1963 Mercedes Benz 190DC Fintail. Bad fuel tank and leaks.

[Dyslexic Viking]

11 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Looks like satisfying work

It is. I'm just afraid I'll find some serious hidden rust somewhere.

[DeanH]

Glad you've got it running again, keep up the good work!

[Dyslexic Viking]

An ad appeared not far from me with used parts for Mercedes W110 and this does not happen often. So after a trip to the seller today, I got hold of a few small things, but most importantly I bought a good steering column. The reason I bought it is that the transmission linkage is in it and on mine this is very worn.

The gear linkage parts 

I also got this cheap so this was a good find. And the steering column will probably be replaced in the future now just hope it fits.

[Dyslexic Viking]

Fortunately, I have had the opportunity to prioritize work on this now so I have had 4 full days of work done. Today it was 9 hours and I am tired.

I have done bodywork and most work on the front wings and the bodywork behind them. I had to weld 2 points but I haven't got the 0.6 thread yet so I used what I had. And it's been a few years since I welded on a car and this was a reminder of how bad I am at this and I'll probably never be good at welding. But I got the rust cut away and got the hole sealed without any horrible bodgeds and that's the most important thing.

Also had a lot of gravel scraped off and all places with rust were treated and then painted and then all the areas that get a lot of wear were covered in a wax product that I have used for a long time and have good experience with for extra protection. And this was the result after all that.

And today I had the front wings put back on and it was started and driven out of the garage and parked under a roof outside. Because tomorrow starts the next big job wich is to take out the interior and inspect the floor. It also turns out that the glow plugs are still not working.

[Low Horatio gearbox]

Superb progress  on this, so much so I've looked at 2 London adverts in the last 12 hours.

Don't diss your welding.

[jonathan_dyane]

Lots of progress being made! How can you tell the glow plugs aren't working? Doesn't the light illuminate?

[Dyslexic Viking]

26 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

Lots of progress being made! How can you tell the glow plugs aren't working? Doesn't the light illuminate?

The light does not work and the engine takes a long time with a lot of cranking to start. Was too busy the first time the engine was restarted to notice if the light was working. Not sure what could be causing this. There are only 2 wires to the glow plugs and I think I put everything together correctly.

[jonathan_dyane]

Is the earth wire in place and in good condition? The glow plugs should have the feed entering one glow plug then an earth wire at the end, they don't earth through the block.

[Dyslexic Viking]

Yes that is how they are wired up and I cleaned all the contact points and looked over everything and it looked good. But will investigate more today and will come back with what I find out and possible some pictures.

[Nullzwei]

2 hours ago, Dyslexic Viking said:

The light does not work and the engine takes a long time with a lot of cranking to start. Was too busy the first time the engine was restarted to notice if the light was working. Not sure what could be causing this. There are only 2 wires to the glow plugs and I think I put everything together correctly.

Might be worth checking what is in the fuel tank seeing as these old OM engines will run on any grease based substance. May explain the need to crank a bit more than expected. 

[juular]

27 minutes ago, Nullzwei said:

Might be worth checking what is in the fuel tank seeing as these old OM engines will run on any grease based substance. May explain the need to crank a bit more than expected. 

Fair point, and maybe worth trying to bypass the fuel system altogether and run it from a can of diesel.

 

[Dyslexic Viking]

6 hours ago, Nullzwei said:

Might be worth checking what is in the fuel tank seeing as these old OM engines will run on any grease based substance. May explain the need to crank a bit more than expected. 

This is a good idea but I drained the fuel tank when I replaced the hoses on it and then I also blew out the pipes so it has no old diesel in it. So I don't think that could be the reason. But thanks for the suggestion.

I didn't have time to look at the glow plugs today, spent the day on the interior instead and am starting to write about this now.

[Dyslexic Viking]

Worked today on the interior, the goal is to remove all the sound dampening mats to look for rust and remove all of the old mats and sound dampening mats as this has a bad smell inside which I don't like.

First, most of the interior came out.

And under this shelf below, which is between the front seats, I found a Norwegian 25 øre coin from 1965.

And the backside of the coin has a picture of what I believe to be King Olav 1903-1991.

