Selling cars question

[wuvvum]

OK, I've got a bit of a problem. I sold the Ozz Tin earlier in the week via an advert on C&C; I advertised it as "bought as a project, most work done, needs minor jobs to finish" or words to that effect. I advertised it at a price which I thought reflected its condition, going on what similar cars have been making on eBay (a slightly earlier 10 which looked in better condition than mine but was still off the road with no T&T sold for £750 more than my asking price on the Bay yesterday - and this is three weeks from Christmas). I had an enquiry from a chap who lives quite a way away and couldn't get up here to view the car. In his email he said something along the lines of "the paint looks great; is it?" I replied that it wasn't too bad but would need a good cut down and polish - it had been brush painted by the previous owner and IMHO didn't look too bad (although it did indeed need a good cut down and polish), I didn't specifically mention it had been brush painted as to most people that implies being painted in emulsion with a broom, and it was rather better than that. He also asked me about rust, and I said that all the rot had been chopped out and replaced with new metal and the only rust I was aware of was in the sunroof channels - all of which was true to the best of my knowledge (welding was done by the previous owner). The chap gets the car home (having bought it sight unseen and sent a transporter up to collect it) and isn't happy - he reckons the paint is dreadful and won't cut down properly and he says he's found rust under the paint where he's rubbed it down. He also says the engine is breathing - I can't comment one way or the other about this, but when I had the car the engine ran smoothly, sounded healthy, didn't smoke excessively and held adequate oil pressure, so as far as I'm concerned it's fit for its purpose and I'm not really interested in a bit of wear in a 65-year-old engine. The problem is that he's now talking about suing. I did initially offer to send him some money towards getting the paint sorted as a good will gesture, but now he's making noises about legal action I've obviously put that offer on hold (good will quickly evaporates when legal action is mentioned). He hasn't mentioned specifics but I get the impression he's going to try to claim for the cost of a rub down & respray and engine rebuild. I don't think he's got much of a leg to stand on on the mechanical front as I didn't make any claims about the engine other than that it ran and sounded OK, but I'm a little more worried about the paint (I had told him that it should come up OK with a cut and polish as I believed this to be the case, but apparently this wasn't accurate - I never tried polishing it so didn't know for sure one way or the other), and I am slightly more worried about the fact that he claims to have found rust in the body where I said (again, I believed this to be true at the time) that there was none. He's also said that the welding that has been done is not of a sufficient standard to pass the MoT, which I am 99.9999% sure is bollocks as I've know the previous owner for several years during which time he has welded up dozens of neglected classics and none of them has ever failed a test on welding - in fact many which are still local are still passing their MoTs three or four years later.My question is this: If he did try to take me to court, what is likely to happen? I sold the car as a project needing a couple of weekends' tinkering to get it through an MoT and on the road; he seems to have been expecting a car that needed a quick wipe over with a fluffy rag to get to concours condition. The problem is that I've never been in this situation before (either on the receiving or the giving end - when I've bought cars which have been misdescribed (which has happened a number of times) I've chalked it down to experience and got on with it) so I'm not quite sure what to expect, and Google isn't a lot of help really. If I'd sold the car as being in immaculate condition with a rebuilt engine and ready for an MoT then it might be a bit more clear cut in the buyer's favour, but I didn't.My second question is, what happens if he tries to convince the court that I'm a trader? The Trading Standards website defines a car trader as "a person who regularly buys and sells cars for purposes other than their own personal use", which doesn't apply to me - like many of us, I do get through quite a few cars, but all the cars I buy are for my own use, they all get registered to me and I certainly don't make any money when I sell them; but if he does try to play this card, would the burden of proof be on him to prove that I am a trader or on me to prove that I'm not?Any advice would be much appreciated - I sold the car in good faith for a price which I think was fair given its condition, and really don't need the stress at the moment. I'd appreciate informed opinion rather than speculation though - ta.

