1973 Vauxhall Viva… untouched since ‘93 - worth it?

[warren t claim]

Just now, eddyramrod said:

Escort, totally, although it was a touch bigger.  Not as big as the Cortina; not even as big as the Avenger.

I was referring to all versions using that shell including the Magnum.

[eddyramrod]

Just now, warren t claim said:

I was referring to all versions using that shell including the Magnum.

Yes, so was I.  In fact it wouldn't be a stretch to believe the Escort 1300E (and later, 1600 Ghia) was Ford's reaction to the Magnum.

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, eddyramrod said:

Yes, so was I.  In fact it wouldn't be a stretch to believe the Escort 1300E (and later, 1600 Ghia) was Ford's reaction to the Magnum.

OK, so using Ramrod logic, what was the FE Victor pitched against in the Ford range?

[Matty]

Just now, warren t claim said:

OK, so using Ramrod logic, what was the FE Victor pitched against in the Ford range?

Cortina? 

[DodgeRover]

Have we got a price yet? Or even a picture?

[warren t claim]

37 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

Still a strange choice to use the coupe shell though?

I suppose there's a strange logic to the base HC Coupe as a rival to the Base Marina Coupe?

[warren t claim]

3 minutes ago, Matty said:

Cortina? 

FE Victor engine range, 1800 to 3300. Mk3 Cortina engine range 1300 to 2000.

[High Jetter]

28 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

OK, so using Ramrod logic, what was the FE Victor pitched against in the Ford range?

Grandad, shirley?

[wuvvum]

Wasn't the 3.3 a Ventora rather than a Victor?  That was more a Granada rival.  Kind of like the Senator being basically a bigger-engined Carlton but effectively a class above.

HB Viva was definitely a Mk1 Escort rival, and the HC was basically the same car underneath with a slightly bigger body.  Smallest engine on the HC was 1.1, which is smaller than the Cortina ever got.

[warren t claim]

Just now, High Jetter said:

Grandad, shirley?

So Vauxhall had no Cortina rival until the Mk1 Cavalier?

[Matty]

Just now, warren t claim said:

FE Victor engine range, 1800 to 3300. Mk3 Cortina engine range 1300 to 2000.

Gets confusing though cos the mk1 cavalier was the replacement for the victor. Which was the cortina rival. Maybe GM just wasn't very good at coherent model lineups?

[warren t claim]

Just now, wuvvum said:

Wasn't the 3.3 a Ventora rather than a Victor?  That was more a Granada rival.  Kind of like the Senator being basically a bigger-engined Carlton but effectively a class above.

Still the same FE shell. At least the Carlton/Senator used a different shell albeit slightly.

[Matty]

Just now, warren t claim said:

So Vauxhall had no Cortina rival until the Mk1 Cavalier?

 

Just now, Matty said:

Gets confusing though cos the mk1 cavalier was the replacement for the victor. Which was the cortina rival. Maybe GM just wasn't very good at coherent model lineups?

I was too slow 😆

[eddyramrod]

1 minute ago, warren t claim said:

OK, so using Ramrod logic, what was the FE Victor pitched against in the Ford range?

The Victor was the Cortina competitor; although really I should have said that the other way round, because we had Victors from 1957 and Cortinas weren't available until 1962.  With the FD and FE the Victor outgrew the Cortina (and Hillman Hunter) and began treading on the toes of the new, downsized, Consul/Granada, previously the preserve of the Cresta.  (Don't forget the mk4 Zephyr was significantly bigger than the Granada!)  Vauxhall then dumped the Cresta and relied on the Victor-bodied, upscale, six-cylinder Ventora to fight the Granada market.  FD, incidentally, was the first Victor to offer optional engine sizes, something the Cortina had offered from the start..

