Triumph - That was a year that was..

[Bfg]

Season Greetings to one and all.   Ho., Ho., Ho.,  says the big guy with the grey beard that looks back at me from the mirror.

Just an afternoon of pottering tasks ..on the slay, this past week or so . . .

  

^ cardboard template and then the almost finished article in ribbed rubber, which befittingly was up-cycled from a damaged piece used on the shelves in the Range  household store.

   

^ In case you're wondering, it's simply a noise and heat barrier between the engine bay and the gearbox tunnel.  Of course the same bolts are also used to secure my gearbox cover.  Credit to Steven, in our local TSSC group, for sharing the idea with me. He's used similar on his Triumph Spitfire and says it works surprising well.

Next up, having learnt of high-torque starter motor woes on the TR-Register forum, I decided to have a quick look inside mine. Like the car's dynamo, it most probably needs a little fresh grease on its bearings (being so close to the radiant heat of the exhaust down-pipes they are particularly susceptible to drying out) . . . 

  

^ the starter motor was still off the car, so it was simply a matter of undoing the two long screws and the wire, to separate the motor from its gear box. The motor itself is remarkably tiny. Thankfully, despite the engine's coolant having been dripping on it, there was nothing but very light surface rust inside. The bearing next to its output shaft, just needed cleaning and I'll try to get some fresh grease in there.  Under the pressed-steel-end-cover (which faces the exhaust down-pipes) there's a tiny little bearing .. and despite a good flushing out with carb' cleaner it still clunks as it turns. The problem then was how to get it off, to replace it ?  . . .

   

The gap between the bearing and the plate is just about 2.5mm, and I know my pullers would be too big, So I thought to make a Heath Robinson one, especially for this job, out of scrap metal.  Fortunately though I found., in my bag of scrap steel, a household bracket, 2.25mm thick, and already slotted to carry the heavy mass of a radiator filled with water. The bearing spindle dropped over that and then with blocks of wood to support the armature.. I was hands free to use a centre punch, on the end of the spindle, to drive it out.  Success !   Of course our excellent and local East Anglia Bearings is closed for the holidays, but I've left a message with the part number (NSK 608Z) to ask if they have or can get one for me.

Moving on.., after yesterday's seasonal good spirits (..just half a bottle) with my old college buddy Chris, this afternoon I was ready to get on with the next task. . .

   

^ Yes, I'd succumbed to temptation and bought a pair of leather covered MX5 seats.  My back is too prone to aching when a car seat is the wrong shape for me and also twisted (as many seem to be ..perhaps thanks to the weight of the clutch). I have tried two standard TR4A seats in the car and neither was any better, so e-bay for the seats (under £200 delivered) and my good friend Rich for a pair of seat runner adapters ..to fit the Mazda seats without having to alter the standard seat bolt holes in the floor. 

As per the instructions supplied - the seat runners of the Mazda need flattening out and the pins sticking down at the front also need chopping off.  As you can see I did this manually.  This is the passenger seat, and the rear end of the inside runner is angled down (top of second photo).  This is just next to the seat belt mounting (on the Mazda seat) and is a pretty tough mounting.  I cut a vee in the side and then managed to also bend that end of the runner flat (..using the grips, I needed an extension bar to bend this one).  Sometime before final fitting, I'll remove the runner and weld the v-slot up again.

   

^ The seat runner adapters are conveniently labeled (this one's PR standing for Passenger-Rear bracket) which as you can see overlaps the body mount. I'll most likely cut the body mounting plate and weld the two plates together.  The second of these photos shows the corner of Mazda seat runner sitting on the standard seat mounting bolt. As it happens the seat wobbled diagonally (this floor is uneven, rather than the seat or adapter bracket), and so a couple of thick body washers lifted the seat runner up enough to clear the bolt head and also leveled the seat to stop it rocking.    That'll work.  The adapters made life very much easier and altogether the task happened pretty quickly.

That MX5 passenger seat is now temporarily fitted. . .

^ To compare

  

^ I've never found this car's original seats attractive.  Indeed (..just my opinion you understand) but out of all the TR models - the TR4A are the ugliest of them all, and being short and stubby - the least comfortable for me.  Conversely, the Mazda seats are too modern looking for a 1960's car, but that aside - they are really good looking, both beautifully shaped and I very much like their white stitching.  I'll re-colour the light grey squabs to black, which will tone them down ..and then I'll be happy with the benefits of having an adjustable backrest and better ergonomics. 

For me ..dainty as I am not, size and fit is really important.  I find the Standard-Triumph seats look bulbous but are actually pretty softly sprung (generally more so than the bolster across its back rest !). The Mazda seats are firm in comparison, but (at least in the passenger space) offered good under-thigh and lateral support. In essence they fit my shape much better.  Despite their differences in shape and firmness - both seats offer a remarkably similar position to sit in. 

Across wise the centreline of the Mazda seat is 310mm from the centreline of the handbrake bracket, whereas the Triumph seat is 10mm more.  In practice I don't think that'll make a jot of difference.  Length wise, the bolt-holes in my Triumph's seat runners had been redrilled to move them back some 30mm.  The Mazda seats and adapter brackets, when pushed right the way back, offer just a very-little more legroom.  And, for my weight and stature, I sit just a tad lower. Those tiny distances work together, and so the bottom line ..for me, is that with a foot rested against the bulkhead step (where the main-dip switch is), my knee clearance to the dashboard centre switch console is 1/2" or so greater ..when sitting in the MX5 seat versus the Standard-Triumph seat. 

Just half-an-inch may seem like nothing worth writing about, but for my getting in and out of the car ..it counts.

Whether the Mazda seats will transmit more harshness of ride remains to be seen.  I think though that their better ergonomics will (for me) lessen back and bum ache over a greater touring distance.  In the meantime I'm quite looking forward to feeling supported around corners when I go for a spin. 

That's it for tonight, so I bid you a pleasant evening and a good holiday.

Pete   

 

[Bfg]

Good evening all..,

This afternoon I reassembled the MX5 driver's seat runners which were stiff and clunky. . .

   

^ after a whole lot of flushing out with petrol and running the sliders back n' forth numerous times to clear the crud and surface rust out of the mechanism, all I could do to lessen the clunking was to run some emery paper over the groves (Left hand photo) to lessen the each hard edge. I only dismantled the one, as the other when flushed out was in better condition.  Once repainted, I lubricated each with a generous dollops of waterproof grease. They now clunk a tiny amount as they roll ..but not enough to warrant any further rework. They are easy to adjust and so good to go.

Again, during this seat's fitting into the car, I found one of the runner's fouled the adapter bracket. Similarly inserting a washer or two under the runner, enabled it to clear.

However, having fitted this seat I found its position still too far forward for a BFG.   As previously said, it's about 1/2" more than the standard seat, but that was too tight for me.  I really need to move the seat back a bit, as much relative to the door opening as to the pedals, as again.. my size 12's have an issue swinging in or getting out passed the door.  You try wearing flippers instead of shoes and you'll see what I mean !

   

^ reviewing the adapter plates, I recognised that I could rotate the front one around by 180 degrees ..and the holes to the floor still aligned and the studs to the seat runners were still square.. but were then positioned 58-60mm further back.  Where the 10mm nuts are seen on the floor, in the Left photo, is where the studs would be with the adapter plate the correct way around.   The photo on the right shows the rear bracket, and because the floor's bolt pattern relative to the MX5 runner studs is the same, rotating that bracket around by 180 degrees has no effect.  

I decide that (for the rear bracket) I'd have to drill new rear floor holes, some 60mm further back (to match the rotated front plate). Doing that would be fine for the inboard one, as it is clear of the main chassis rail and there's enough space to use a sizeable plate under the floor for seat security, but the one closest to the sill then would be over the IRS-chassis.  hey ho . . .

  

^ So I modified the adapter bracket, just on the outside, to position its hole through the floor to where I could reach from the underside and also fit a decent sized body washer.  That works. . .

 

^ the MX5 driver's seat, so fitted, sits 1-1/2" further back, and is now hard against the rear inner wheel arch. That extra length makes things very much better, but there's still another 3/4" to easily be had ..if I locally flatten the curve shape of the wheel arch. There's certainly plenty of space between that and the wheel to do so.  But it'll have to wait until when my hammering will not disturb the neighbours.  

Until then.., I bid you all a very pleasant New Years Eve.

Pete

 

 

 

[Bfg]

 

This afternoon I did just a little more to help my own jack-in-a-box-like syndrome, by altering the inner wheel arch . . .

     

^ with the seat hard back ; I felt and marked with tape as far as my finger would squeeze in. And then peeled back the cover to reshape the metal.  I did it progressively so that the convex bonged inwards to be a concave shape, and that went well, but after refitting the seat again I found that I needed the dint to go 2" further down, to clear the now moved back backseat tilt mechanism.  Hey ho., just an opportunity to do it again tomorrow !   

I also redrilled the front adapter plate to try the seat 1" (25+mm) towards the door.  Now I know that sounds contradictory to the issue I have in getting my big feet passed the open door, and also that my arm is already hard against the door (..and shoulder against the hood frame), but I reasoned that moving the seat outwards would square me up a little better with the offset steering-wheel and pedals, and that in turn would lessen the twist to my back when I'm in the seat. These things are always a compromise and, for the sake of just two holes in the adapter plate, it was worth a try. 

It worked better than I might have hoped insomuch as the improvement was quite apparent. Together with the gain in leg length, the driving position is more comfortable for me.  And for the first time, I feel that I have half-decent leg room under the dash & around Katie's  15" steering wheel

    ...well at least 'half-decent' for someone who's 6ft-5"  . . .

 

    

^ You can see here that although my legs cannot go straight, the under-dash clearances are good and it is a comfortable / relaxed leg position. This is while wearing steel-toe-cap work shoes that have 3/4" thick soles and 1-3/4" heels, and with my left foot resting on the bulkhead step (where the main-dip switch fits).  Conversely, I recall test-driving my friend Mike's TR4A way-back-when (..as previously reported in these pages) and my knee was literally wedged inbetween the underside of the dashboard (alongside the choke lever), the H-frame and the steering wheel.  Admittedly he did have a USB port screwed under the dash pad, which made things lower by about 3/4", but I now have an honest 2-1/2" clearance under there.  He also had MX5 seats fitted, but the seat couldn't be moved back any more on its runners. 

 

^ For comparison, with each seat right the way back.   This space would appear to be practical for me.

And perhaps because the seat's backrest is further back (giving me more room to straighten and get my leg under the steering wheel)  &/or else because I now find it easier to lean back over the driveshaft tunnel) - it feels a little easier to get in and out of the car.  Worthwhile progress

So that's it for tonight.. I hope there's something useful here to anyone else who is in any way 'larger than average'.

Pete

 

[Bfg]

This afternoon I did similar alterations to the passenger-side seat adapter plates, and again to that inner-wheel-arch to bring it in line with the driver's seat. ie., 2-3/8" (60mm) further back.

   

^ In the first instance I drilled the floor adapter plate holes 1" further in, as I had on the driver's side. That was a mistake because the Mazda passenger seat has a different offset to its runners.  So I redrill again the outside floor mounting hole (further in). 1st photo ; The larger nut on the floor is where the seat runner's stud would be - with the adapter plate the correct way around, but I chose to reverse it (..to move the seat back by 60mm). I also wanted to move the seat closer to the door by 1" (25mm).  NB. the inside mounting required a small bracket extension to reach the standard Triumph mounting. 

2nd photo ; the rear adapter plate required two additional small extension plates to suit. The inside floor mounting is again back to the original captive nut in the floor. 

Please NOTE ;  the adapter brackets supplied would suit most owners, just as they are.  It is only because of my size that I sought to modify things to gain the extra length and slightly different offset. The task was easy enough, with the adapter plates giving me a useful head-start.

 

   

^ If at all noticed, I've installed these seats slightly skewed relative to the car's centreline. The front mounting of each seat was moved closer to its door by 1" whereas the rear of each seat only moved out 1/2".  That may seem odd, but the reason was to better align the seat back to the asymmetric footwells & offset pedals, and to allow the seat adjuster mechanism to clear the B-post (second photo). There ought to be just enough space for a piece of vinyl trim in there ! 

 

  

^ The LHS rear inner wheel arch was similarly 'altered' in line with the driver's side, but this time I took the concave further down ..so as to clear these seat's tilt mechanism. . .

