project Marina-Should I do it or Not(possible project) UPDATED: IT'S RUNNING!

[PhilA]

Yeah, I had that on a car of mine with a BW-35- the little arms have plastic ends and they get loose and like to pop off. The only solution is to polish the ball ends on the selector lever (they get rough and chew the plastic up) and replace the ends. They're pretty standard stuff.

I would drop the oil, doesn't hurt to flush it through especially if it's a complete unknown. The BW-35 is a fairly straightforward gearbox so I reckon you can probably get it going. Would recommend getting a pressure gauge for it though- you may find that's why it's not wanting to engage, particularly if you rev it and it thumps into gear in D.

 

Phil

[1970mgb]

A new pan gasket and screen is on its way, so hopefully that will help things out. I hope I can get the linkage sorted out too while I'm under there.

The parts list so far is a bit daunting, and I still need to do tires. While I'm sorting out other stuff, I'm considering putting the car up on stands, pulling the wheels, and running them to the tire shop so at least they'll be in good shape when it's all said and done.

Here's what I've bought:

1. Points, cap, and rotor(haven't even installed yet since it's currently running okay)

2. Ignition switch from Skip-got the car running

3. Miscellaneous items at NAPA including fuel hose, hose clamps, fuel filter(Just told them I'm buying for an MGB to make life easier), oil, etc

4. Scott's toilet paper from the dollar store for the bypass oil filter

5. Carburetor parts(float, needle valve, gasket pack, solid disk butterfly) from Joe Curto

6. Upper and lower radiator hoses from Skip

7. Transmission pan gasket and screen from Skip
 

[tooSavvy]

What is the 'US alternative/smog' butterfly disc? Poppet valve?

I thought the carb inlet disc was always flat plate/blank*

*I am aware a very small hole is sometimes drilled through for idling (on some fixed jet carbs)....

[1970mgb]

Sometime in the late 1960s, US spec SUs(and ZSs) started shipping with a poppet valve in the throttle disk. Supposedly, the reason was that when the when the throttle "snaps" closed, the engine goes lean for a moment and emissions go way up. The poppet would open to somewhat balance things out.

The problem with the poppet is two fold. For one thing, it's a big obstruction in the flow through the carburetor throat. Admittedly this isn't a big deal in most street cars, but at the same time you have such a small amount of power to start with tha even little things like that can help(and an automatic US spec Marina needs all the help it can get). The second thing is that the springs are not very strong, and can also be ruined even with one good backfire through the carb. Once the spring goes bad, the valve can "leak" and cause an unstable idle.

Yes, technically getting rid of it is removing factory emissions equipment, a felony, but I'd challenge even the most diligent CARB(California Air Resource Board) inspector to find it.

[PhilA]

These days, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find an inspection tech who even knows what an SU carb is, let alone what the throttle butterfly should look like.

 

At this juncture you're likely to be letting more air in via the throttle spindle and phenolic base than through the poppet at high-vacuum over-run to idle anyway

[SiC]

I believe the throttle spindles leaking is much less of a problem on the HIF series than the HS. Throttle poppet valves caused a whole manor of crap idle on the HIFs on my MGB till I binned them. They looked in good condition too.

HIFs are a much superior design imo to HS series. Makes sense as SU designed the HIF series to fix the short comings of the HS. Only pain in the arse is setting the float height. But once that's done it is pretty much fit and forget (providing the floats don't leak). 

Rebuilding them was a piece of piss. Not many parts and it was obvious where all the bits go back. When re-tuning, don't forget to make sure the engine bay is properly up to temperature as the bimetallic strip will affect running at other temperatures if tuned otherwise. If underbonnet temperatures get hot (hot day and heat soaked restart), they can run a bit on the lean side until cool fuel starts getting sucked through because of that bimetallic strip on the needle. Either a bit of throttle on startup or a bit of choke can help if it's struggling to start and stay running. 

[1970mgb]

  On 18/09/2019 at 21:36, SiC said:

I believe the throttle spindles leaking is much less of a problem on the HIF series than the HS. Throttle poppet valves caused a whole manor of crap idle on the HIFs on my MGB till I binned them. They looked in good condition too.