[VWPowered]

i thought that was the reason behind sold as seen??..hope you sort it chap

[AlsoMike]

He agreed the deal without seeing the car, I think this puts the ball in your court, so to speak. There was a guy on RR who had this problem with a buyer, seller was taken to court, but they found in his favour because the buyer didn't view the vehicle prior to purchase.

 

http://retrorides.proboards.com/index.c ... read=71443

 

Now I know this was through ebay, but the same things may apply to your problem. I think this guy bought your Austin hoping that it would be better than described and is now pissed off that he's not got the bargain of the century. He's taking the piss, don't give in to him!

[nigel bickle]

Caveat emptor applies here. You're a private seller - not trade, so its 'Buyer Beware'.I'll wager he'll not do it - bit of huffing/puffing; but I'm happy to discusspros/cons -in detail, if needed.Nowt to be scared of-if he went to Court he wouldnt win.

[wuvvum]

i thought that was the reason behind sold as seen??..

Me too, but in light of Cavette's recent post I'm not so sure that still applies. Presumably though a court will take the price I sold it for into consideration? There was a 1933 Ten on eBay last week - more desirable than mine but in need of probably more work, including a respray - which was on a BIN for £3,350 - more or less double what I was asking for mine. It didn't sell, but that's what the seller was asking for it.

[Mr Lobster]

As above really. It would be relatively easy to see / prove you are not a trader which means its a private sale.He didn't inspect the car he bought privately and is then disappointed with it. Sorry but thats his fault for not looking at it first.I'd be very surprised if he actually went legal with it, he will no as well as you do that he is on dodgy ground so won't want to risk landing himself with any fees. He's using the threat of going legal in the hop it will scare you into backing down.A court would take a balanced view in terms of vehicle age, price and what you have told him. He has clearly been told it required some work and that as the car was being sold below what might be considered guide price then the buyer should expect that. Plus it would be more than reasonable to expect a 70+ year old car could have any number of issues which inspection would have picked up.

[Guest]

It was a very old car which he decided to buy unseen, tell him to go whistle.

[Spiny Norman]

Any private sale on fleabay is very much a case or 'buyer beware' and I'd agree with the general sentiment that he/his missus is having second thoughts and is trying to weasel out the deal.Did he have the opportunity to inspect the goods before purchase?Did he avail himself of this opportunity?Tell him to spin on it, no court in the land would find in his favour.

[wuvvum]

Did he have the opportunity to inspect the goods before purchase?Did he avail himself of this opportunity?

Yes, he did. And no, he didn't - he decided it was too far.If he was trying to claim that I misrepresented the car, would he need to prove that I did so deliberately, or would the fact that he found some rust where I said there shouldn't be any constitute misrepresentation even though I wasn't aware of its existence?

[AlsoMike]

You can only describe a car to the best of your knowledge. There probably isn't any rust anyway.

[Ratdat]

He bought a very old car that wasn't roadworthy for a reasonable price without checking it out to his satisfaction first. Caveat Emptor as Nigels says. I'd let him know that you were prepared to listen to his grievances until he started making threats, but now he can cram it. Christ, when i've bought stuff blind like that and it's turned out to be a shitbox, I've just taken the bullet and got on with it!

[Ratdat]

Did he have the opportunity to inspect the goods before purchase?Did he avail himself of this opportunity?

Yes, he did. And no, he didn't - he decided it was too far.If he was trying to claim that I misrepresented the car, would he need to prove that I did so deliberately, or would the fact that he found some rust where I said there shouldn't be any constitute misrepresentation even though I wasn't aware of its existence?

The other point to bear in mind is what would have happened if you weren't at all car savvy? Most people aren't and wouldn't know the difference between a good car and a bad one. asking a seller to describe a car is a bit foolish as it makes the assumption they know what they are talking about. The man is clearly a fool.