I further altered the RHS inner wheel arch ..in line with this, so the driver's seat can now move still further back on its runners.

- - -

And so to conclude this subject of fitting MX5 seats, for the Big & Tall, here are a few final dimensions (..taken on the driver's / RH side) . . .

      

^ From the step on the bulkhead (my left foot rest) to the seat squab is now almost 29" (735mm). And the distance to the corner of the backrest is 48" (122cm).

    

^ measured from the clutch pedal to the seat squab is now some 25-1/2" (65cm), & the distance to the centre-bottom of the backrest is 45" (114cm). Standard spec (see drawing from a road-test at the bottom of this page) shows max length from pedal to seat squab as 22". The distance from there to the backrest is 10", so I've increased the overall pedal to seat backrest squab by 3-1/2".   In turn that means I can better straighten my legs to get them under the steering wheel and dashboard.

The seat squab's centre (width), measured at the rear of the handbrake bracket on the driveshaft tunnel, is 12-3/4" (325mm) from the car's centreline. According to the road-test drawing of the original, I've moved the seat outwards by 3/4", which is a little towards correcting the offset pedals.

 

   

^ with 1/4" spacers under the front seat runner mounts, the clearance between the underside of Katie's  15" steering wheel to the (uncompressed) squab is about 7" (18cm).  And my own knee clearance under the dashboard padding is a now more than 4" (10cm), with my foot resting against the step of the bulkhead, & when wearing thick soled shoes.   NB., When I drove Mike's TR4A, also fitted with MX5 seats, my leg was wedged tight under the dashboard, between the H-frame and the steering wheel. Admittedly he had a double USB port fitted under there which lessened the height by 3/4" but on the other hand I was wearing brogues with 1/4" thick soles  So thanks to moving the seat runners back / the extra legroom - my leg straightens, to similarly give me the equivalent of an additional 3-1/2" inches under dashboard clearance. 

Tomorrow, I'll just be tidying and repainting the brackets and altered inner wheel arches.

Pete

Autocar  - 1965 : TR4A

[Bfg]

Not much to report on, so I'll keep it brief . . .

^ speaks for itself.  This was at 10am, so my working outside was postponed to the afternoon.

   

 

^ amateur restored 22 years ago, so I'm not complaining, but as you can see seam sealer even when over painted with a good quality primer doesn't prevent rust in the corners and panel overlaps.  As I work around the car I'm pulling it out, cleaning out the corners and then painting into them, first with POR-15 or else zinc (cold galvanising) paint, before topcoat.  If then still needs a little seam sealer, I'll do it once that paint has dried.

^ little steps, but still progress.

Bidding you a pleasantly warm evening,

Pete.

 

[Bfg]

Yesterday afternoon ..with work-in-progress on the driver's side, things were looking like this . .

^ Beginning to look more like a restored car now.

Katie's  prior owner(s) had not only used copious amounts of something like 'No more Nails' to secure the felt underlay and carpet, but also numerous self-tapping-screws.  There are possibly 20 or 30 small holes through the floors and, because my welding thin sheet-metal isn't that good, I decided not to weld each up. Instead I've painted the hole's edges and now will use a sealant to close them up.  Having found that my use of C-Tec CT1, as a seam sealer, prevents this white-spirits-based acrylic paint from going off for a month ..on the gearbox cover   I'll find something else !

Last night I tested Everflex - Weather Mate, which is a n-butyl acetate compound to see if that proved any less "inconvenient" !  All night and all day in the warmth of my lounge, and this evening the red is still tacky enough to come off on my fingers. Again I'll find something else ! 

- - -

Today was very damp and equally as dull to be working outside, even under a cover.  That, together with a pulled back, led me to find a job in the warm.  Mind you the job I chose to get on with wasn't possibly the best choice for my back.., don't know really because sometimes I find wrapping it up and just getting on with jobs sometimes just works through it  ..we'll see.  

Anyway's up, this afternoon's exertions were to pull the driver's MX5 seat mechanism out ..and to start cleaning the leather . . .

 

   

^ four bolts hold the seat back adjuster  / tilt mechanism to the seat squabs, and then one screw, on the other side of the seat back, releases the backrest altogether.  Seen on the window sill (second photo) is that mechanism and its two trim covers. Each have overlapping tabs and a cross-head screw or two to hold them in place. The screws are removed and then the covers can be wriggled out over the bolster's padding.

     

^ Seat runners were removed because ultimately I'll be taking the leather cover off the seat to replace a couple of pieces of its foam padding. I had already started cleaning the base pan of its light surface rust and giving it a pretty coat of zinc, so I'll do more of that when the covers are off.  However, having been freshly painted, it then revealed the diamond shaped scuff marks, from the TR's floor as the seat was moved back and forth. The adapter plates are just 1/8" (3mm) thick and even though the car's floors are slightly bowed downwards, it looks as if I might want to spacer the back of the seats up, by just a 1/4". 

Moving on to the task in hand . . .

    

^ The light grey better reflects the light amount of dirt on these seats ..after all they came from a breaker, so who knows what the condition the car was in. 

I'm sure many of you have seen the " remarkable " cleaning properties of bespoke leather and fabric cleaners.  Well - I didn't use them !

 

^ I started with a relatively-dry nail-brush and a tiny dab of washing-up-liquid ..first wipe.  I followed that with a light scrub of kitchen degreaser (..I was introduced to Sgrassatore Universale  ' Formato Professionale '  ..when I was preparing to restore my Citroen Ami-Super in Slovenia, and was so impressed with it that, when I got back to the UK., I ordered 5l. of it from Italy). 

Again I used just a tiny amount on a relatively dry nail-brush.  And because that doesn't froth, I followed it up with soap (..to lift out the degreaser).  Yep, that was really posh stuff too.. from Aldi's basic range.

Each stage was wiped off with an old washing-up sponge and clean warm water.  And to finish off ..just another quick scrub with another tiny dab of washing up liquid. I did this to minimise any residue of soap in the leather. That again was wiped over / rinsed off with the sponge and clean water. 

Throughout I tried to keep things as dry as I could, particularly because the squab's leather is perforated, but on the side bolsters (which have no such perforations) I could let things get a little " frothy man "..   Each stage was wiped dry with an old cotton, clean T-shirt.

^ cleaned with ordinary household / ordinary kitchen products.  No particularly strong chemicals, and soap and washing-up bubbles to wipe the dirt out the leather's grain and perforations.  I went on to clean the rest of the seat, which was then set over a low temperature oil-filled radiator (seat squab inverted and not touching it) to mostly dry for 20 minutes.  The leather now feels very much more supple (compared with the passenger seat which I haven't yet cleaned) and I think would take in leather conditioner quite nicely, but first I want to dye the light grey to black.  I have some shoe dye but it's at least xx years old, so I think I'll pop out to the shops and spend a few shillings to buy some new.  

Just out of curiosity, I do have some foaming upholstery cleaner, which I may try tomorrow, to see if that leaves things any cleaner still.

In the meantime, I bid you a good evening,

Pete

 

[Bfg]

Evening all  ..not a whole lot to report on. After pulling my lower-back last weekend I seemed to be unable to get it warm, and so my going outside to work on the car ground to a halt.  This afternoon I made an effort to kick-start myself into a back-to-work mode.

Having reversed and modified the MX5 seat adapters, and then locally altered the inner wheel-aches ..in order to move these seats back by some 3-1/2" !  ..I needed to clean up and repaint under the wheel arches. . .

   

^ All-in-all I was pleasantly surprised that despite my having rudely inverted this wheel arch's compound-shape inwards.. the pink primer had stayed almost entirely intact. The conifer green (which was the car's original colour) paint appears to be on top of the pink primer, so perhaps the original restorer was going to repaint the car that colour.   However, he sold the car as an unfinished project to Bob Bell, who painted her red.  I guess the thin layer of under-seal was applied directly over the green, some 22 - 24 years ago, and that has now dried out and so tends to not stick as well as it once did.  Naturally, with that many years since restoration, some of the bottom panel edges would now also benefit from a little preventative care & attention.  

But, this afternoon I only got around to attending the driver's side - because I found a bit of welding to do. . .

^ The lower seat belt mounting was one I drilled when I first got the car. This was to relocate the retractable mechanism from immediately behind / under the seat (bolted to the sill), so I could move the seat back a bit.  As you can see I'd fitted it with a large body washer, which I'd intended at some time to tack weld in place. Plans sort of changed direction for a while though last summer, and so while (again) in this space I thought it opportune to get on and do it. 

The crack through the panel immediately, below that mounting, is surely an also-missed MOT failure.!  Not least because I had the TR6 body to chassis mounting added to the suspension bridge ..just the other side of this panel.

Interestingly, or otherwise, the dint to the underside edge of that panel (below and a little to the left of the seat belt's hole) is where the body shell literally used to rest on the previous chassis' spring cup.  I'd spotted this when seeking to correct the excessive wheel-arch to tyre clearance (post chassis-swap). The body is some 10mm higher now.  

Anyway moving on.,

   

^ Fortunately nothing but a little surface rust to clean off.  To reinforce this corner, I cut a plate to fit behind it, and then drilled the panel so I could plug-weld it in situ.  The crack itself was of course seam-welded, and the underside edge of the panel and plate were also stitched together. 

   

^ it was awkward to get around that corner to finish it smoothly, with the suspension bridge in the way, so this will have to do for now.  The large diameter, 2mm thick, body washer for the seat belt mount is now tacked in place (it happens to be of stainless steel ..because that's what i had to hand).  And then after a little more scraping and general cleaning up, including the end-plate of the sill, I splashed over it with POR-15.  Not a very pretty job but once again painted over - it'll keep the wet out and help preserve the car for another 55 years ..or at least until the next phase of rolling-restoration. 

Oh yes., and while i had the POR-15 out I painted the MX5 seat runner adapters, and also the car's original body mount washers  . . .

 

^ The honeysuckle is doing very nicely, and remains constantly in flower.  And the frame for the plastic cover is convenient for hanging nails to dry things on.  I don't know how many of these thick body-washers are used on a TR4A, but here are 18 that were previously on this car ..and had been over painted several times over.  It took me ages to get these back to bare metal and ready to repaint them.  M&T had swapped-them-out for stainless-steel penny washers (fitting two under each fastening).  All very pretty looking, but also wrong ..because two thin penny-washers nothing nearly as rigid as a single twice-as-thick body-washer in bending, and so each penny washer they'd used bowed, and that in turn dished the floor-panel into the rubber body mount.!  

Anyhow, all of those from inside the car are already out, for my cleaning and repainting of those floors, so refitting the fastenings with these thick ones will be no extra work.

That's it for today, and time for a cuppa tea.

Pete

 

[Bfg]

.. This afternoon I got back to crawling under the car.  I wonder if it will ever end ? 

I started off by undoing the eight still-fitted body-chassis bolts, but found the rear four were not tightened up anyway.  The two new mountings I'd had added (duplicating the TR6 ones on the forward suspension bridge) were done up ..but not very tight.  And the end two, at the rear of the chassis outriggers, were just rattling about loose. 

..yet another source of rattle identified.

 

  

^ Oddly, I needed to drill a hole in the bottom of the outrigger to get the socket extension in.  These holes were already in my old chassis, but not in this one ..so I wonder if the rear outriggers had been replaced with new generic sections.  The second photo simply illustrates how to get the bolt,  its washer (not two thin penny washers as again used here, but a proper thick body washer) and socket on / off that extension (..without their dropping down into / along the chassis rail !) 

Anyhow, back to lifting the body .. I just slackened-off the front mounting bolts, and the same on the left-hand-side of the car, to help keep the body-to-chassis alignment, before jacking under the driver's side sill to lift the rear end of that side of the body up.  It raised an inch but then seemed hesitant, so I looked around and at the exhaust to see what else might be holding the body down.  I found the front-right diagonal strut bolt, which I had slackened off was not yet slack enough, and (..like a twit )  also discovered that I'd forgotten to undo the bolt through the centre of the boot floor / spare-wheel well.  Thankfully with my steadily feeling as I lifted - nothing was overly stressed or bent. 