HIFs are a much superior design imo to HS series. Makes sense as SU designed the HIF series to fix the short comings of the HS. Only pain in the arse is setting the float height. But once that's done it is pretty much fit and forget (providing the floats don't leak). 

Rebuilding them was a piece of piss. Not many parts and it was obvious where all the bits go back. When re-tuning, don't forget to make sure the engine bay is properly up to temperature as the bimetallic strip will affect running at other temperatures if tuned otherwise. If underbonnet temperatures get hot (hot day and heat soaked restart), they can run a bit on the lean side until cool fuel starts getting sucked through because of that bimetallic strip on the needle. Either a bit of throttle on startup or a bit of choke can help if it's struggling to start and stay running. 

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Thanks for the tips-HIFs are admittedly a bit of an unknown territory for me, and I'd forgotten about the bimetallic strip.

Leaky floats shouldn't be a problem since Joe only supplies the black foam(nitrophyl) ones that I've come to prefer on HS type carbs. And yes I too have heard that spindle wear is really not a problem in HIF type carbs since, IIRC, the shafts ride in easily replaceable plastic(nylon?) bushings...which reminds me that I probably should have ordered some. Oh well-I'll get it later. I've been putting Dow-Corning Hi-Vac grease on my HS shafts when I have them apart, but that's not a permanent fix-I need to send a set off and let a professional(i.e. Joe) rebuild them.

Poppet valves are nothing but trouble in my experience too.

[SiC]

I didn't have too much luck with the stayup floats

I fitted the originals back in as they didn't leak and I didn't trust the stayups. 

YRMV

[1970mgb]

Oh boy-thanks for the forewarning on that.

I'd like to THINK that Joe wouldn't sell the nitrophyls if they're problematic, especially since he is a rebuilder/restorer first and foremost, and wouldn't want to sell a part that has problems.

I'll certainly give them a good check out before installing, though, and my old one is still good if worse comes to worse.

I know there's a lot to like about the HIF, but one unfortunate thing about the design is that you can't get to the float chamber with the carb on the car like you can with HS and earlier type carbs.

[1970mgb]

Also, the radiator hoses arrived last night.

On one hand, unlike MGBs, the Marina is uncommon enough that it's nice to be able to still get NOS parts.

On the other hand, there are times when I wish new parts were available, and when it comes to rubber, that is one of those times.

I don't know whether it's nice or scary to see the sphincter on a "new" part you just bought.

Also, last night's Autozone shopping list:

1. Some more fuel/emissions hose(most everything is crusty, and I don't trust it)...I'm not buying this any more from Autozone as Napa is usually $2-3 a foot for good Gates hose and Autozone is over $4/foot for their house brand. I'm sure the latter is fine, but I trust Gates and there's no reason to not buy it especially when it's less expensive.

2. 4 Quarts of Type F ATF. I had to hunt around a lot to find this, and finally found a single row of bottles on a bottom shelf. Supposedly, it takes 6 1/2 US pints with a pan drain, but figured it didn't hurt to have spares

3. Loctite thread locker specified for oil junctions, etc. The service manual says to put "Loctite Hydraulic" on the transmission drain plug, and I'm going to assume(dangerous, I know) that this is the modern equivalent.

[1970mgb]

Well, looks like Joe Curto supplied white plastic floats of what he calls the "I beam" style. He has a video discussion HIF float types(on Youtube) where he mentions that the "tobacco colored" cross-type float can sometimes twist and bind. I'm guessing he had the same issues reported with nitrophyl.

In any case, I stuck the piston and float chamber bottom in the tumbler with walnut shells, and I'll let it run for a few hours while I've worked on stripping down and some other service to the carb body. I'll try to cycle the body and dome through the tumbler this evening and before I go to work tomorrow.

[1970mgb]

Not the prettiest rebuild I've ever done, but it should be functional.

I'm glad that I ended up with a complete gasket kit for the carb, which included the spindle gaskets(or whatever you want to call them). The old ones were definitely crusty and fell apart when I took the throttle shaft out.

I didn't feel like going in to work to polish stuff up on the wire wheel. I mentioned tumbling earlier, but given the warnings about tiny passages to get clogged, I was afraid to tumble the body. I ended up just using a brass brush to clean it up as best as I could.