[Cavcraft]

Personally I'd e-mail (not phone) and state whatever the amount you offered him was a goodwill gesture and you will not be increasing the offer.Was the car MOT'd? If not there's even less chance of him getting anywhere with this frankly frivulous claim.He did NOt come and viw the car (I'm sure you had suggested he was welcome to ), he bought a restoration project 'site unseen' and he got it cheap. He's a tit. Any court would see this.BUT...if he does try and take you to a County Court you MUST attend. if you don't they will very likely find in his favour.If it does go that far then keep any correspondance you've had with him and inform him should he contact you again it must be in writing.Get some proof of other cars advertised being for much more money than you asked/he paid, keep a copy of the advert and go from there.He'd have to be a weapons grade knob jockey to take this any further but don't assume he won't.County Courts will take vaulation of your car and others into consideration and in the even they found against you I'm pretty sure you'd only have to pay a nominal amount.Go armed with the cost of a respray and any other work he said needed doing then suggest to the C.C that had all the work been done then the car would have cost another 'x' hundreds or thousands of quid. I reckon he's trying it on. Stick to your guns of whatever amount you agreed to refund and don't offer any more. I can't see what harm calling his bluff is going to do, but may be have a word with Citizens Advice first to play safe.A 60 odd year old car bought unseen and he wants a refund or something? I really don't believe he has a leg to stand on here but like I say if it goes to C.C then turn up and turn up armed.

[wuvvum]

No the car wasn't MoT'd, and the advert stated that it still needed some work to finish. So far the bloke has complained that the clutch doesn't work (it does, it's just very light - he hadn't even tried it), that the running board rubbers are held on with strips of wood (they are, and this is clearly visible in the pictures on the advert), that the headlining is held up with strips of wood and wood screws (it is, but I stated expressly in the ad that the headlining would need redoing). I got the impression that initially he was trying it on for a refund, which wasn't going to happen, especially as this would have meant me going to pick the car up from over 200 miles away at my own cost.Edit: one more question - if it goes to County Court, would that be here or in his local court?

[Guest]

He would apply through his local county court and it would start with you being sent details of their claim. You would then be able to submit a defence on the form to the court, which would then go back to them and then subsequently the person who made the claim. If he proceeds and there's a hearing, it can then be transferred to your local county court. Can't remember whether that is automatic or not - I think you get to choose on the defence form.As long as he is threatening court action I would emphasize that your offer of money was merely a goodwill gesture and was turned down - state that on the defence too.

[Cavcraft]

From: http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/images/ca41_tcm9-8187.pdf

 

 

'...The case is likely to be heard in the county court where

the defendant lives or is based but not when the defendant is a firm,

limited company or public limited company. You may be able to apply to

have the case transferred but there is no guarantee this will be.'

 

Based on your last statement there's probably as much chance of him winning a claim of any worth as there is of me going upstairs to find Emma Bunton waiting for me in bed.

[ChinaTom]

I'm no lawyer, but I would insist the use of the term "reckless" in his decision to buy unseen when a large proportion of his complaints would have been identified during an inspection.Surely, if he was that dissatisfied, he should have attempted to reject the car before taking it apart thereby muddying his own burden of proof stuff. The car won't be in the court for the Mag to inspect.If you have a Solicitor or a friend who is one and who owes you a pint, then just send the chap a very polite letter explaining your point of view and ask him to direct any response to your Solicitor.In the majority of cases, I would expect the mixture of candid rational written explanation of the facts, a genuine regret you had that he was so disappointed and a Solicitor's address will make him weigh up the possible misrepresentations that you clearly and naturally are worrying about and his reckless decision to buy something described as a project unseen; and know when to give up and be more careful next time.Hope it doesn't get nasty on you.

[garbaldy]

I got the impression that initially he was trying it on for a refund, which wasn't going to happen, especially as this would have meant me going to pick the car up from over 200 miles away at my own cost.?

this has happened to lots off sellers who sell to lazy people who cant be 4rsed to go and view a car first i wouldnt dream off buying any car without a veiwing unless it was for a bargain price and one that i would be willing to loose on the gamble.when this happened to me through the bay i sent an email to the buyer offering a full refund if he returned the car in the same condition it left here in, its been over 4 years and im still waiting for the car to be delivered i think he will be chanceing his mit expecting threats off court to get you to pay him money back.