And this is what it looked like inside after everything was removed.

And then I started tearing out mats and scraping away the glued sound deadening mats and as I suspected I started to find rust under them.

Haven't found any serious rust yet just surface rust luckily. But there are a lot of glued sound dampening mats in this one and they are thick so I have at least 1 more full day of scraping and the smell inside has already improved.

And this is what I removed from the car today.

[Dyslexic Viking]

And I have no idea why the text got weird sometimes in the post above it has happened before without me understanding why.

Edit

This is what I meant

[tooSavvy]

^ ^ ^ "it's not how you say it, but what you say....!"

Bugger the text/font.....

Keep It Up, lad 👍🏆

[Dyslexic Viking]

Forgot about this yesterday. I found this in the picture under the dashboard. The text in Norwegian is  motor overhalt km 46780  which is translated to engine overhaul km 46780. This makes me wonder if this applies to the original engine? Because if this applied to the recon engine that is in it now, I would think that it would say engine replaced instead of overhauled. But this is probably something I will never find out. I would also like to know how many kilometers this had when this happened, as I doubt it only had 46,000 km when it needed an engine overhaul, but this is probably also something I will never know.

[jonathan_dyane]

1046740 maybe 😉

[Dyslexic Viking]

5 minutes ago, jonathan_dyane said:

1046740 maybe 😉

I'm so weird that if I could confirm that this has over 1 million km on it, I would actually be very happy. 

But I doubt that is the case unfortunately.

[Dyslexic Viking]

There will be an update tomorrow on the removal of sound dampening mats on this. But now I read up on the glow system on these and came across parts of a manual online which is possibly intended for marine versions of these engines, but it is probably very similar to this one and there is a lot of useful information here.

And these are wonderfully simple compared to the nightmare vehicles made in recent decades.

But my head doesn't like things like this, so it will probably take some time before I learn something. But if any of you need something to help you fall asleep, I  attach a link to the manual.

https://www.marinedieselbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/Mercedes-OM636-621-Preheating.pdf

[hairnet]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:55 PM, Dyslexic Viking said:

I'm so weird that if I could confirm that this has over 1 million km on it, I would actually be very happy. 

But I doubt that is the case unfortunately.

previous owner @warren t claim

 

[Dyslexic Viking]

2 minutes ago, hairnet said:

previous owner @warren t claim

 

I would be surprised if he ran a taxi company in Eastern Norway in the 1960s. 

[Dyslexic Viking]

I now have spent all free time since Wednesday removing sound dampening mats. Even with electric tools, this took a long time and was a shit job. But it was worth it as I discovered a lot of surface rust, several old welding repairs and 2 rust holes that need to be repaired.

This is how the floor looks now.

And i start on the floor by the driver's seat, this has a small hole that is difficult to see in the picture, so I have made a circle around it.

It also has a patch at the very back end of the floor

And it is also clear that the floor here has been changed several times and it is clear where new floors has been welded in at least 2 places have marked them by arrows

The floor behind the driver's seat has also been replaced atleast once and has also received another repair after this, which is at the bottom of the picture on the right.

And then there is the passenger side. This side has clearly not received many repairs and the floor in front is solid.

But the floor behind this has the biggest rust hole that I don't understand that I haven't discovered before.

So it is clear that this car is anything but untouched and is really well used, but given its age and history and use, this is not bad. Now it remains to fix the 2 rust holes and the floor on both sides should probably have been completely replaced, but I don't have the ability to do that and I can't afford it either. But after fixing those holes and treating the rust and painting the floor, it will probably and hopefully last for many more years before it has to be fixed again..

[Dyslexic Viking]

Think I forgot to mention that one of the reasons I'm doing all this work on the floor is that I'm going to buy a new carpet kit to this so I don't want to have to take it out again anytime soon.

I am considering buying this carpet kit from these  https://www.tapis-deluxe.com/en/  If anyone has any experience with this company, I would like to hear it. 

But the carpet kit for these is quite comprehensive and will improve the interior of this a lot. This kit is also not that expensive and there are many colors to choose from.  

So this is something I'm looking forward to.