 

[1970mgb]

Alright, so a few odds and ends to report:

First of all, I put the carburetor back in it, but I'm not sure if I got the linkages quite right. The choke doesn't seem to work. I wish I'd photographed the whole thing better, but it's nothing insurmountable. It's funny that I feel like I can do dual carb MGBs in my sleep, but the single carb Marina seems in some ways more complicated. The tranmission kick down cable does complicate things a bit. It's dark now, so I'll revisit it with fresh eyes tomorrow-I'm sure it's nothing major.

I also got the back end jacked up and did a rear brake appraisal. The adjusters were sticky and the drums were reluctant to come off(big surprise on both) but I did at least get them inspected and adjusted. The shoes are probably at 50%, so I'll leave them be for now. Before I let it back down, I'll probably flush some fresh fluid through it, but that's about it.

With the back wheels up in the air, I also decided to try my luck with the transmission. One of my big motivations was seeing if I could get the fluid warmed up for an easier drain. although I knew I probably couldn't do much without actually putting any torque through it. I did get the wheels spinning, although they needed a push before going.

So, with that done, I turned my attention to the transmission itself. The train plug threw me off since it was a big flat headed screw and not a hex headed nut, but it didn't fight me too much about coming loose. I pulled it(actually before I started working on the brakes), but I didn't get a lot of fluid out. The manual says that the refill capacity with a pan drain is 6 1/2 US pints, but I probably got less than a quart out. I had scrubbed my drain pan before doing this to get an idea of the fluid coming out, and although the "edges" are red, it pretty quickly blackens up toward the deeper parts of the pan.

I figured I'd go ahead and just drop the pan. That wasn't TOO bad of a job at least initially, but when it finally let go I found well over a quart left in it. It's pretty nasty/sludgy looking. Also, the strainer screen is tattered pretty badly.

I called it quits from there since it's dark. I'll try to finish up the job tomorrow. The tentative plan is just wipe down everything I can get to, scrub the pan, change the screen, give everything a wipe down with ATF as a final rinse/solvent, and then bolt it all back up.

So, first of all, brakes

 

Then, my initial fluid drain

 

A good portion of what was left in the pan

The screen in the transmission(sorry for the terrible quality-it was dark and I was photographing from an awkward angle)

For reference, this is what the screen is SUPPOSED to look like...

 

[PhilA]

Good job on dropping that down really. The oil pan holds a fair chunk but the torque converter cannot be drained down without taking it off the engine, and even then not fully.

That'll likely turn the oil real dark real quick. There's an oil pressure test point by the pump if I recall correctly- useful to check see that it's actually creating the correct pressure to begin with.

 

Phil

 

NB if you (or someone you know) has a Sam's Club card they're doing DEXRON-II/III ATF for $2/qt right now (box of 12)

[face]

  On 19/09/2019 at 06:39, SiC said:

I didn't have too much luck with the stayup floats

I fitted the originals back in as they didn't leak and I didn't trust the stayups. 

YRMV

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[1970mgb]

I just spent some time cleaning a nice layer of sludge out of the bottom of the pan.

 

Unfortunately, I also found some other bad news-I found a few decent sized chunks(think pea gravel) of a lightweight black material that I'm afraid might be pieces of band. The magnet also had some metal shavings on it.

I have the fresh screen installed, and am waiting for Permatex to set up on the gasket(I tried to do it dry, but keeping the gasket in place while I started bolts and held the pan was beyond me). I may also try using a jack to hold the pan up close while I start the bolts, but I'll attack that tomorrow.

We'll see what happens with a fresh fill of fluid. I'm not overly hopeful, but this is kind of my "hail Mary" before the whole thing comes out. If it does come to life, I'll probably try to get a few hundred miles on it and do another drain and fill since-as mentioned-a pan drain only gets a small portion of the fluid.

[PhilA]

Does sound like a band beginning to break up. It may drive with adjustment and new fluid though.

[1970mgb]

That's my hope.

I'm going to go through the band adjustment procedure before I button it all back up and see if MAYBE I can milk a bit more life out of it while I hunt for either a rebuilder or a drop-in replacement. It looks like I may need to pick up a 1/4" drive inch-pound torque wrench to do the band adjustment correctly.