[Claypole]

I've bought a few cars unseen (that cheap it was worth the risk) and you take the rough with the smooth.He should have been and viewed it and I think that's his downfall as regards any legal action.He's trying it on.

[Richard]

It doesn't really matter that we would all take it on the chin if we were disappointed with a car, the question is about somebody who has decided not to accept it.I've had it happen to me once, also with an Austin. The guy phoned me up a couple of months after I'd sold him a reasonably tidy Allegro Estate with a new MOT and 6 months tax for £250 and moaned about one of the front tie bars coming adrift. He was talking about reporting me to somebody or other so i told him to go ahead, my conscience was clear. I never heard any more about it.In this case I think you're probably in the clear but it would pay to nip it in the bud before lawyers get in on it. I deal with trading standards people quite a bit in my job, if i encounter one in the near future I'll ask them what they think about this. It might be worth phoning them yourself for a conversation, all the ones I've met have been quite pleasant.

[Albert Ross]

Where does the tosser live? Can someone local go and brick the fucker's windows? Then fuck his cat?

[Cavcraft]

Whoa! Leave his cat out of it, you, you, you bully!I know what I'd be tempted to do though and it would involve a water pistol, some brake fluid and a 'drive by'.

[woolleyiain]

Bollocks to him. He sounds like a complete mutant. If I'd bought a 65 year old car without a recent mot that I'd never clapped eyes on I'd be pleasantly surprised if it still had floors, I'd be ecstatic if it started and even sort of ran. I hope he realizes he's been a tool and goes away.

[Rocket88]

As previously posted, the fact that he bought it blind, which was his decision, and not yours, rather torpedos any chance he's got of successfully sueing you. I reckon his other half has stuck her oar in

[Richard]

Is there any way you can find out a bit more about him? It would be useful to know if he's pulled this sort of stunt before, how far he took it and what the outcome was.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Its amazing what people think is possible nowadays isnt it. In this age of digital camears, email and the like it has never been easier to check a car out 'at a distance' and satisfy yourself as to what youre buying. Its not like buying unseen 20 years ago off the strength of a craply-printed 1" square photo in auto trader. Did he request a load of extra pics of specific bits? I bet he didnt. And at the end of the day he was simply too busy, mean or lazy to come and check it out before handing over the zlotys. The guy sounds like either a chancer, or just a fuggin idiot. I suggest calling his bluff by telling him your conscience is clear and that he can ram it. any court case he manages to get going will be laughed outta town before it even gets into a courtroom.

[wuvvum]

Did he request a load of extra pics of specific bits? I bet he didnt.

He requested pics of the interior and the engine, which I sent him. I even attached them to my email as files rather than as photos so he would get the full resolution. He never asked for close-ups of any part of the bodywork, underside or paintwork.

[Rod/b]

Call his bluff. As everyone here has said if it ever got to court it wouldn't get anywhere. He bought a car that he knew was i) unroadworthy (no MOT), ii) was described as an unfinished project, and iii) that he hadn't seen or inspected after iv) himself deciding he'd rather not accept the opportunity to do so. It's his problem.Personally i'd withdraw the offer you made of the goodwill gesture too; tell him if he wants to go to court you'll see him there. A first class bellend, by the sounds of things.

[Spiny Norman]

Personally i'd withdraw the offer you made of the goodwill gesture..... too;

Goes without saying that as soon as someone starts behaving like an asshole, any goodwill on your part should evaporate like the morning dew.He's having major buying regrets and is trying to bully you into making everything all right in his world again. I wouldn't even grace his empty threats with any more responses, just tell him in no uncertain terms to go fuck himself and leave any further emails from the twat unanswered.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Hey, just remember, if this was 10 years ago this guy would be round your house or ringing you up asking dumb questions, now you can politely dispatch him from the comfort of your computer desk.he's clearly just a clever bleeder who's sat at his home PC with a cup of tea idly scannning the bay, not a serious buyer, so dont worry about him.