Rootes had dropped out of the big-car game having discontinued the (elderly) big Humbers and failed to adapt RHD Valiants (a suitably-sized modern offering from new parent Chrysler) to replace them.  BMC/BL had also given up, making little effort to promote the Austin Three Litre, an unworthy replacement for the old Westminster/6-110; Maxi and Marina were supposed to fight the Cortina despite falling slightly short on size.  Triumph had the 2000/2500 to fight the Granada, but against the Cortina they only had the Dolomite, an old design that was too small, but too big against the Escort.  Which, curiously, brought it right into HC/Avenger territory.  Rover had the ancient P5 and more modern P6; P5 was pitched slightly above the likes of the Granada, P6 below, but not far enough below to meet the Cortina.  This brought it up against the FD/FE sizewise, which it outfought on quality.  And then came the Wedge Princess, again directly up against the FE.

Vauxhall's response was the mk1 Cavalier, an Opel Ascona with a new nose, much closer to the Cortina in size.

1 minute ago, Matty said:

 

I was too slow 😆

Me too, I feel like I've been typing this for hours!

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, Matty said:

Gets confusing though cos the mk1 cavalier was the replacement for the victor. Which was the cortina rival. Maybe GM just wasn't very good at coherent model lineups?

 

1 minute ago, Matty said:

Gets confusing though cos the mk1 cavalier was the replacement for the victor. Which was the cortina rival. Maybe GM just wasn't very good at coherent model lineups?

So the Victor/Ventora/VX1800/VX2300/VX2300GLS were replaced with two different cars, the Mk1 Cav and Carlton?

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, eddyramrod said:

The Victor was the Cortina competitor; although really I should have said that the other way round, because we had Victors from 1957 and Cortinas weren't available until 1962.  With the FD and FE the Victor outgrew the Cortina (and Hillman Hunter) and began treading on the toes of the new, downsized, Consul/Granada, previously the preserve of the Cresta.  (Don't forget the mk4 Zephyr was significantly bigger than the Granada!)  Vauxhall then dumped the Cresta and relied on the Victor-bodied, upscale, six-cylinder Ventora to fight the Granada market.  FD, incidentally, was the first Victor to offer optional engine sizes, something the Cortina had offered from the start..

Rootes had dropped out of the big-car game having discontinued the (elderly) big Humbers and failed to adapt RHD Valiants (a suitably-sized modern offering from new parent Chrysler) to replace them.  BMC/BL had also given up, making little effort to promote the Austin Three Litre, an unworthy replacement for the old Westminster/6-110; Maxi and Marina were supposed to fight the Cortina despite falling slightly short on size.  Triumph had the 2000/2500 to fight the Granada, but against the Cortina they only had the Dolomite, an old design that was too small, but too big against the Escort.  Which, curiously, brought it right into HC/Avenger territory.  Rover had the ancient P5 and more modern P6; P5 was pitched slightly above the likes of the Granada, P6 below, but not far enough below to meet the Cortina.  This brought it up against the FD/FE sizewise, which it outfought on quality.  And then came the Wedge Princess, again directly up against the FE.

Vauxhall's response was the mk1 Cavalier, an Opel Ascona with a new nose, much closer to the Cortina in size.

Me too, I feel like I've been typing this for hours!

AS comprehensive answer of the year award nominee right here.

Although BL knew that the Mk3 Cortina was going to be a bigger car than the Mk2 the still sized the Marina closer to Mk2 Cortina dimensions as did Roots with the Avenger.

How does the HC compare in dimensions to the Mk2 Cortina?

[eddyramrod]

HC is about 13ft6; mk2 Cortina is 14ft dead, mk3 is 13ft11.  Mk4, like the Victor, grew in the direction of the 15ft Granada.  Mk1 and 2 Escorts are 13ft dead.

HA was marginally bigger than the 12ft9 Anglia and Herald.

[warren t claim]

3 minutes ago, eddyramrod said:

HC is about 13ft6; mk2 Cortina is 14ft dead, mk3 is 13ft11.  Mk4, like the Victor, grew in the direction of the 15ft Granada.  Mk1 and 2 Escorts are 13ft dead.

HA was marginally bigger than the 12ft9 Anglia and Herald.

So the Mk3 Cortina is shorter than the Mk2????