The funny thing is, Marina auto transmissions use to be a dime a dozen. Apparently, a lot got gobbled as a more or less drop in for MGBs and MGCs, and especially the latter since they're somewhat common with autos and I understand that they can be a bit hard on them. The supply seems to have dried up, though. At least the BW35 is common enough in other applications that there are a lot of parts out there and people who know how to work on them.

[PhilA]

Does the BW65 fit in the Marina transmission tunnel? It's not far off in size and is a stronger design.

Phil

[1970mgb]

Not sure on that one-it's pretty snug in there with a 35. Also, is there a length difference? I'd have to think about the drive shaft if there is.

Given that the 35 was used on some decently potent American cars, you'd think that a piddly little 1.8L driving a 3000lb car wouldn't be TOO much for it...

[PhilA]

Yeah, the 65 is longer.

People like to talk down about the 35 but I never had any real major problems with mine, except it was slightly possessed

[1970mgb]

So, @PhilA , if I may bug you with an auto question.

I'd like to adjust the front band before I put the pan back on(the rear one is adjustable from outside the case).

The service manual actually doesn't cover front band adjustment, but a generic spec I found for the BW35 is that the front band adjuster gets torqued to 10 inch-lbs(with a 6mm feeler, which seems awfully thick, but I guess I can stack gauges to get there).

My dilemma is that without shelling out big bucks, at this point the lower limit of my torque wrench is 20 inch-lbs. Not knowing the intricacies of automatics, part of me thinks snugging it up tighter MIGHT help if it is indeed slipping, but I'm also afraid of breaking or damaging something even further with 2z the spec torque value.

Any thoughts on this? If I want to adjust, should I find a way to somehow get a 10 inch-lb wrench on it?

[PhilA]

That's tiny! 13 oz/ft

If that's correct get a spring gauge that's good to 1lb and measure 12 inches to the end of a ratchet and pull to 13 ounces.

 

My small torque wrench starts at 20 in/lb, for comparison.

Phil

[1970mgb]

Good suggestion-thanks. I think I can dig up a spring gauge at work.

[1970mgb]

I realize I haven't updated this in a few weeks. It's been a bit hectic around here-went to Florida with my girlfriend, came back with my fiancé, and some other big things like that, but I'm finally sitting down to write down what's new with the car.

I decided to forgo band adjustment on the advice of the guy who will likely be rebuilding it, so buttoned it back up with the new pan gasket. I know that the conventional wisdom is to put these on dry, but lining up that many bolt holes through a cork gasket seemed to require 4 hands even using a jack to(lightly) support the pan. So, with that in mind, I ran a thin bead of Permatex around the pan and let it set up overnight(upside down with a brick on top) to hold the gasket in place. With that on, it was fairly straight forward to get the pan bolted back on. I did employ the jack again just to free up my hands so that I could line up bolts with one and holes with the other, but that's nothing too exotic.

With that done, I went back to the engine, which unfortunately defeated my attempts to start and stay running after the carb refresh(which seems to be how things go for me). That was right before I left for Florida, so I decided to shelf that and mull it over.

Once back, I pulled the carb and found first of all that despite the fuel pump running(and pumping at a reasonable flow rate) the carb had almost no gas in it when I opened it up. Some more experimenting showed me that the needle valve seemed to be sticking closed-I could free it manually and could blow through it fine. "Tilting" the carb(to move the float) would close it fine also, but it wouldn't reopen when the float dropped. I spent a bit of time last night mulling it over, as it seemed to slide in and out of the seat easily enough. Still, though, I pulled both the needle and seat out and, after looking a bit more, I lightly drug each "edge" of the needle along a sheet of 2000 grit sandpaper. Another test fit had it moving a lot more freely, and it worked fine when tilting.

So, with that in mind, I stuck it back on the car and after some protests got it running albeit not great. At this point, I still had the car on the ground, and it would at least go backwards a few inches(I didn't want to really test it anymore).

This evening, I got the rear end back up, snugged up some fittings under the hood, and the engine started up without too much protest and ran well. I think I still have a stray vacuum leak as it wants to idle at ~1100 rpms, but I can deal with that later. The important thing it is running.

Then, another problem decided to crop up. Somewhere or another along the way, the left rear brakes decided to lock up nice and tight.

