project Invacar MK12 - New owner Mrs 6Cyl

[LightBulbFun]

The simple reason I put 'Invacar' rather than 'Invalid' down as the make, means the DVLA functionary may have gone no further with the enquiry...just doing their job.

 

Howmanyleft doesn't list the manufacturer invalid at all - suggesting either they do some data cleansing - or there just aren't any 'invalid' models left.

 

Capture.JPG

 

all invacars iv shoved through the DVLA checker have always come back as INVACAR

 

so I have a feeling this "invalid" is litreally that, someone put an invalid make or data type into that field and the computer says No.

[egg]

Indeed, I'm writing to HowManyLeft to clarify that.

 

More deep data geeking out. Yum.

[LightBulbFun]

Oh, I did an FOI request for Mk12 Invacar details as well on 28th Feb, for reasons that escape me, I asked for data for 'AC cars' rather than Invacar themselves. I have no idea why I did that, but if and when that is rejected, I'll do another one! Doh!

 

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/request_for_details_regarding_mk

 

yeah a couple things to note

 

AC and Invacar are 2 seperate companies (with most ACs coming under AC (ELECTRIC) )

 

and that both AC and invacars just had the maker part of the V5 filled in and nothing else (like Model etc)

 

the Model info was never filled in normally, so if you ask for "Mk12 info" they wont be able to provide anything, since all V5s will just say "INVACAR" regardless of if its a Model 70, a Mk12 or a 1953 Mk8....

[egg]

yeah, bit of a cock-up that - but in my defence was asking for manufacturing records rather than registration info with DVLA.

 

Very unlikely they know where they are, and that Stuart hasn't already tried this - but gotta have a go.

 

No stone unturned etc.

 

Anyway, multiple FOI requests are ok, as long as they aren't seen as vexatious. I've had to process them the other end when working for a now defunct public body - so I have a clue about the approach they take.

[LightBulbFun]

it might be worth giving the DVLA a call and explaining whats been happening so far

 

its surprising what different results you can get just because you got someone else on the other end

 

(I wonder if the guy on the phone can do a quick look up of a few Chassis numbers? because what we dont know is if your chassis number was put down in the V5 with anything extra or any typos, what if your chassis number was recorded with a B instead of an 8 or something like that, or if it starts with INV or 1NV like DWs Model 70? we have no way of knowing, but if it did, then you just supplying just the number would flag up as nonexistent even if it was correct)

[egg]

That's very true about call centres.

 

Also, I wonder if they can 'wildcard' search as you suggest - so look for say - all pre-1972 chassis numbers that include that set of numbers...

[mk2_craig]

Does anybody have any stats on what the actual life expectancy of these things was? Perhaps this one was taken off the road when only single figure years old and never on the computer records?

 

Maybe there's some local office taxation records in a library or archive center somewhere that could be hunted through. I'm sure I've read of people successfully doing that for vehicles that had been off the road for decades, and where the chassis number was known but there was no paperwork accompanying the vehicle.

[LightBulbFun]

Does anybody have any stats on what the actual life expectancy of these things was? Perhaps this one was taken off the road when only single figure years old and never on the computer records?

 

Maybe there's some local office taxation records in a library or archive center somewhere that could be hunted through. I'm sure I've read of people successfully doing that for vehicles that had been off the road for decades, and where the chassis number was known but there was no paperwork accompanying the vehicle.

 

about 10 years seems to be the average life for an invalid tricycle from what iv seen (which to be fair is better then most cars  )

 

so indeed most Mk12s would of been withdrawn long before things got computerised

 

but we are pretty sure eggs Mk12 was withdrawn sometime in the 1980s/1990s (would of been one of the last mk12s in service I imagine)

 

so I would hope/think that Eggs Mk12 is on the computer system

[barrett]

Don't I need an MOT for that though Matt? Proof of age is at least on the VIN plate.

It's MoT exempt due to age, you don't need an MoT to register it, although it WILL be inspected and it will need to at least appear 'roadworthy' for the inspection, ie a door, windscreen, wheels and tyres etc etc etc

 

It's a tricky one innit. How much do you invest in the thing before you attempt to get a logbook? I would say that no car is impossible to register, but some will require more effort than others and at times it might seem all is lost. Sir Greg Knight, who chairs the all-party historic vehicles group, is usually happy to intercede on behalf of owners who ate coming up against resistance from the DVLA, so worth bearing that in mind if things get tricky. Bon chance!

[egg]

Maybe there's some local office taxation records in a library or archive center somewhere that could be hunted through. I'm sure I've read of people successfully doing that for vehicles that had been off the road for decades, and where the chassis number was known but there was no paperwork accompanying the vehicle.

 

Good idea, I have just written to Essex records office to see if they hold any information. I've done a lot of family history work in the past, and I'm used to this kind of problem! Makes the breakthrough or payoff more fun. Speaking of Essex, I got invited into Orsett church once by chance and found loads of old baptism records for my 18-19th Century ancestors, so I'm sure the info is probably out there somewhere.

 

While searching Essex records I have found that Essex records office holds two interesting interviews in their sound archive - that I would very much like to hear, as follows...(maybe the ICR already has them - I'll check)

 

https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/result_details.aspx?ThisRecordsOffSet=2&id=305599

https://www.essexarchivesonline.co.uk/result_details.aspx?ThisRecordsOffSet=1&id=305601

 

[egg]

As I slowly descend into a Friday afternoon Invacar wormhole, some good footage here from Greeves motorcyle factory in Thundersley, where the Invacars were made. No invacars - apart from at 16 seconds for a fleeting second the rear of a MK12 in the background.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=751b9zhj2fw&t

 

[Eddie Honda]

Yep. Stop pissing about with the internet and do some thumbing of pages down the local records office for that area.