[wuvvum]

I always thought the Avenger was more an Escort rival than Cortina.  The biggest engine the Avenger ever got was a 1.6.

[eddyramrod]

Yeah, that surprised me too, especially as the extended range of engines indicated an intention to move upmarket.  I can only assume Ford were preparing to distance the Cortina from the Granada, due within two years and smaller than the Zephyr.

[warren t claim]

Just now, eddyramrod said:

Yeah, that surprised me too, especially as the extended range of engines indicated an intention to move upmarket.  I can only assume Ford were preparing to distance the Cortina from the Granada, due within two years and smaller than the Zephyr.

And also replace the Corsair, although maybe they badged entry level Mk1 Granadas as Consuls to do that?

[High Jetter]

1 minute ago, wuvvum said:

I always thought the Avenger was more an Escort rival than Cortina.  The biggest engine the Avenger ever got was a 1.6.

Avenger seemed bigger than Escort at the time. Very flexible panels tho. I think the Tiger was bigger than 1.6?

[eddyramrod]

3 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

And also replace the Corsair, although maybe they badged entry level Mk1 Granadas as Consuls to do that?

Precisely.  Although note: the Corsair was built on the mk1 Cortina platform, as a bigger brother for those who couldn't quite find space for a Zephyr.

 

1 minute ago, High Jetter said:

Avenger seemed bigger than Escort at the time. Very flexible panels tho. I think the Tiger was bigger than 1.6?

Yes, it was bigger; HC size in fact.  Tiger was still only a 1600, but higher-tuned than the cooking models.

[warren t claim]

4 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Avenger seemed bigger than Escort at the time. Very flexible panels tho. I think the Tiger was bigger than 1.6?

I've never seen a Mk1/2 Escort used as a taxi but I've seen a few  HCs and Avengers used as private hire cars.

[junkyarddog]

8 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

The biggest engine the Avenger ever got was a 1.6.

The Viva had an odd range of engines,from the early 1200,up to 2300!!

The Chevrolet Can-Am Firenza had a 5ltr 302ci lump from the factory!

[High Jetter]

3 minutes ago, eddyramrod said:

Precisely.  Although note: the Corsair was built on the mk1 Cortina platform, as a bigger brother for those who couldn't quite find space for a Zephyr.

 

Yes, it was bigger; HC size in fact.  Tiger was still only a 1600, but higher-tuned than the cooking models.

Uh, some sources say it was the 1500GT engine. Rootes 1.5 & 1.8 vs Ford 1.6 & 2.0? Maybe a tax reason, on purchase?

[warren t claim]

1 minute ago, High Jetter said:

Uh, some sources say it was the 1500GT engine. Rootes 1.5 & 1.8 vs Ford 1.6 & 2.0? Maybe a tax reason, on purchase?

May I throw the Holbay powered Hunter GLS into the pot as well?

[warren t claim]

Come to think of it, the Hunter wasn't offered as a two door unlike the Viva, Avenger, Marina and Cortina. No 1100/1300 engine option either.

[eddyramrod]

6 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

May I throw the Holbay powered Hunter GLS into the pot as well?

 

2 minutes ago, warren t claim said:

Come to think of it, the Hunter wasn't offered as a two door unlike the Viva, Avenger, Marina and Cortina. No 1100/1300 engine option either.

The Holbay was the Rootes answer to the Cortina 1600E, built on the canted 1725 engine that was introduced for the Arrow range.  And although not a saloon variant, there was a two-door: the Sunbeam Alpine/Rapier.  The engine range was limited to 1500 or 1725, neither of which bore any relation to the 1.3/1.5/1.6 in the Avengers.

[warren t claim]

Just now, eddyramrod said:

 

The Holbay was the Rootes answer to the Cortina 1600E, built on the canted 1725 engine that was introduced for the Arrow range.  And although not a saloon variant, there was a two-door: the Sunbeam Alpine/Rapier.  The engine range was limited to 1500 or 1725, neither of which bore any relation to the 1.3/1.5/1.6 in the Avengers.

The Alpine/Rapier predated the Capri and had American styling.