Thanks to it having an open differential, though, I was at least able to play with the transmission and the right rear wheel spins the correct direction according to where it's set.

I'm out of giving it another road test for now, though, with the seized brake. I pulled that wheel and attempted to back off the adjuster, which of course was tight also. Amazingly enough, I hadn't needed to use any PB blaster on the car to this point. I picked up my one can, and it gave a feeble squirt before giving out. I'll go grab some more tomorrow, but in the mean time I squirted both the adjuster and the area around the center of the disk with some Marvel Mystery Oil.

So, I'll see if I can get things cooperating tomorrow. If so, I MIGHT brave another road test, but I'll have to see.

[Mrs6C]

^^^ Many congratulations on all fronts!

[1970mgb]

Not too many photos to share here, but I thought I'd update a bit since I think I've made some progress on the brake front.

Oiling didn't really accomplish anything. I put a wrench on the adjuster(yes, I have a "proper" 1/4" square wrench made just for adjusting brakes), and promptly snapped off the square when I started bearing down too much on it.

Still, though, through some judicious application of brute force, I was able to "convince" the drum that it wanted to come off. I managed to get a bit of attention in the process-one neighbor asked me if I'd heard all the commotion that "sounded like someone hitting a metal plate with a hammer"...of course I denied . None the less, frequent and specific application of my BFH did finally get the drum off.

It still wasn't immediately obvious to me why the shoes weren't retracting, but I'll worry about that later. In the short term, I focused on the adjuster.

Here's the brake assembly with the top spring removed and the shoes pulled away from the adjuster

I rummaged through the trunk and found a couple of backing plates, but elected to grab the most stripped one that only had a cylinder and adjuster still attached to it. On that particular one, the adjuster was missing one of the pins that contacts the shoe, but at least the housing and the screw were intact.

I unbolted both that one and the one on the car from their backing plates, and brought both in to work with me today to fiddle with as I had time. Amazingly enough, the retaining bolts on both offered essentially no resistance to coming off-a welcome treat.

The first step was boiling in solvent(an acetone/kerosene mixture in this case) to get the worst of the grease and grime off, followed by boiling in dilute phosphoric acid to take care of the worst of the rust.

After that, I proceeded again to the "brute force" phase. I clamped the adjuster in a vice, then hit it with a torch to try and break it loose. With it still hot, I melted some parrafin wax onto the threads hoping that would get drawn in and help, but I still didn't get too far. Finally, I occurred to me that since they were dissimilar metals(steel and aluminum), heat+quench might do the job. Sure enough, heating and then dumping on water then required only a gentle tap on the wrench to have the adjuster moving. I still had the pin to get out, but heat+quench got that taken care of too. The other adjuster responded well to the same treatment.

Once everything was apart, I gave it all another quick acid bath and left it in kerosene for the weekend. I'll wire brush everything on Monday and then hopefully have it all ready to go back together. Of course, with the rear brake back together, I'll bleed the whole system to clear and make sure the brake fluid is in good shape.

Given how well the transmission responded to static testing, I MIGHT brave another road test on Monday. I'll have to see. It won't be as long or as taxing as the last one so that hopefully I'll have enough life left in it to limp it back home(or safely ditch it where I can leave it for a few hours, walk back home and let it cool down, and then come back) if it does start slipping again.

[dozeydustman]

Excellent progress sir, well done

[dozeydustman]

Excellent progress sir, well done

[1970mgb]

I have a lot of good stuff going on in my life now. At the top of the list is getting married in October, but I'm also starting a new job in August and consequently will be moving two states away. I'm furloughed from work, and since I'll only be going back for a few weeks before changing jobs, I've elected to move back in with my parents and so am working now on moving out of my condo hopefully before the end of May.

My bride-to-be also has said that until we can get a nice big house out in the country with a big garage or barn , I'm allowed a driver and one fun car/project. Since I currently was one over that number, I had to make a decision, and  picked the Marina to go over the MG.

My mechanic is currently putting an O/D in the MG, and since he likes weird/interesting stuff I asked if he'd be willing to trade the Marina for work on the MG. He agreed, and just left a few minutes ago with it.

I'm sad to see it go, but I left it in good hands and he's excited about getting it back on the road.