[busmansholiday]

On 9/9/2022 at 8:18 PM, Dyslexic Viking said:

There will be an update tomorrow on the removal of sound dampening mats on this. But now I read up on the glow system on these and came across parts of a manual online which is possibly intended for marine versions of these engines, but it is probably very similar to this one and there is a lot of useful information here.

And these are wonderfully simple compared to the nightmare vehicles made in recent decades.

But my head doesn't like things like this, so it will probably take some time before I learn something. But if any of you need something to help you fall asleep, I  attach a link to the manual.

https://www.marinedieselbasics.com/wp-content/uploads/edd/Mercedes-OM636-621-Preheating.pdf

I've been looking at that diagram for ages and think I now understand how it's supposed to work.

The main switch (ignition key ?) connects power from the battery to pins 15/54 on the glow starter switch. When you activate (pull) the switch it connects power to pin 19 then to the glow warning light, the inline ballast resister and the glow plugs. If any of those are faulty the light doesn't come on, unless there's a short somewhere in the system (deliberate or accidental).

Now here's my understanding of the clever bit because at the same time as you connect up the glow plugs you also connect pins 17 and 50 together which should pull in the starter motor internal relay to turn over the engine as the supply for 17 is from the glow plug warning light. The warning light isn't a bulb though,  it's a wire, a wire that heats up when power (12v) is applied. As a wire heats up its resistance increases, so I think what happens is that initially all the power heats the warning light (which heats the glow plugs) then as it's resistance increases it gets to a point where the power finds it easier to get to earth via the relay for the starter motor and therefore turns over the engine. By then the glow plugs are warm and bingo.

Obviously there should be a delay when you pull the starter before the engine starts. If it's instant somebody has been messing with the wiring to bypass the glow system.

Hope this helps (and is correct).

 

[Mr Pastry]

My interpretation is that the glow starter switch works in two stages.  When first pushed, 19 and 15/54 are connected which activates the glow plugs via the series resistor and warning light.  When you think the plugs are hot enough you push the switch in further, and that connects 17 and 50 to operate the starter and as said, that effectively shorts out the glow plugs through the starter solenoid.  

 

 

[busmansholiday]

25 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

My interpretation is that the glow starter switch works in two stages.  When first pushed, 19 and 15/54 are connected which activates the glow plugs via the series resistor and warning light.  When you think the plugs are hot enough you push the switch in further, and that connects 17 and 50 to operate the starter and as said, that effectively shorts out the glow plugs through the starter solenoid.  

 

 

I think that's a better description than mine as looking again it appears there are bigger gaps between 17 and 50 suggesting a two stage operation as you described. 

[Dyslexic Viking]

Thank you both. These are started with a knob that you pull out of the dashboard. One pull it out and holds it in position 2 to light the glow plugs. And if you pull it even further out to position 3, you engage the starter. When you then release it, it goes to position 1, which is the engine running, and when you will switch it off, then  press it to position 0.

Knob marked below. And a bad drawing to demonstrate how it works.

I'll start troubleshooting the glow plugs as soon as I have time. I also have to try to figure out what is wrong with the clutch.

[DodgeRover]

I wouldn't be surprised if it was rebuilt at that milage, ours did it's head gasket at around 40,000 miles

[Dyslexic Viking]

I think it seems very low mileage for an engine overhaul. I know a lot of engines back then had short lives but this is a Mercedes and a diesel so I would expect better. So I think the mileage is more than what it says on the label. But since the odometer restarts every 100,000 it is impossible to know.

But know that we had many 1960s Volvos in the family that lasted long before an engine overhaul was necessary. So will assume that these engines that are in this one should be the same.

[Nullzwei]

What are your plans for sound/ vibration insulation once you have the floorpan repaired and rust proofed? Could be a good opportunity to make your car much quieter.

Mercedes went to great lengths in the later w201 models to make the cabin as quiet as possible using floorpan sound deadening pads, a raised plastic false floor in the front footwells (pic below) followed by another thick sound deadening layer and then the carpets. So much sound deadening your feet are a good 3 to 4 inches above the actual metal floorpan. The engine bay was also thoroughly insulated using thick sound deadening pads.

Later Mercedes models in scrapyards may be a good source of high quality insulation materials for not much money.