The steering column was sorta interesting though, because I assumed some degree of lift would be possible through flexing its rubber donuts.  I checked to see if it still moved freely and it did, but that was because the spline to the bottom UJ was also loose.  Without the steering wheel on to restrict its movement - it moves up n' down quite freely !   ..Well done M&T's sub-contract mechanic you've once again surpassed yourself.  I'm just very glad you don't work on aircraft or else in a hospital !  

And yet another source of rattle identified.

- - -

Moving on, or rather upwards, the body tub (measured above the trailing arm pivots) raised by about 2".  That was enough for my needs, which was to get in with a power wire brush ..to locally clean up and repaint the underside of the floor,  just above those pivot brackets. . .

    

^ The first inch of Lift off.   I had already started to clean flaky paint and surface rust off that underside slope ..which is why it looks tan coloured, but then I noticed the top plate (a TR6 T-shirt top plate) on the chassis, had a slight gap under it, perhaps 1/8" (3mm) in some places.  That was very odd, until I prised it up (2nd photo, with long screwdriver coming in from the RHS) and discovered that it hadn't been welded.!   Seam sealer is great for keeping running water off, but it's Fxxx useless in terms of structural stiffness.  

Man was I upset.    After all the trouble and expense to (..as I see it) improve this chassis's structure, which included my providing labelled-illustrations and photos, I get this . ! ?    

I have spoken to Mark today, and clearly there was a misunderstanding, as we did at the time discuss their structurally bonding the forward extension of this plate down (..I wanted the T-shirt plate extended as far forward as possible.. to the gearbox mount) ...but that objective might be hampered if there were problems fitting the exhaust. 

In my mind the task would simply be a matter of temporarily clamping the plate in place and attempt to fit the exhaust pipe.  If it went in.. then great the plate could be welded (like it is on the TR6).  If not, then the forward part of the plate could be shortened or else it might be structurally adhered in place.  Nowhere did we discuss the use of seam sealer to just bed the plate on..  It just goes to show how two persons, speaking the same language can understanding things quite differently.  My focus was on the one car, whereas his attention was most likely spread across a host of different business matters all happening at once. 

Again I need to just accept it and move on.  In any case., some might say "whats the big deal ?, the TR4A has a bridge over the chassis instead of that T-shirt plate."  My reply would be along the lines - that it was an upgrade I'd specifically asked for and which had been agreed on, and so that opportunity (from a structural point of view) and the money spent on buying these panels, was wasted - because now its just sitting there on purposefully flexible goo.!  

I'll now deal with it as best I can.  As I cannot get in there with a welder with the body on, and although a body mount does go through this T-shirt panel (on either side of the driveshaft tunnel) I'm now faced with drilling and adding more bolts to secure it.    huff !

- - -

You may also have spotted the lack of rubber strip between the body tub and the chassis rails..   I'd noted while working within the interior, that the floor in certain places would metallically contact the top of the chassis.  A body mounting kit had been bought and I presume fitted, so I expected to see those rubber strips everywhere they should have been, but perhaps missing a couple of lengths on the extra chassis rails I'd specified.   Not so, I haven't investigated further forward but there's certainly none under the back end of the floors nor for the side rails.    

Despite the body tub predominantly sitting on reinforced-rubber body-mount pads, Triumph also saw fit to use rubber strips ..to prevent the possibility of the pressed-steel floors chattering against the chassis ..both irritating rattle(s)   and, as this car previously experienced, exposed metal where paint had chafed away. The rubber strip also serve double duty as anti-drum pads.

Again., yet another possible source of rattle identified.

- - -

In the meantime..., back to the task in hand, very locally cleaning up and treating the underside of the floor . . .

    

^ despite limited and awkward access the underside of the floor panel cleaned up pretty well.. The inside face of the sill (2nd photo) was not so polished, but at least there's not rust holes through it.  This painted over is, at best, a rolling resto' make-do.  Without this effort - I'm guessing it would likely rust-through within a year of all-weather use. Hopefully though, a good coat of paint will keep the wet out and give me a couple or more years of use, before this inner sill will need replacing.  Who knows.. I might have actually started driving the car in that time . ! ?     

   

^ POR-15 is again used as a barrier.   Once that's dry it'll be painted over again, so road water splashes will more easily dry off.  I'll also look in to wheel arch liners.

That's it for today.  Not a good day for myself,  nor indeed for my dear friend Rich.  My sincere condolences to him. 

Pete

 

[Bfg]

Aargh.. Now I'm really seeing RED ! 

. . .

. .

.

  

Have a good evening,

Pete

 

p.s. I tried to give it a stipple finish but it didn't work very well.

 

[Bfg]

I can't believe the psychological difference this flash topcoat of paint, underside the car, has on me.  My attitude is changing from the car being an "acceptably tidy car from 10 -15ft away"  to a car that is being 'nicely restored and is well on the way to being a good example'  ..whereas in truth I'm just tarting her up in places ..where no gentleman ought to look.    Not only that but I'm actually enjoying doing this painting, despite it entailing my crawling around on the floor like a fat pink worm on cold concrete slabs !

hey ho., I hope to enjoy it ..for however long this refreshing attitude lasts . . .

  

^ this afternoon I continued painting the underside of floors and the body tub, wherever I could reach, but particularly where (when lowered again) it will be near-resting on the chassis. These two piccies show the underside of the spare wheel well and the body's step over the rear axle.

   

^ the outside edge of the floor and the inner sill plate, with it's body mounts.  ^^ the underside of the driver's foot well.

  Tbh It's looking in much better condition than I realised.   I'm 65 years old and I'm sure my thinking that is a first  ..with any car I've owned !

Bidding you a very pleasant Sunday evening,

Pete.  

 

 

[Bfg]

Thanks all for your continuing support via 'Like'. 

I am well pleased with this Johnston's red paint.  And with it being spirit rather than water-based I hope it'll stick well and then do its job ..which of course is to help shed road dirt and moisture off.    

This afternoon was pretty darn chilly out.. but lots of break-dancing type spinning around under the back of the car kept that well at bay.  Unfortunately though I had more welding to do, which I'd spotted before - but now was the opportunity. . .

     

^ again the MOT man with the white stick missed this loose body mount, even though it was very much clearer to see from the underside ..because it has a flipping great rust hole through it.!   

I'd spotted this bracket's bottom flange, which under-laps and should be spot welded to the underside of the spare-wheel-well, was adrift when I first investigated why the body was sitting low on the driver's side.   Only in scraping it clearer of underseal & seam sealer today did I realise that one of its side flanges was also loose, from top to bottom, and there were perforations (albeit only dime-sized) through the panel into the wheel-well. Of course, there was a whole lot more cleaning out of seam sealer, rust and crud too.

In the circumstance  ..of the body only being 2" above the chassis ..and so very limit access between the mount and the chassis rail for cutting or grinding tools, I managed to tear the rusted underlapping flange off ..back to the rust hole, and then set out to replace that with new. 

^ Inside the spare wheel.  The upward ones follow the run of the original spot welds.   I drilled through-holes to be plugged with weld, from both sides, and then used a couple of self-tapping screws to hold the body-mount-bracket tight to the side of the well.  The through-holes in the floor are likewise to plug-weld the bracket's new bottom flange on. The set screw with washer simply held it in place for welding.

   

^ Work-in-progress.  Aside from the plug welds I added a few more tacks around the outsides of each flange.

All in all, that may have seemed a five-minute job, but from first to last of these piccies took me 3-hours.! 

   

^ I used copious amounts of zinc spray-paint inside the bracket and into the edges, let that dry and slapped-on the red.  It wasn't pretty before so I expected little else when I was done.   ..but at least it's secure again.  NB. the shadow / bottom corners (both front & back) were deliberately not closed with seam welding ..so road water inside the bracket might drain out.  Oddly, that bracket is wide open to spray off the tyres.  The inside plug welds linished off nicely. The last remaining perforation is plated over from the wheel-arch side, so now it's well flooded with zinc and paint, I'll simply seal over it on the inside as I redo the bottom inside-corner seam.

- - -

While at this end of the car with the welder . . .

   

^ I did this same task with my previous, also bright red, '66 S-type Jag.  It is of course the hole in the middle of the spare wheel well, through which the tie-down hook attaches to the chassis. As such I guess it ought to be considered a body mount too.  In any case I don't want a split-edged hole, so I welded a disc to its underside.  Just hope I've got this hole in about the right position.! 

 

^ I then added another very large washer to the inside. Thereafter lots more zinc and a splash of colour. 

. . . It took me all afternoon to do just those two jobs ..so I could never make a living doing this professionally.  But who knows, perhaps I've eliminated another two sources of rattle ?

Bidding you a good evening with toasty warm toes .. quite unlike mine at this moment !

Pete.

 

[Bfg]

  

After a couple of days off, this afternoon I did a little pottering around rather than real work.  Thought I'd deal with the T-shirt plate.

 

On 1/14/2022 at 11:23 PM, Bfg said:

..to locally clean up and repaint the underside of the floor,  just above those pivot brackets. . .

    

^ The first inch of Lift off.   I had already started to clean flaky paint and surface rust off that underside slope ..which is why it looks tan coloured, but then I noticed the top plate (a TR6 T-shirt top plate) on the chassis, had a slight gap under it, perhaps 1/8" (3mm) in some places.  That was very odd, until I prised it up (2nd photo, with long screwdriver coming in from the RHS) and discovered that it hadn't been welded.!  

. . .

    . .  I'll now deal with it as best I can.  As I cannot get in there with a welder with the body on, and although a body mount does go through this T-shirt panel (on either side of the driveshaft tunnel) I'm now faced with drilling and adding more bolts to secure it. 

Whether or not anyone else thinks having the top (TR6) T-shirt plate on a TR4A chassis is worth the bother is not really the issue - It's something I wanted as part of the chassis mods., so this afternoon I set to bolting it in place. . .

^ first up I decided to drill and tap into the chassis, where the TR5 & 6 have their seat belt mounting hole.  The T-shirt plate was drilled to just clear a 5/16" UNF bolt, and then the chassis was drilled and tapped for that bolt. Although there's only a couple of threads into that thickness of chassis - any movement here, between the T-shirt plate and the chassis, would be in shear ..and so that bolt needs to be a good fit but not that tight.  With that on either side, plus the standard TR4A body mount alongside the rear tunnel gives four fastenings for the plate, and so I added a couple more ..in the back inside corner of the floors  . . .

 

 ^ Drilling into the rear corner, though to the chassis, not only allows the T-shirt plate to be clamped under it, but it is also where there is a corner gusset reinforcement (to the rail onto which the trailing-arm-brackets are mounted).  In short this means - there's twice the thickness of steel to tap those bolt threads into. 

Furthermore and rather importantly ..to my way of thinking . . .

^ The new inside-bottom-corner mounts tie in nicely with the TR6 style chassis to body mounts, I specifically had added on the step next to the inner arches. On the chassis these body mounts are  immediately adjacent to the suspension's spring hangers. The new inside-bottom-corner mounts also offer load-path-continuity along the rear chassis rail to the sill's rear body mounts.  All together they add cross-bracing (signified by blue lines) of the body-tub combined with chassis, that was absent from the original.  

Possibly this helps clarify the significance of the T-shirt plate and why I required for it to be secure.

OK.,  I'll close the door on the way out. . .

Pete 

 

[Bfg]

Just over a week later and I'm still wrestling with motivation, however 'upset' and poor health (..and yes they are related) have slowed progress..  Still as always ; smalls steps in the right direct are much better than a leap or two backwards (..but more of that later !). 

Having previously worked from the RHS rear wheel-arch, back to the body mount, then forward along the near-side's sill, and across under the spare wheel well.., the delectation to now be relished was to continue with much the same on the LHS (nearside) of the car.  Again my objective was to clean up, to check, and to hold-in-check the condition of the underside of the body tub. Again starting under the (LHS) rear wheel arch. . .

 

^ This is the corner of the inner wheel-arch where it steps over the rear axle / suspension, and like the RHS of the car the thin metal panel of the rounded corner had failed. On the RHS., the plate had crack through, whereas on this side it had buckled and was just beginning to crack.  Note the vicinity of the new (TR6 style) body mount immediately adjacent to this corner.  Again I made a thicker doubler plate to fit behind the original corner. Holes are of course for its plug welding.   BTW., the silver paint on the inner wheel-arch inverted bulge (to allow the seat to move 3-1/2" further back) is aerosol zinc spray.  This is useful for spraying into any cricks & crannies, for seeing more clearly into corners, and of course to prevent ones lungs going rusty ..for years after you're dead !

