memorabilia' (especially for Land Rovers, Minis and any old Ford), and Irish classic cars wearing an original local number plate are understandably more desirable than one wearing a ZV-prefix classic import plate.

While I agree it's very unlikely that there's anything underhand going on in this particular case, and due diligence has been exercised at the point of purchase, I can fully understand LBF's reluctance to provide vehicle information which can't (yet) be verified - because it will be extremely difficult to rectify once ID numbers are entered on the NVDF database should it turn out there is a problem down the line, however it may have occurred. While maybe not relevant in this case if the registration is showing as live, it wouldn't be the first time an incorrect VIN has been inputted by a DoT data entry clerk computerising handwritten records, and third party trade checkers aren't infallible either.

It was perhaps careless of Renault to stamp the VIN onto such an exposed steel panel where it can be corroded away, but then I suppose the vehicles weren't ever designed to last as long as this one has. I understand Renault can be quite helpful with records for older/ heritage models - they were able to assist a colleague of mine in a spat with DVLA over his Clio 172 Cup, which had only ever been used as a track car and not previously road-registered. If they can help, an official letter from the manufacturer should settle the VIN matter permanently. Once confirmed, it might be helpful to get an aluminium plate stamped up and secured to the bodyshell to avoid any future doubt?

We're all rooting for The Vicar and will be overjoyed to see this rarity running again under his stewardship, but no-one's acting as a self-appointed gatekeeper here blocking progress just for fun. Bureaucracy and paperwork issues are a frustrating part of resurrecting old cars, and it's better if it can be done as carefully as possible using whatever physical evidence can be uncovered, rather than potentially putting the project in limbo, indefinitely. 

[Dick Cheeseburger]

5 hours ago, The Vicar said:

Good morning gents,

So to bring this saga to a premature end: I got the VIN. My brother, who is a trader, was able to confirm it this morning. Given that my paid history check didn’t yield anything last night I was sure that it would be the same with his database, but thankfully not. 

Will still have to resolve the issue of the missing VIN but that’s easily resolved so I’m not worried. I’m happy with the provenance of the car. It’s technically only had 1 owner from new too and was last taxed in 1993, which is surprising. I’d say 22 years was good innings for one of these. 

Onwards!

This is most excellent news. 

[mk2_craig]

7 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

it wouldn't be the first time an incorrect VIN has been inputted by a DoT data entry clerk computerising handwritten records

Is there anywhere that the original records are archived and able to be viewed in person? I suppose these days there might be some data protection obstacles but surely if you could demonstrate good reason to inspect old documents there shouldn't be any objection to letting the current owner of the vehicle have sight of them.

[Wibble]

8 hours ago, Datsuncog said:

no-one's acting as a self-appointed gatekeeper here

Aren’t they? I wanted to let this lie, because it’s been resolved and I love your posts, but can’t ignore this, as it’s clearly directed at me.

How would you approach Renault for help, if you can’t provide a VIN number?

 

[Datsuncog]

9 hours ago, Wibble said:

Aren’t they? I wanted to let this lie, because it’s been resolved and I love your posts, but can’t ignore this, as it’s clearly directed at me.

How would you approach Renault for help, if you can’t provide a VIN number?

https://www.renault.ie/contact/contact.html

Here's how I would do it: explain the situation. Provide the engine number and the other identification codes found (model type, colour code). Ask if they still have build records avaliable to verify the VIN. Hint at positive PR opportunities.

As I said, in my experience Renault's team are surprisingly helpful and seem to go harder on their heritage than some other manufacturers. I don't think there are many original Irish-assembled Renaults left, and this is the kind of thing that their corporate publications might like to run a profile on, as bit of a puff-piece. 

I'm really not trying to pick a fight with anyone - not least yourself, who I've never thought of as anything other than a complete gentleman.

LBF stated his reluctance to provide vehicle information which he can't 100% stand over, and gave examples of situations he's personally dealt with where using proxy data has caused serious problems with vehicle ID down the line. He didn't refuse to help, he verified the engine number and asked for photos of the rusted VIN area. 

I believe he has done a lot for many forum members to help resolve DVLA issues and provide detailed information on registration intricacies. He's helped plenty of people, and he's been helped with his own cars - as have I, and as have you. We all know that's how this place works. 

I don't want to derail the thread any further, so I'll bow out here and wish everyone a good morning and all the best with the ongoing project.