The rear body mount on this side had already been welded up by a prior owner in much the same way as I did it on the RHS.  And again I added a large thick reinforcement washer to this side for through-bolting the recoil seat belt to.  NB. measured and drilled from the inside of the car, this hole is 10mm further back from the step's edge, because the mounting position of the recoil mechanism is asymmetric. 

- - -

Moving forward was where my discomfort of working on cold paving slabs, in cleaning off the crud and any loose under-seal, as well as my having to weld under a wheel-arch.. turned to my upset.  Having paid a whole lot of money to a "concourse winning restoration body shop" (M&T Classics) to rebuild Katie's  LHS sill, and at the same time to improve that side's rear door gap..  after clearing away the goop (aka ; seam sealer ) I was faced with this . . .

    

^ work in progress, as you can see the professionals goop is still over the bottom flange, but the end cap not being attached to the downturn of the floor was (.. I thought) inexcusable. 

For cost reasons, I opted not to have the sill finished in body paint by M&T., but the agreement was that it would be prepared and ready "in (I presumed in a good-quality) primer ready to paint".  That was clearly not what I was seeing.  The second photo more clearly shows how the old outer-sill was cut off through the down-turned flange of the floor, and then a new plate has been tacked in place to restore its dimension to the bottom.  Unfortunately the new plate wasn't quite tall enough, so its spot welding along the bottom became edge tacks (which structurally are not the same).  And, as you can see, its bottom edge didn't come down quite far enough and then slightly raised towards the front.

  

^ further forward, as it was.. with no primer but a smear of goop, and yet also clearly evident of their stitch welding (from the outside before the outer sill was fitted) of the extended downturn flange - having blistered the original paint and under-seal away.  This is a shameful example of British workmanship.. with rust initiated from day one.   I hadn't appreciated that despite having paid extra for wax-oil injection - it didn't include the sill. 

2nd photo, after wire brushing. Clearly the flange isn't quite deep enough, in fact for most of the sills length its short by 1/4" (6mm) with 5/16" (8mm) or more in some places. That does not seem a lot, but because the bottom flange of the repro outer-sill-panel is not quite 1/2" (12mm), that inside edge was where spot or plug welds ought to have been.  So instead it's been edge-tacked. Typically these are 1-1/4" to 1-/1/2" (30 - 38mm) apart.  

I'm no authority but my understanding was that DVLA requires welding of structural areas (ie., within 30cm of a body mount) to be of equal specification as original (accepting plugs in lieu of spot welds) or else continuous - so I wouldn't have thought this would pass an MOT.  And yet I have the piece of paper to say that it did.!

For reference, you might compare the (above) work by M&T, with a post from Stuart (last June) where he shows how it ought to be done   < here > . . .  

 

^ Lovely job Stuart, and using a NOS Stanpart panel for better fit.  I'm sure the additional cost of that was saved in quicker fitting and less finishing labour costs.  I don't know what the spot welding is in the inside of the end cap though.

 Moving to the front ..of Katie's  newly rebuilt sill, and things get no better . . .

   

^ More goop, which when wire brushed out revealed no weld between the bulkhead and the sill's end cap.  (NB the bulkhead repair appears old / done by a previous owner).  I simply cannot understand why the welder should not have done this, while he was already here with his welder.  

For the time being I have welded the end caps, front and rear.  But before going further  I'm in a quandary as to whether I should do more to improve what's been done along the inside and bottom edge, or else to remove the outer sill and the new down-turned flange and to rebuild them, or to just leave it as is ?   The outer sill visually aligns well from the side view,  but that panel's fit or incorrect shape means the bottom-relief of the wings (front and rear, which steps out from the bottom of the door line) now sit 3/8" 10mm wider than the sill (..just seen in light-yellow colour primer to the right of the above photo).  Before the car went to Wolverhampton, the old outer sill was a decent shape between these panels, it was only the rear door gap which was wrong.  Now I seem to have paid a huge amount of money to replace one problem with another.  

When I spoke to Mark about this panel alignment (..before I noted the inadequate welding) he said, and I paraphrase.. "the front and rear wings were probably repro and so the alignment would never be great, and that ..had they been painting the sill, they would have first lead-loaded the panel to correct its shape".  3/8" thick lead weighting down the length of one sill, huh !   I didn't argue the matter that I'd expected the agreed 'in primer ready for paint'.

- - -

And now for something completely different . . .

While under the car getting myself filthy, but nevertheless making slow but steady progress cleaning up fraying paint edges and otherwise checking that things were pretty much as they were supposed to be, I spotted this ..

^ Note the lower wishbone mountings.  I couldn't believe my eyes. The chassis was sold as upgraded "with all the usual strengthening mods done".  And Katie's  suspension was removed, and cleaned up before being swapped from the old chassis to this one, and yet despite the bolt holes being there (and that M&T have a huge stock of TR parts on their shelves) the lower wishbone brackets had not been swapped for two-stud ones.  Not even decent sized backing plates or washers. And to then to have reused the nyloc nuts ? 

From a restoration company that professes to be TR specialist, Is it not professional-incompetence to not even ask the customer if he would want these changed.?  After all, even to a cheapskate - what is the cost of a set of used 2-stud TR6 brackets and eight new nylocs ?  ...after spending such a huge amount of money to have the chassis upgraded, so the car would be safe.  If I said no, then be it upon my head, but them to say nothing, and for the sake of £30 (retail) to not swap those brackets . . . is unbelievable  

It gets even better though . . .

^ on the left hand side, rear lower wishbone mount - this chassis had already had one of the brackets ripped out.  The plate welded over the top of the hole has two stud holes.  And Mark knew and saw this himself, because he hand-painted this chassis with the POR-15 I'd supplied.

As an engineer I consider patching over the top of a ripped-out plate to be very poor practice.  Much better to cut out the damage and to inspect everything very closely to see if there are any hairline cracks or other damage that wouldn't otherwise be apparent.  But I can appreciate that many an unschooled mechanic might weld a similar thickness of plate over the top and think that must be as strong as it was.  

And with honest regard for the few who do think beyond their immediate eye line, the typical unschooled mechanic misses the consequences. . .

   

^ with a plate slapped onto the face of just one chassis mounting, the wishbone bush bracket sits 1/8" further out, and so it's no longer in axial alignment with the front wishbone bush.  And that twist of the lower wishbone would take its wheel hub mounting / king-pin further forward, which in turn effects the castor angle. This might be compensated by packing out the front bush mounting, but then does that still work with the wheel's camber.?  

As it is this side of the suspension has be reassembled with no packing / spacer(s) in the front bush bracket, so (likewise twisted) each bush will be prone to accelerated wear.  Conversely the RHS of the car has two spacers (each 1/16" ?) under both brackets - which I gather is usual.    

As I've now been working on the gearbox or under the car pretty consistently since she came back in July, I'm rather very upset that the task list has again been added to.    My objective was to get the underside of the body shell painted and the body mounts all back in place by the end of January, so that I might get back to putting the car's interior in, and then get on with fitting the surrey top.  But now I'm faced with both the sill and with replacing the wishbone brackets.  I've never done the job, but I'm certain it'll not be just-a-five-minute-job ..when working outside in February.

I've tried to be very understanding of Mark and how sloppy mechanical practices could slip by unnoticed by him, but following the chassis T-shirt plate being gooped-on rather than welded, failed body mounts, such body-shop issues as the sill, and now being faced with more working under the car / the front suspension - I feel as if I've been caught by my short and curlies again.  I've been trying for the past 12 months to accept a more Stoic / understanding attitude ..but tbh the pent-up upset / frustration is have a noticeable effect on my health.  I don't know what to do about these conflicts, so I bottle things up and get on with what I can. . .

   

^ The welding on top was not mine, nor the piece of angle iron.  I just cleaned the goop out and welded down the downturn to end cap joint, before flooding everything with zinc ..and then the red.  It's presently a goop-free zone !   The wings will have to come off at sometime to keep their condition in check, but I'm hoping not to do that this winter.

^ until I decide what to do, I've again sprayed crevices with zinc and brushed in the red.  I have absolutely no problem with tearing that paint off again if and when I choose to do something more with this 'issue'.  It may seem illogical to leave it, but for the meantime - I just need to move on. 

  

^ Similarly with with the front of the sill, the front body mounts, all the edges around the inner arches, which restored 22+ years ago were in remarkably very good condition, but now in need of a little TLC ..to help keep the damp out.

The front valance panel had a fixing screw missing, one along the top of the RHS front wing likewise, and then also the three wing to A-post fastenings were left out too. 

And so it goes on.. I am so (physically) tired.

- - -

Progress yes, but two leaps backwards as well.

I bid you warmth in your home, good fare on the table, and a peaceful state of mind.

Pete.

 

[Dobloseven]

Been following this very well written thread with interest. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I can't help thinking you'll not be truly happy unless you do everything possible yourself. You've obviously got a huge amount of knowledge and experience. You've designed cars and run your own car company, things few others have done. It's hugely frustrating when others don't seem able to grasp what one is trying to achieve and disregard instructions. Also can't help wondering if the concours restoration specialist has been happily using the wrong spacers and omitting to weld seams etc. for years and nobody has said anything. Same with the "gearbox specialist". How often have they used the wrong bolts, left gaskets out etc? Anyway I know you'll get there eventually, if you want a job doing right and all that.... 

[Bfg]

1 hour ago, Dobloseven said:

Been following this very well written thread with interest. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I can't help thinking you'll not be truly happy unless you do everything possible yourself. You've obviously got a huge amount of knowledge and experience. You've designed cars and run your own car company, things few others have done. It's hugely frustrating when others don't seem able to grasp what one is trying to achieve and disregard instructions.

 

Thank you., I believe you are probably right, about needing to do everything myself.  Indeed this is why I was determined to buy a complete basket-case project, where I knew it all needed redoing ..then I would systematically work through everything in a pragmatic manner.  But then I lost my home ..with garden & garage, and at much the same time realised that I'm now too old, and still with a number other unfinished projects, to take on yet another five-year restoration. 

So with even further financial constraints and yet still determined to realise-the-dream before I was too old - I shopped around and bought the best 'roadworthy' example I could afford. My astounding naivety with regard to the true nature of even gentile human beings, more so than rose-tinted-glasses, spotlighted me as the fool. 

By the time I noted the condition of the old chassis, and that the body needed lifting off - I had moved to a small apartment and no space / facilities to do that task.  I was caught.  

Still, in all likelihood, the gearbox issues would have happened if I'd taken it in to the expert myself.  That was just shit, which in this case was compounded by an totally incompetent fitter. 

The ride-height / suspension adjustment / tracking and camber was just incompetence.  I hadn't realised but M&T was primarily a body-restoration business. And they had taken on more than they knew how to do.  In retrospect I was lucky not to have had a crash driving the car like that. 

As an aside - it's ironic how even even the very successful and wealthy &/or the super-smart (neither of which category I fit into ) will rely on a mechanic to work on their high performance classic car, without ever having checked their professional credentials.!     Think about it, we each rely on a garage's prior reputation  or sale's patter ..and then simply trust them with our and our loved one's lives - to ensure that each and every employee or subcontractor is up to par and strict quality-checks are in place. Then 10 minute's later we are driving through one Britain's most notorious motorway junctions surrounded by tonnes of HGV's being hassled by white van delivery drivers.

The quality of M&T Classic's  sill rebuild though was an unexpected shock. I suspect that rework led to project-overrun, which led to Mark not being there, and/or then not watching that the job was done properly.

The suspension brackets may simply be a mistake that Mark thought had been swapped out and yet (..that fitter again) hadn't.  I still don't believe Mark is malicious or deceitful, it's just that one or two employees lack integrity and he lacks the management skills and/or quality-assurance checks to correct that.  I have spoken to him and, as a friend, warned him - that he will loose his business and much more, if or when such workmanship is the cause of an accident involving a very wealthy client.  Of course nobody believes it ..until it's too late.

I cannot in good conscious sell what I believe to be an unsafe car. And I cannot afford to throw it away. So I now have no choice but to work through the issues I find. And yet unless I stop finding other jobs, it'll never get finished.  Being compelled to work outside every day throughout February & March is no longer an enjoyable hobby, and that together with feeling ripped-off &/or frustrated by the turn of events is making me ill.  Stoicism and sensible rationale just seem to bottle things up inside. That's a psychological battle I still have to deal with.   

But thank you still for your encouragement and support.

Have a good weekend

Pete.

 

[Dobloseven]

Thanks for taking my comments in the way I hoped you would. Look on the bright side, while you're under the car,at least you're not watching daytime television! 

[Mally]

Doblo is correct.

Your own workmanship is fields ahead of most, as was demonstrated earlier in your Sunbeam threads.  It also takes you ages, but time is nothing to you.

You will never be fully satisfied with everything another person has done.

This in itself is no bad thing, but can reflect badly on others with different (reduced) standards to yourself.

Profit has to be made, and corners may be cut to do it.

I used to build Commercial vehicles. The Trucks we built for the Shows, bore little resemblance to the trucks we sent down the line every day.

 

 

[mitsisigma01]

Hi Pete , I'm still following this thread , it's a shit that so called restorers have fkd up so many things ,did you get anywhere with a refund ....

I've just found another load of TRaction magazines if you are still reading them . They range from 1994 up to 2007 not the full lot but probably some of the gaps from the last lot I gave you.

Please let me know asap 

Cheers

[Bfg]

On 1/30/2022 at 12:46 PM, Mally said:

Doblo is correct.

Your own workmanship is fields ahead of most, as was demonstrated earlier in your Sunbeam threads.  It also takes you ages, but time is nothing to you.

You will never be fully satisfied with everything another person has done.

This in itself is no bad thing, but can reflect badly on others with different (reduced) standards to yourself.

Profit has to be made, and corners may be cut to do it.

I used to build Commercial vehicles. The Trucks we built for the Shows, bore little resemblance to the trucks we sent down the line every day.

 

Time is everything to me.  That happens at my age ..you suddenly start counting down, as you know that the dream or bucket-list is either going to happen soon or else it's never likely to. 

Otherwise yes I agree.     ..although I'll continue to cuss about having to crawl under the car to correct things - I just have to accept that things which might, and perhaps even ought to, be flagged or else should have been done, were simply not.  'Why' is almost irrelevant to me, that is a matter for Mark to address, should he feel the need to do so. 

Unless one has absolutely everything down in writing and signed by both parties, the client to service-provider emails and face-to-face discussions & telephone conversations amounts to nothing more than "a sort-of-understanding"  ..which may interpreted in different ways to according to one's perspective.  Thankfully, although frustrating, no harm was done by way of road-accident, nor injury, nor even further damage to the vehicle.    

As as design-engineering professional in the automotive and then marine industries, I was subject to professional ethics & due diligence, whereby if I was even concerned about the safety of the item I was working on (whether or not I was responsible for those aspects of the design) I was expected, nay obliged, to bring my concerns to the manager or a Director's attention.  If it was a potentially very serious matter - then I'd make sure there was a paper trail, which aside from covering my own donkey.. also encouraged the Manager to pass that concern upwards to cover his !  When working on design of seriously-offshore sailing vessels there were many instances where vessel and life might be put at risk (in the Southern oceans even large sailing yachts can roll over, loose their mast and otherwise become awash).   Still, I know as a matter of fact that, many of those concerns were never acted upon, as was evident in the keel dropping off a certain 82ft Oyster yacht ..and the vessel quickly sinking.   So even in that white-collar-professional environment the system didn't work (..thankfully there are better procedures in the aircraft industry !). 

Very likely, because I had a long career of such responsibility and working to such ethics, my expectations of a farm-building restoration company were unreasonable, not least because my 'understanding' and theirs were as if in a different language. 

I simply have to accept it, try to learn from the experience, and to move on. 

But that doesn't mean I won't get pretty verbal now and then.!  Yesterday I was again contorting my ungainly and aged bulk underneath to wield the potentially lethal cutting-disk grinder (I find it very intimidating ), and then to be laying under the sometimes splattering weld ..so was my language reflected not the sweet and full of the joys of springtime.

^ In setting the body back down onto its mounts, I'd discovered was that the rear exhaust bracket was sitting too high and so the body tub (actually the spare wheel well) was resting upon it.  With the body jacked up, but still less than 3/4" above it, and with working around the exhaust silencer, it either had to be reduced in height or else removed.  Lessening its height wouldn't work for the bolt to the exhaust strap and so I decided to cut that bracket off ..which was welded to the top of the cross tube ..

   

^ Awkward little bracket and vicious high speed grinder (not to mention the white hot sparks !)

  

^ same bracket reshaped to be 3/8" (10mm) lower, and then re-welded in place.

^ repainted with POR-15 and the red underside of the body also touched up.  

The other side was easier because it had been welded on at a cock . . .

  

^ On this side the rear inside corner of the bracket was digging in, so I simply cut that corner off, cleaned things up and repainted it.

Another 5-miute job done ..that literally took me 2 hours.

- - -

Next job was the bottom LHS rear wing fastening to the sill.

Its new spire clip was snapped into pieces. With a strong magnet and small screwdriver I managed to retrieve three of its bits out. I think one piece is still inside. I'll be painting and then wax-oiling within the sill so that should stop it rattling.  I cleaned up an old but good spire clip to replace it and repainted that with zinc, but when I came to fit it discovered it would not fit . . .

^ just inside the round screw hole you'll see the sill's end cap. The distance between this and the hole is insufficient to get a clip in there and for it sit flat.  Of course, without it sitting flat, then when the body screw is tightened.. the clip snaps.  I don't yet know how to deal with this, particularly as the screw hole needs if anything to go backwards, even closer to the sill's end cap. 

Hey ho, such fun we have.

Pete

 

p.s. I bent the inside end of a replacement spire clip further back on itself, so the tread would get closer to the inside of the sill's end-plate. I used needle / long-nose vice grips to do that. The part of the tread nearest the double-back snapped off when I put the screw in, but because the bit I'd curled back reduced the hole size.. it works.   

  

^ horribly crude, but I'll come back to it another time.

Cheers, Pete.

 

[Bfg]

On 1/31/2022 at 2:04 PM, mitsisigma01 said:

Hi Pete , I'm still following this thread , it's a shit that so called restorers have fkd up so many things ,did you get anywhere with a refund ....

I've just found another load of TRaction magazines if you are still reading them . They range from 1994 up to 2007 not the full lot but probably some of the gaps from the last lot I gave you.

Please let me know asap 

Cheers

Hi Dave,

As you'll read above I'm not seeking recompense, even if I think I shouldn't have paid for some of the work done.  It'll be more stress than I need or can handle right now, to dispute it.  The advice I've taken is that litigation would cost me dearly, with one independent-consultant-engineering-expert arguing against another ..and in the end only those 'professionals' would come out any the better off. 

Thanks for the offer of the TR magazines, but I'll decline if you don't mind.  I had and enjoyed the others when I lived in a house with space to spare and my life was finally getting into a quiet but productive routine.  That was a past life ! 

Now, I have no space to spare and because each of my projects have so vastly over-run I have very little spare time when my tired old peepers are awake enough to want to read.   One day this year I might actually get to drive and enjoy this TR., otherwise.. well.., I'll have no further interest in TR's  as I will have flogged it to buy a MX5 or something similar that works.!  

Cheers,

Pete.

[Mally]

You mention Aircraft.

I've  built sections of planes, and yes  indeed they are all alike, as best as can be, and with all deviations agreed and logged.

I've also built a copy of your Falcon, to a much lower specification than you. Cost me £400 on the road. I'm not sure how much yours were on the road at the time, but I'd estimate iro £2,500?

I feel that if you had given them an open cheque (which some do) you are well within your rights to complain about the smallest error, but working to a fixed price will result in even more deviations than I used to achieve.

[Bfg]

Just a short report this evening, mostly because I spent part of the day catching up with putting things back together, like refastening the offside front wing where I had its lower screws out ..to paint into the crevices, and of course re-hanging the exhaust silencer and adjusting its clamps so the pipe doesn't clonk the tunnel.

My task this afternoon was to get on with refitting the body to the chassis, which is again sitting on four wheels ..albeit still on the ramps so I can crawl under the car.  

   

^ fussy as I am, I didn't like the main body mounts now each being three layers of relatively soft rubber. There were no mid-layer plates in those mounts, and the new rubber is without reinforcement mesh ..so when compressed its thickness easily squashes down as the rubber tries to squidge out the sides ..as is evident in the shape of their holes (second photo) ..after just 6-months / 250miles.  Katie's  old chassis showed clear evidence of where the body and chassis had chafed together - locally taking the paint off each, and undoubtedly adding to the squeaks, rattles and the humdrum of vibration type noises.

These are not isolation body mounts ( Isolastic type), but if I understand the design correctly - their rubber's give is to accommodate disparities in angle &/or surface shape in the bracket on the sill / body panel and the chassis.  2-3mm is thick enough to do that.  The soft rubber is also a weather seal inbetween the underside of the car and its interior.  Sandwiched Inbetween these two rubber 'gaskets' would be spacer(s) ..I'm guessing in steel. That's not what I have now nor what I had previously. 

Rather than refit whatever there was (seemingly numerous horseshoe shaped spacers), I opted to measure again . . .

   

^ I set the body on the chassis without any  mounts in place. Instead it sat on six little packing pieces of 3mm thick hardboard. These were placed on the chassis just under the edge of the bulkhead, and again on the corner-reinforcement-plates at either end of both trailing-arm chassis rails. The doors gaps are as they were and the doors open and close well ..now that the nearside anti-burst plate is lubricated !  Measuring and recording (2nd photo below) each body mount / the gap between the body and the chassis, I could then determine what packing was actually needed.

  

^ I had lots of rubber & spacers parts to choose from, as Mark was very good in returning the bits taken off the car, when replaced with new.  The old body mounts were all (fabric) reinforced rubber and generally a tad thicker than the new so I could select what & where was to be fitted.  

I started with loosely fitting the two front mounts (one on either side of the radiator) and then those at the end of each rear outrigger. Even with loose bolts, those helped keep the alignment square. But before fitting the central body tub's mounts I wanted to fit some rubber strip under the floors.  M&T seemed to have forgotten them, even though a roll of the rubber appears in one of Mark's photos.  Nevertheless I had a roll of 2mm thk x 30mm wide neoprene rubber which although pretty soft I felt would do the job well. 

^ my old chassis is typical of many photos I've seen (as a body is lifted off) where the body-chassis mounting strips are only rested upon by the deeper pressing of the floor, and then only occasionally.  So again, me being me, I did things my own way. . .

  

^ short strips being cut to fit under the pressings where they cross over the chassis rails. Doing this under the car ..as evening turned to darkness, and feeding the sticky-backed neoprene in the 3/4" gap between the body and chassis didn't make it a quick operation, but the fiddling around to peel the backing paper off each little length took me longer than fitting them.! 

An extra pair of hands would have been helpful to un-peel the backing and, only then, to cut each length. Then of course to pass them down to you under the car. As indeed would have marking the underside of the body tub (where the chassis sits) and to do all this .. before the body was fitted.  Including sorting thicknesses and now having loose-fitted the central mounting rubbers, the task took me 2 hours ..for one side.

I've lowered the body now and these strips will I think work well.  None of the mounting bolts are screwed in more than a few threads (because I need to lift the near side floor tomorrow to do the same), but already the tin-plate floor sounds very much duller.  Even though the strips barely touch the chassis. clearly it is cushioned. My hope is that with the extra surface area, of these strips versus the original short lengths fitted in just a few places, it'll stand up to wear pretty well. Time will tell.

That's it for tonight, so I bid you a pleasant evening.

Pete.

 

[Bfg]

  

On 2/4/2022 at 7:32 PM, Nigel C said:

Ha, I got a beany/woolly hat for Christmas that has a flat type LED torch fitted to the front of it and can be detached for washing ( the hat that is!)

Didn't know they existed, but like the idea, so I ordered one on Saturday - cheers Nigel.

 

On 2/3/2022 at 11:01 PM, Nigel C said:

I use quite a lot of double sided materials and sometimes its easier to peel the backing off, move it along 10mm and put back on again, this way you get a tab at one end to re-peel under more difficult circumstances.

Thanks again Nigel, prompted by this.. I pre-peeled the backing paper off the sticky-back neoprene I'm using . . .

   

^ Although the suggestion was to peel the backing paper and move it along a little, I peeled it off for a couple of foot, and moved it over to one side just a couple of mm (if you'll excuse my mix of measuring units) before  cutting each to size and with its slant (that's quickly done because I use pieces cut to left or right handed length as templates to save measuring each).  So obvious (in retrospect) and then so quick to do the peeling this way.   

Should it be of interest to anyone, the second photo shows the total amount of 2mm x 30mm neoprene strip I used ..under just one side of the body tub. 

On Sunday, I added these to the passenger side floor, so these pads are now across each  chassis rail where the pressed indent of the floors cross them.  I've also fitted the body-mount pads on that side too.  But for spacing the two diagonal braces in the engine bay, the body is now almost ready to bolt down. I've bought 5/16" plain shank bolts for most of the mounts as I'm really not keen on set-screws threads through rubber &/or spacers. That's just a peculiarity of mine ..as it probably matters not one iota.    

Before bolting it down I remembered that I had not cleaned out and painted deep into the first sill-body-mount I'd encountered ..that was the one just forward of the RH trailing arm. So this afternoon I did that, and then while laying down in that corner released the front and bottom edge of that rear wing to clean up and paint the end of the sill covered by that wing.

Is it better not to know ?  . . .

      

^ First impressions, was of rust-bubbled-paint on the sill, near the front edge of the wing (seen here with that paint scraped off with a favourite old chisel), but also just behind this was a hole through the outer sill panel ..through which the end-cap could be seen.  I didn't know about this, never-the-less the weather was great and I'm practicing a happier state of mind (..yeah I know, I need a whole lot of practice !  )   Second photo shows how it looked after power wire brushing + flapper wheel.  That'll not do.

^ I made a repair plate to tuck inside the now-trimmed-back-to solid-edge, with holes ready drilled for plug welding.  Zinc spray paint included copious amounts inside the sill cavity. 

^ plug welding with edge tacks worked well, and the inside of the end cap, as seen from within the wheel-arch is still tidy.  Where the repair is hidden under the bottom edge of the wing, and for a "good n' solid driver" I don't feel the need to dress it further.  I through drilled the round hole, for the spire clip fastening, and zinc sprayed into that edge too, let it dry ..and then slapped red paint all over. 

Job done, but for refastening of the rear wing and bottom stainless trim. So hopefully tomorrow I'll get Katie's  body bolted on again. 

Until then, I bid you a very pleasant evening.

Pete.

  

[Bfg]

  Body mounts . . .

On 2/3/2022 at 9:39 PM, Bfg said:

Just a short report this evening, mostly because I spent part of the day catching up with putting things back together, like refastening the offside front wing where I had its lower screws out ..to paint into the crevices, and of course re-hanging the exhaust silencer and adjusting its clamps so the pipe doesn't clonk the tunnel.

My task this afternoon was to get on with refitting the body to the chassis, which is again sitting on four wheels ..albeit still on the ramps so I can crawl under the car.  

   

^ fussy as I am, I didn't like the main body mounts now each being three layers of relatively soft rubber. There were no mid-layer plates in those mounts, and the new rubber is without reinforcement mesh ..so when compressed its thickness easily squashes down as the rubber tries to squidge out the sides ..as is evident in the shape of their holes (second photo) ..after just 6-months / 250miles.  Katie's  old chassis showed clear evidence of where the body and chassis had chafed together - locally taking the paint off each, and undoubtedly adding to the squeaks, rattles and the humdrum of vibration type noises.

These are not isolation body mounts ( Isolastic type), but if I understand the design correctly - their rubber's give is to accommodate disparities in angle &/or surface shape in the bracket on the sill / body panel and the chassis.  2-3mm is thick enough to do that.  The soft rubber is also a weather seal inbetween the underside of the car and its interior.  Sandwiched Inbetween these two rubber 'gaskets' would be spacer(s) ..I'm guessing in steel. That's not what I have now nor what I had previously. 

Rather than refit whatever there was (seemingly numerous horseshoe shaped spacers), I opted to measure again . . .

   

^ I set the body on the chassis without any  mounts in place. Instead it sat on six little packing pieces of 3mm thick hardboard. These were placed on the chassis just under the edge of the bulkhead, and again on the corner-reinforcement-plates at either end of both trailing-arm chassis rails. The doors gaps are as they were, and the doors open and close well ..now that the nearside anti-burst plate is lubricated !  Measuring and recording (2nd photo below) each body mount / the gap between the body and the chassis, I could then determine what packing was actually needed.

  

^ I had lots of rubber & spacers parts to choose from, as Mark was very good in returning the bits taken off the car, when replaced with new.  The old body mounts were all (fabric) reinforced rubber and generally a tad thicker than the new so I could select what & where was to be fitted.  

I started with loosely fitting the two front mounts (one on either side of the radiator) and then those at the end of each rear outrigger. Even with loose bolts, those helped keep the alignment square. But before fitting the central body tub's mounts, I wanted to fit some rubber strip under the floors.  M&T seemed to have forgotten them, even though a roll of the rubber appears in one of Mark's photos.  Nevertheless I had a roll of 2mm thk x 30mm wide neoprene rubber which although pretty soft I felt would do the job well. 

^ my old chassis is typical of many photos I've seen (as a body is lifted off) where the body-chassis mounting strips are only rested upon by the deeper pressing of the floor, and then only occasionally.  So again, me being me, I did things my own way. . .

  

^ short strips being cut to fit under the pressings where they cross over the chassis rails. Doing this under the car ..as evening turned to darkness, and feeding the sticky-backed neoprene in the 3/4" gap between the body and chassis didn't make it a quick operation, but the fiddling around to peel the backing paper off each little length took me longer than fitting them.! 

An extra pair of hands would have been helpful to un-peel the backing and, only then, to cut each length. Then of course to pass them down to you under the car. As indeed would have marking the underside of the body tub (where the chassis sits) and to do all this .. before the body was fitted.  Including sorting thicknesses and now having loose-fitted the central mounting rubbers, the task took me 2 hours ..for one side.

I've lowered the body now and I'm confident these neoprene strips will work well.  None of the mounting bolts are screwed in more than a few threads (because I need to lift the near-side floor tomorrow to do the same), but already the tin-plate of the floor panel sounds very much duller.  Even though the strips barely touch the chassis, clearly it is cushioned. With the extra surface area of these strips, versus the original short lengths fitted in just a few places, it ought to stand up to wear pretty well. Time will tell.

That's it for tonight, so I bid you a pleasant evening.

Pete.

Following-on from two weeks ago, I've not been in the best of health and so have been pottering rather than getting on with the job in hand, nevertheless following Gareth's question, on the TR forum, regarding 'Mounting body to chassis TR4A'  < here > ..I thought I might add a few notes regarding the washers and rubber packers used during the refit of Katie's  body to the replacement chassis.

The bolts (or rather hex-head set screws) were replaced for new, together with the spring washers and penny washers. I say penny-washers deliberately as they are rather different to the original body washers . . .

   

^ two penny-washers don't equal the one thick body-washer. Indeed as you can see, even after such short use, they bent quite easily. This is because as one penny-washer dishes in, it radially slips relative to the other.  Naturally this cannot happen with a single, twice-as-thick, washer.  

In practice, the nickle-plated penny-washers fitted were 1.2mm thick, so their combined 2.4mm thickness was already a fair percentage less than the 1/8" steel body washers previously (originally ?) fitted.  As a rough estimate, using a beam-deflection calculator for solid steel ;  2x 1.5mm penny washers deflect about eight-times more, under the same load, as a single 3mm body washer.   The penny-washers also measured at 28.5mm diameter, whereas the original body-washers were 1-1/4" (32mm) in diameter.

Probably a bit OTT for many of you, but I took the time and trouble to custom make plates for the main body mounts . . .

  

^ The main body to sill mounting plates I've cut and fitted are from 3mm thick steel, three bolt fastening for the rear, and square ones (second photo) further forwards. The latter are 85 x 80mm and so have over double the clamping area of the original four 32mm dia body-washers.  I've used stainless steel penny washers over these to save the paint chipping out under the bolt head.  I've not used spring washers because there's already spring in the rubber mounts, to dissuade the bolts from working loose.  Oh and yes, I've used plain-shanked bolts through the rubber.  There's also a reinforced-rubber gasket on top of / between the floor and these body-mounting plates, to accommodate any discrepancy in surface (..for example, where the edge of the inner sill sits on the floor panel).  All fastenings were of course put in with a generous smear-over of Copaslip.

The forward-most footwell (square) plates are off-the-shelf bright-zinc-plated items from the fastener supplier. They have 10mm holes but with plain washers that's fine. Again they sit on reinforced-rubber gaskets to seal out moisture from under the car.  These being particularly susceptible to road spray, as they are just behind the front wheel-arch.

Was it worth the bother ?  Well, firstly the cost to make them yourself is negligible, but for a few hours of workshop time.  But then probably because of my career background I'm practiced in considering worse-case scenarios. In this instance, that's what happens when some other vehicle T-bones you at a junction.  Having designed and produced very lightweight kit-cars, I had to accept that we were not driving around in armoured tanks, but on the other hand., there's a whole lot to be said for a lightweight car being simply knocked out of the way, rather than statically sitting there trying to absorb the full impact.  Of course being knocked out of the way only works if the car stays together.!   My concern with the skimpy penny-washers was that, in such a scenario, they would tear through the floor's body-mounts, allowing the body to peel off.  So to me - the few hours spent in making these plates were worth that little bit of reassurance.  

Regarding the rubber packing, I don't know where M&T bought theirs from, but they were not  reinforced with nylon (or similar) strands, and so when compressed they creep / squeeze out. That was evident in the distorted shape of their holes when they were first removed.  Perhaps this illustrates just how flexible they are . . .

Even just pinched between finger n' thumb, the stretch distortion is quite evident. The hole in one had already split to the edge. 

Katie  had three of these rubbers in each sill body-mount, packed one on top of another, which like the thin penny-washers shown above would move relative to each other.  In short time these would have 'settled' and the body mounts, tucked out of sight under the carpet, would have been loose, and the body would have been moving / chafing against the chassis.

Pete  

 

 

[Bfg]

One of the little tasks of these past couple of weeks was to fill the small screw holes through the car's floors with seam-sealer, and to paint over those. These were the holes from self-tapping screws used to keep the carpets in place, clearly some had either pulled out or could not be found when fitting new felt or carpets, as in all there were over 80 holes !   I still needed to shop for some new grommets, aside from those for the wiring, there's two for the speedo / rev counter cables through the bulkhead and then two more for the handbrake cables.

Wallace was not in when I dropped by for Gromit, so I went to the club (East Saxons TR group @ the Alma) meeting yesterday evening and my friend Rich kindly brought along a selection of grommets to suit, so they'll be swapped out over the course of my doing other tasks.  In anticipation of refitting the gearbox cover I've just replaced the speedo cable.  That instrument's needle tends to move in a jerky manner and reads inaccurately, so I'm hoping an unkinked new cable may help fit it, without the cost of an instrument rebuild.  ( .. still an optimist Pete ? )

 

^ In the course of replacing the cable, I rerouted it through the pedal box / master cylinders bracket so its run is now very much smoother and imo neater too.    It used to come up passed the steering column and then have to kink around the back corner of the bracket to then go through the same hole through the bulkhead

Other pottering around jobs recently included . . .

^ The vibration damper, which hangs under the tail end of the gearbox didn't have its security bracket, so I twisted one and fitted it. I think its purpose is to prevent the weight from sliding backwards and fouling the driveshaft UJ, should its clamp work loose.  So I could have used wire, but this was almost as easy.  And as you might gather I do like the car to be accurate to original specification 

  

^ I also replaced the rear bearing in the starter motor. This being a high-torque type, fitted by the prior owner, from the TR shop in July 2004  Again due to radiant heat from the exhaust down-pipes the lubrication of that bearing dries out and it had gone notchy (..is that a technical term ! ? ).  The rubber cap over the wiring connection had perished and I found that an old rubber slave cylinder cover fitted on there quite nicely, with its hole filled-in with black silicon sealer.     

^ Another task was to make a panel back for the map pocket I made in the side of the gearbox cover.  This is to be easily removable for access to the gearbox oil-level plug.  The plywood was reclaimed from a small fruit box, and is painted just to keep damp out, but at some time I'll cover it in vinyl.  The back face will have sound deadening on it. The strip of steel was in my bag of off cuts, and all I needed to do to that was to round its ends, de-burr it and drill a couple of countersunk holes. If it were chromed it would look nice but for convenience I've just painted it silver.

next . . .

 

The rubber dam I made for between the engine bay and the gearbox had a wobbly top section.  It's too tight between the gearbox and the underside of the heater to get another fastening in there, so I recycled the aluminium from an old paper-towel holder. Cut to shape with a jig saw, it was nice and easy to work.

Back to work on the gearbox cover . . .

   

^ I used the same ribbed rubber (previously the rubber mat used on shelves in a shop) for noise absorption inside the two parts of this steel gearbox cover.  The issue was of course twofold. 1. keeping it there (rather than it draping down) after a while, and 2. getting / keeping it tight into the corner shapes.  CT-1 adhesive was used for the former, and stuffing it with sponge and soft wadding, while that adhesive was setting, sorted the latter . . .

  

^ The insulation is a work of patchwork because I just started with a limited size of rubber, and that had various holes through it, but on the whole it worked well. The white CT-1 is not pretty but then I could if I was worried about how pretty it looked (..inside the gearbox tunnel, when fitted in the car with carpets over it !) paint it.  I glued it in several stages as that was easier to handle and again for pushing it into the corners, while in the meantime worked on a heat shield . . .

  

^ previously the back of a boiler, a corner of that steel was formed and fitted under the front of the exhaust manifold, as a shield to lessen the radiant heat to the dynamo (which is just an inch-and-a-half away).  That heat causes the rear bearing's lubrication to dry out, and so the bearing fails, this in turn causes the armature to wobble and chew itself up ..which is why I was obliged to replace it.  Seen above, as work-in-progress - it still had to be much tighter fitting (to the manifold), so the dynamo can be rotated all the way to the engine to fit the fan belt.

While doing this I discovered another little problem. . . 

    

^ the dynamo bracket was broken, the hex-head set-screws were all different lengths, and the hole for the rear end of the dynamo was worn rather badly.  Hey ho., Katie  must have thought I was looking for another job to do !   A car like this is like being married !

^ I welded bracket back together, taking care not to have a corner build-up where the front bolt hole is, and then I added a short length of steel tube to the rear ..as a bearing surface for a 5/16" UNF plain-shanked bolt.  In practice, with the heat shield in place, I couldn't get such a long bolt in from behind (from the exhaust manifold side) so the bolt comes in from the front and a lock-nut is fitted at the back.  My apologies for an inaccurate photo. 

    

^ As noted on a recent thread, from a side-screen TR owner, on the TR forum, I'm not the only one who finds that rear pivot-fastening a right awkward so n' so to reach.  With a heat-shield fitted ..its no easier !  The plain shanked bolt went into the bracket's new tube easy enough, and then I had to lay under the car to start the lock-nut onto the thread. And then, from above again, I could get an open-ended spanner onto that nut to hold it as I used a ratchet-ring-spanner to tighten the bolt.  Thankfully I'll not need to remove it very often.  

The three screws holding the bracket are through the engine case and so need to be considered a potential oil leak. All are now the correct 5/16" UNC  x 3/4" long hex-head set screws, with Loctite 5922 'flange sealant' on their threads, and on the back-face of the bracket around the holes.

And so there we have it. . .

       

^ Probably because the rear end of the dynamo is held in line, I've found that the dynamo rotates closer to the engine, and fitting this large section fan onto the pulley is now really easy.  And the heat shield is fitted in place. The screw threads into the forward facing bosses of this exhaust manifold are 3/4" deep and have BSF rather than UNF threads in them.  I don't believe a heat-shield was fitted as standard to UK cars, but it appears to have been planned for, or may perhaps have been specified for some overseas markets.?   

I think that's enough of my waffling on for today, so I'll bid you, one and all, a good evening and a great weekend.

Pete.

[Bfg]

This afternoon saw us pass a milestone in Katie's  reassembly . . .

    

^ I've used 2mm thk x 30mm wide self-adhesive neoprene rubber strip for the gearbox-cover seal.  Using a coring knife (as in apple cores) against a block of softwood, the screw holes were 'punched' out as I went along,

^ forward section in. These jobs always take a little extra time when working alone ..and the bolts, penny washers, and my ribbed-rubber dam (between the engine bay and the gearbox) are fitted from the engine side of the bulkhead and the nut & washers are fitted, with a long reach forward, within the car's interior.

 

^ yes, indeed, the speedo-drive's access cover still needs to be fitted, and also the self-tapping screws around the panel overlaps (each have been pre-drilled but I don't yet know if they line up with the seals in place).

I'm rerouting the rev.counter cable as well, as it looks unsightly running from one side of the car to the other within the engine bay.  I believe the side-screen cars did it this way, so no innovation here ..just a preference of mine.

^ job mostly done, but for fitting the back face of the map pocket, the interior trim with gear-change gaiter, and the handbrake lever.

Because I adapted this cover to fit under the H-frame - it's somewhat sleeker than than it was (TR3 shape).  It looks, and in steel it ought to be, purposeful .. such a shame to hide it under carpets.    anyway I'm really chuffed that its fit is so very tight.  

Bidding you a pleasant weekend,

Pete

[dozeydustman]

How I haven’t read this thread so far is my own fault. It’s excellent! 
 

Seeing your rebuild of the front suspension I was thinking things are awfully familiar. Then as I realised I owned a Scimitar at one point on which I’d done a full front suspension and steering rebuild (2001-2) I remembered whose parts bin Reliant raided. Only the bottom spring retention plate is different, as coilover on the scimitar.

[Bfg]

  

• Feedback on the TR Forum . .

 

On 2/27/2022 at 8:28 AM, BRENDA1 said:

Morning Pete, looking good you could always go rally style and have no carpets. Your getting there then you can get out and about. Took the hardtop off Brenda as hopefully summer is on its way then we’re going out for a short run over to Lyme Park for a walk round the house & gardens. (It’s so close and it appears Carole has never been) have a good day.

Mike redrose group 

Expand  

 

Brenda's looking fabulous Mike. 

I do look forward to getting such a back-light (mine is in GRP) fitted to Katie, and then of course trying to sort out the Surrey top to fit with the TR6 windscreen header rail. 

Yes to start , while I sort through teething problems, rally style with no carpet over the tunnel would make sense, perhaps just rubber floor mats.  Carpets can be fitted later.

 

On 2/27/2022 at 11:25 AM, AlanG said:

Looks good. Worth having access hole for the upper starter motor (bolt ?)  though.

Alan.

Thanks. Good advice Alan, although I do wish you'd mentioned it before I painted, insulated, &/or fitted the cover.  It would have been easy to have had a grommeted hole just there.  The grp cover that was on the car looked to have been smashed in that place, and then was gaffer-taped over.  I didn't realise that it was from where the p.o. replaced the starter motor.   

 

On 2/27/2022 at 11:54 AM, stuart said:

FWIW Sidescreen cars still had the rev counter cable crossing the engine compartment. They just changed sides with the speedo early on in TR2 production so navigators could see the speedo.

Stuart.

Thanks Stuart,  Looking at photos on the internet have clearly misled me, perhaps because so many are LHD !

 

- - -

Following on from the heat shield over the dynamo, and before I refit seats in the car ..this past week I've been looking at / working on Katie's  wiring..   The were several reasons for for tackling this now, working under a poly-tunnel during the cold-damp weather   ..which in short (pun intended) come down to safety, reliability, and my own preference. 

From a personal point of view, I have seen a couple of cars burning. one was a fibreglass bodied Reliant which burnt with such ferocity that it was frightening.  The other was an XJ Jaguar ..famed for electrical faults because of the mass of wires and their duplication (in the manufacturer's hope of improving reliability).  And then of course I had a small under-bonnet fire with Katie, when a pot of brake fluid was left on the exhaust manifolds, after her clutch release mechanism had been replaced.  Fire is a terrible prospect.  

Poor reliability is simply a pain in the archives. Even a well maintained car can fail an MOT because the horn or washers, or a lamp not working. The latter also tends to attract the attentions of the Police ..which on the whole I like to keep on the right side of.  Naturally, because more electrics are used in the winter months and in the rain, heater, wiper, lights, etc, so then the electrical loads on the whole are greater and the likelihood of fault is greater ..all to often occurring in the cold, dark and wet.  And of course in the cold weather, the starter is working harder to turn over more viscous engine oil and then with lights on the charging system is working close to its capacity. .

My third point was own-preferences. I find life easier when there's logic in the wire's route, but of course Standard-Triumph had to make compromises for economy, ease of production and commonality of parts for left and right hand drive cars ..destined to different markets.  I also distrust home-crimped connectors, and insecure/ unsupported wires that drape or swing around loosely and chafe.  And then again clutter and unsightly wiring, and heater pipes, drive and control cables crossing over each other in the engine bay. 

I find a neatly laid out engine bay is easier to keep clean and tidy, easier to see when something is not quite right, and offers better access for maintenance (I lost count of the number of times my right sleeve snagged on the exposed terminals of the horn relay when I was working on the dynamo, its mountings and shield ..before I removed it !). I also find neat engineering is somewhat more pleasing. But then I also have personal preferences in terms of things like hazard warning lights, electric screen-wash, and lights of an appropriate brightness ..now that other night-time ambient light levels (other vehicles and street lighting) are so much brighter than they were 50 years ago.

Even a cursory check of Katie's  wiring revealed that important (read un-switched live and heavy current) connections had failed. For example two of the large wires to the control box very easily pulled out of their connectors, those to the horn and dynamo each had heat-hardened and cracked insulation, and the wires to both the main and dipped headlamps were pinched-through the insulation to expose the copper wire. Many other wires had the end connector with exposed frayed wires to it.   I also didn't like the electrical wires going forward being routed in the bottom corner of the inner wing, where any petrol leak would dribble onto them.

Non of the wiring connections which had been home / previous-owner replaced with crimped wore end-sleeve insulation over the connection, so each were exposed to be shorted out. These include each wire to the control box.  Even the original connections to the fuse box are exposed.  Each of this car's three fuses were 35A, and no connection terminal appeared to have been cleaned and Vaselined when the car was restored 22+ years ago ..so commonly the resistance between every wire and its connection would be high. Throughout the car - that'll add up.  High electrical resistance leads to higher currents being needed for the same output, and then the greater the risk of fire &/or failure.  It also means more battery charging is necessary which of course is paid for in fuel consumption.    

Is the car likely to be safe. legal and reliable as it is.?  - Aside from the horn not working, and the control box being of poor aftermarket quality with  intermittent connections through its loosely riveted terminals, it otherwise works for now. But imo failure is imminent when damp, corrosion and vibration will take their toll.

 

So, present work-in-progress involves checking every connection, cleaning off oxidisation (back to bare metal), add insulation where appropriate, with Vaseline brushed in every joint before reassembly (to lessen further corrosion), and then of course securing the wires. 

That aside I'm in the process of moving a few things . . .

. .

^ In terms of own-preference (logic in routing and a clearer engine bay) and in order to keep more of the electrics in a kinder environment, than an engine bay, I've chosen to relocate the control box and fuses to under the dashboard, in a line back from the voltage stabiliser.  At least if there is a fire I'll have advanced warning from the smell of melting insulation ..or my pants being on fire !  Yes there's plenty of room for my size-13 feet under there too.  The underside of the bulkhead was repainted and aluminium tape applied over that to reflect light in that corner.  And the fuse-box is on a bracket so the fuses face me when its cover is off.  

The brake light switch is dangling loose at the moment, but I want to move it to under here too.   I yet have to re-wrap the wires, and will use sleeves for the longer runs, and then of course to properly secure those wires.  

^ In the engine bay, for the forward wiring (lights and horn) I'm taking the high road over  the inner wing rather than through the gully under the carbs.  I'm also taking the opportunity to replace the grommets through the bulkhead for new, so noise and fumes are less likely to waft their way into the car's interior. 

And I now have a clear bulkhead shelf, besides the pedal box, to put tools down onto.   

Next I'll be looking into LED side, brake and indicator bulbs. There's a lot of reading (I've yet to do) in archive posts to find out what's what. 

My front indicator bulbs are already LED (stamped 1156 12v) with a " 25w 7 omn J " resistor on one side.  I also have LED number plate lamps, but for the sake of brightness and least electrical current - I'd like to replace the rest.  The car is negative earth.  I'd also like to add hazard warnings, and to add additional sidelights into each headlamp.

Cheers,

Pete.

[Bfg]

 

Hi Y'all.

I've had a bit too much fun this past week redrawing the TR4 wiring diagram into Autocad, only to then find out that the TR4A has quite a few differences.  It is very remiss of the workshop manual and of Haynes, not to include one for this model of car. after all they did make more than just a handful.  I have a copy of Autowire's wiring diagram and have noted various comments about the couple of things wrong in that, so in time, I'll get mine correct.

I think classic cars were only ever invented to try and teach us patience and understanding of another's perspective.  The former I'm a persistent failure, and although I do have an appreciation of the design and build practices of these cars - I still find it infuriating when the space lacks just 1/4" extra to get a finger or tool onto fastening.!    Old Brit motorcycles are generally much easier to work on.

- - -

Anyways., much of what I'm doing right now with Katie  is simply the result of five decades of humidity and heat cycles having hardened insulation on the wires to the point where it has cracked or else where a connector on the end of a wire has worked loose (most likely 'metal fatigue' due to prolonged vibration &/or excessive bending or pulling of the wire into the connector).  Credit though must go to those who made these wiring looms. The quality of materials and the way the joints were made, is really very good ..not least insomuch as it has lasted so well and ..in the most part, will continue to safely and efficiently serve its purpose for many years to come.  

50 years on though., with the grime of humidity & dust and the inevitable oxidisation of the metal of the connector - I'm sure most every wiring joint on the car would measure excessive resistance.  So..,  dim lamps, poor charging, poor wiper and heater-blower performance, and then wasted fuel (after all - such inefficiencies always have to be paid for) ..as well as the potential fire risk and frustrating reliability issues either when everyone is watching, or else it is cold, wet, and getting dark ! 

It's a time consuming business to pull each and every wiring connection, and to pull back their end insulation sleeve and to check, clean and Vaseline every one, but if I don't.. then the piper will at some time have to be paid.

Fortunately I didn't have that many  home-crimped connectors on this car, but almost without exception those that are were  on Katie were loose enough to easily pull off.  I really do despise those things.

I've (professionally) designed a number of car and yacht looms myself, and so can appreciate that Triumph had to design the loom for different market configurations and equally for expediency during assembly.  So while checking and cleaning each wire, I'm also making minor adjustments according to my own criteria ..of being the driver.   I stress that I'm moving things around ..not because they are needed, but rather to suit my personal preference of ; having a tidier engine bay, and to order the routing in such a way that it is simpler &/or where any future fault might more easily be traced.  I'm also making a few changes according to my own ergonomic preferences and personal taste.

The changes I've made (..or am in the process of making) are ;

• control box (voltage regulator) moved to now be under the dashboard, together with the fuses.  This saved a host of wires having to go through the bulkhead grommet and then back again.  It also moves those items away from the engine bay side of the bulkhead (next to the pedal box) so that I have a clear shelf to put a tool down.  Those items are less likely to have their connections knocked, twisted, etc,  or shorted out by a metal tool.  NB. each connection on both the fuse box and the regulator were not insulated, but now each are. 

• Like wise with the brake light switch.  It's a pull type with a spring, which probably dates back to the 1950's as it came out of my box of motorcycle switches.  That is mounted onto the pedal box's rear fastening, onto which the steering column brace is also secured.  Again its wiring is now direct.
• And the bonnet release cable has moved to a new bracket too.  The 'new' bracket was formerly an aluminium coat peg. and it's screwed onto the bottom of the air vent trunking, which is very much easier to reach than where it was. The bonnet release cable is now 10" shorter and a smoother run through the grommet behind the pedal box to curve around the clutch master cylinder . . .

^ speedo & bonnet release cables rerouted.  The fine wire to the seen to the left of the master cylinder is an emergency bonnet pull.   The original solenoid was removed because Katie  has a hi-torque starter with a built in solenoid, and the two electrical wires ..from the ign switch and ammeter to the battery lead (seen under the bonnet latch) are yet to be dealt with.

• The wires to the dynamo now come through the bulkhead under the steering column (the hole was already there), and runs forward underneath the throttle linkage brackets within high temp (silicon rubber ?) wrap to help protect it from the heat of the exhaust manifold.
• The wiring to the headlamps, sidelights &indicators, and to the horn - now run over the top of RHS inner wheelarch, passed the bonnet-stay bracket, then dropping down to the lamps, and across the engine bay to the LHS below the grille.  I'll only be having the high-tone horn (sound carries better than the low tone) and that is mounted low-down on the inner wing, by the front LHS body/chassis mount. Just the one horn is rated at 3amp (which is less than that of the earlier cars) and as I'm not going to have a horn on the RHS of the car, I can also be rid of the relay and its nasty nest of wires that sit perched on the suspension tower.
• The wiring from the ignition switch to the coil, and that from the temperature sender to its gauge, now run down the LHS of the engine bay, clipped to the rev-counter cable which now also goes through the bulkhead on that side. 
• The speedo and rev counter instruments have switched their positions on the dashboard ..so their cable runs are smoother.  I don't have a navigator who needs to see the speedo, nor a wife who likes to keep a check on my road speed.!  
• Katie's  veneered dashboard was looking dull and generally 'very tired'.  I don't think it bloomed with living outside (even in a poly-tunnel).  It's plywood was twisted when I bought the car and as I unscrewed it I noticed it was de-laminating even in its core.  All things considered, it was overdue retirement.  I've always preferred the white dashboard of the early TR4 and so will at some time explore that option.  In the meantime (..during this Saturday's breakfast meeting) I acquired a TR4 centre console from my friend Rich ..many thanks to him for that.  And rather than pull the car apart further apart at this time, I'm leaving its TR4A metal dash in black.  NB. it's been crudely brush-painted at some time by a prior-owner and although I was intending to cover it in leather-effect vinyl..  for moment and for visual appraisal - the black paint will serve my purpose. . .

  

^ after a scrub upto clean off surface rust and a coat of zinc on its back face, the central console was good to go.

^ That looks OK ..I think ! ? 

Tbh., I like to think of the Triumph TR4 (yes even the 4A with its 'more compliant' rear suspension) as a rather crude seat-of-the-pants type driver's sports car, rather than the smoker's bar of a gentleman's club.  Accordingly, whereas I revere the book-matched veneer dashboards, door and A-post cappings, and fold-out tables in a classic Jaguar saloon, or Aston or Bentley ..I've never felt it looked honest in the Triumph.  Hey ho., we're all individuals and even my own personal taste is not a crime !    

No disrespect to those who have it in their cars, but I never was keen on British Leyland anti-glare (read dull) teak.  Purely by coincidence, at the breakfast meeting on Saturday one of our local TR6's had black kevlar-effect dashboard ..which I thought looked pretty cool.  I would of course have preferred the tactile feel of kevlar as well but hey that would be going a bit OTT. 

Anyway back to my tasks in hand, I've cleaned up each of the connections on the back of the instruments but I've yet to clean those up on each each of the wires.  Monday's job I think, after I've done some paperwork and paid some bills ..if only to get them off my desk.  The ashtray is a dummy plate.  I'll make, or look out for one, in due course ..no urgency though, as I don't smoke.  I guess I'll make a glove box door, and then I'll also want to fill in the 1/2" gap between the centre console and the switch plinth. More jobs to add to the list.   

I think finally for today's report ..

• I've positioned a 3-position pull-out type TR4 light switch on the right of the steering wheel.  I really don't like the column switches on the 4A and so the steel dashboard already having the hole there and, again my friend Rich helping me with the supply of a good switch on Saturday, I've put it there.  I've yet to shop for a knob to go on this switch, but it's a really convenient position just there, and yet the padded roll on the bottom of the dash will prevent it from getting knocked as I swing my legs in and out of the car.     I'd like the overdrive column switch to be on the LHS of the steering column. I'm not sure but it may be there on a TR4 ?

Well that's enough for today,  Again i bid you a very pleasant Sunday,

Pete.

[Bfg]

  

  From the TR forum . . .

 

On 3/7/2022 at 4:15 PM, Lebro said:

An LED compatible flasher unit, being electronic, will have a constant flash rate regardless of the load. They will also be more reliable than an ancient bimetalic type with pitted / rusted contacts !   & yes, the resistor is just wasting power.

My recommendations:

LED compatible flasher unit
https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/indicator-relays-electronic/products/12v-electronic-indicator-flasher-relay-classic-car-with-oe-click-x-l-p-2-3-pin

Headlamp conversion kit to H4 LED
https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/sb7014-sealed-beam-to-h4-led-upgrade-kit-p43t-472-llb472-glb472-bulb-globe

Or Headlamp conversion kit with pilot light

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/headlight-led-bulbs/products/sb7014-sealed-beam-to-h4-led-upgrade-kit-p43t-472-llb472-glb472-bulb-globe-2

Rear indicators
https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/indicator-bulbs/products/bright-amber-smd-led-indicator-bulbs-ba15s-glb382

Rear stop / tail
https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/brake-tail-light-bulbs/products/2-x-bay15d-red-stop-tail-led-2835-brake-rear-light-glb380-p21-5w

Side lights

https://www.classiccarleds.co.uk/collections/sidelight-bulbs/products/2x-ba9s-lucas-l516-1130-bright-white-t4w-233-led-sidelight-upgrade-bulb

High quality stuff, & good prices (compared to some who advertise in TR action  )

I don't know of any really good LED conversions for the earlier headlamp units with P36D type bulbs. so suggest switching to H4.

Bob
 

 

On 3/8/2022 at 11:52 AM, Lebro said:

Hazard warning.

This is easily achieved once you have LED flashers, & compatible flasher unit.

All you need is a 3 pole change over switch, here are two types of different sizes to choose from.

I use the small one, & it is hidden under the dash.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/264269001947?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131898614717?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

And a small amount of wiring:

This is my wiring, I think your "indicator warning lamp" is wired differently (across the left & right bulbs)

you can just ignore that bit, in which case the warning lamp won't flash when hazards are on.

Or change the wiring to be as above (using the pilot terminal on the flasher unit to power the warning lamp)

Bob

 

Thanks Bob, I ordered today via telephone ..as I wasn't sure about the bulbs recommended for different sized instruments & the warning lights all being the same, and then I also had a few questions re. minor discrepancies from standard. 

I might add, the gentleman over the phone was very patient with me and gave excellent service < Classic Car LEDs. > 

In summary, Katie  already has LED front indicator bulbs and I'd already bought those for the rear number plate.. so I've now ordered . . 

• LED rear indicator bulbs (amber)  x2
• LED brake and rear sidelight bulbs (red)  x2
• LED instrument bulbs  (warm white) x6 
• LED indicator warning light bulb  (green) x1       NB. I tend to find the main beam warning light bulb bright as it is, so I'm not changing that to LED).
• LED front indicator repeater bulbs (amber / capless on this particular car) x2
• LED front sidelight bulbs (warm white)  x2
• LED front sidelight bulbs together with bulb holders to (additionally) fit into the back of the headlamp reflectors (warm white) x2
• LED compatible indicator relay (which audibly ticks, similar to the original)  x1

All in all a little over £93 inc VAT and carriage. 

I think that's good value for decent quality parts, and from a UK company that is there to back-up their sale. 

The reasoning behind my spending this - is primarily to reduce the collective wattage of the side lamps and indicators, whereby in the event of an evening or night-time breakdown ; the battery's charge will last four-times longer and in the meantime those lights will be brighter.  Of course, in everyday running, the power not consumed doesn't need to be regenerated either.  At present petrol prices ..their lesser power consumption will pay for the bulbs pretty soon ! 

I'll keep a few of the original bulbs in the boot as spares. IMO there's no need to add the cost of spare LED bulbs which I might never use.  Katie's  present headlamp bulbs are 60/65w H4 halogen within Cibie reflectors, and I'm happy to leave those as are. 

Time-wise to change these is nil, because I'm pulling each bulb anyway to clean connections and to Vaseline the contacts and threads within the bulb holders.

I've also ordered the small switch (off of ebay) as recommended by Bob, so that I might switch the turn indicators into hazard warning.

I'm indebted to Bob for pointing me in the right direction, which has really saved a huge amount of pondering over what might ..or should, be. Thank you.

Pete