 

All these old registrations would have been manual entries in pen on paper.

[LightBulbFun]

interesting how that one has an older blue peacock blue body, but a DHSS blue roof

 

(I wonder if it was some sort of factory test mule?)

[egg]

Yep. Stop pissing about with the internet and do some thumbing of pages down the local records office for that area.

 

All these old registrations would have been manual entries in pen on paper.

 

Indeed. No answer to my calls today (not open on Friday's) - but email for now, and if they have anything, I'll need to take a trip over there.

[Zelandeth]

Worth noting that you *shouldn't* need an MOT. The V112 form takes the place of that as far as administration is concerned as you're informing the system that it's not needed. I'd assumed you needed a valid MOT to change the taxation class, but the lady in the post office explained that the documentation simply had yet to be updated, and it should read that you need a valid MOT *or* completed valid V112 MOT exemption form.

 

For what it's worth a lot of these are in the system with incorrect or incomplete data I think. The chassis number on the V5 I got with KPL bore no resemblance to the one on the car (not even close to the correct format), and the engine number wasn't listed either.

[egg]

Thank you. In other news, Essex records office have responded....

 

Thank you for your e-mail which my colleague has forwarded to me.  We do have vehicle licence registers for 1967 which show registration numbers, name & address of first owner, make of vehicle, date issued and possibly the chassis number.  However you do really need to know the registration number.  If the number is unknown then if you have some information such as make of vehicle, chassis number etc. then we could search through the registers to try and find a match.  However there are 40 registers for 1967 and I would anticipate this to take at least 2 hours or perhaps longer I’m afraid.  Our hourly fee is £30.  I attach a Search Service form.  Alternatively you would be very welcome to visit our Searchroom in person and view the registers at no charge.  Just bring with you proof of your I.D. (signature & address) in order to obtain a CARN ticket.  Our opening hours can be found at www.essexrecordoffice.co.uk  

[LightBulbFun]

ohh! thats a result if i ever saw one

 

let us know how that goes

 

(if they really do have all the registration info for invacars still then that would be quite the result for invacar enthusiasts in general especially as it would help no end in patching up the missing Mk12 info for the ICR)

[Sir Snipes]

Sounds like it could be an administrative nightmare, trying to trace a vehicle when even when they were in service the records were "somewhat sketchy". Unless you enjoy that kind of thing ofcourse.....

[Eddie Honda]

let us know how that goes

 

Given you are in London and have an eye for detail, I'd suggest that a second pair of eyes would have the job of scanning through 40 massive registers done in half the time.

[egg]

(if they really do have all the registration info for invacars still then that would be quite the result for invacar enthusiasts in general especially as it would help no end in patching up the missing Mk12 info for the ICR)

 

I have just written back with the info I do have, asking if that will help search the registers. We'll see.

 

There's a thought though - we could possibly get the whole damn lot of records. The MK12 invalid carriage register (rival organisation) - I'm kidding again!

[LightBulbFun]

speaking of, stuart just got back to me on the whole thing (iv been giving him a live update so to speak of todays going ons) 

 

and he was saying, that he was just about to bring up going to the Essex or Southend records office himself, and that its a project he himself was interested in doing (go down there for a week and comb through everything etc)

 

he says it will be hard work to find it just on the chassis number alone, but it will be in there somewhere

 

 

we are defiantly on the right path

[egg]

Further response from Essex records...

 

The information you have given should be sufficient for you or me to search the registers.  I cannot guarantee I will find the entry of course so please bear that it mind but I am very happy to search the registers on your behalf or alternatively you are welcome to visit.  As I say it is difficult to say how long it will take to work through the registers, I would hope to do it in 2 hours but I cannot say for certain at this stage. If you do decide to use the Search Service then please return the completed form to me either by post or by e-mail.  It is best not to send a cheque at this stage as we are uncertain of the time it will take.

[Eddie Honda]

he was just about to bring up going to the Essex or Southend records office himself,

3 pairs of eyes then.

[egg]

Another response...(Stuart's hunch is it is an autumn 67 car - certainly after April I think we established from Barrett's book - as that's when the 12c was launched)

 

Following on from your last e-mail I noted that you said it should have been an ‘F’ reg for 1967.  That narrows is down to 18 registers which are for 1967 and have the ‘F’ reg so that’s not so bad.  Of course the ‘F’ registers continue for 1968 but if you are sure it is 1967 then there would be 18 books as opposed to 40 to look at!

[Zelandeth]

Ah, FOI enquiries...One of my old nemeses.

 

The rules we had were that we *had* to drop everything and deal with the enquiry unless we could prove that we did not hold the data in question or that the task would require excessive amounts of staff time - measured in days rather than hours!

 

Was always fun when a complicated one surfaced during a busy period...

[egg]

Indeed - the trouble with administering FOI's is their unpredictable and ad hoc nature - they tend to be like buses - and when you have a 'day job' as well that can be hard to manage.

[LightBulbFun]

small update from Stuart he says most Mk12s where recorded as scrapped where as only about 10% of Model 70s where (I wonder if this is why most dont show up on the DVLA checker these days?)

 

but that it does not matter and you should still be able to registered again either via an age related plate or its original number plate if thats found out

 

(and that all of Invacars own factory records where destroyed in the 1975 Factory fire, that also pretty much finished off the company)

[egg]

Also response from Howmanyleft:

 

As far as I know, everything that has a missing or invalid field is recorded in a “Missing” category in How Many Left. It’s only good for aggregate data though, there’s no way of knowing how many of a specific car exists in those categories.

[Zelandeth]

Indeed - the trouble with administering FOI's is their unpredictable and ad hoc nature - they tend to be like buses - and when you have a 'day job' as well that can be hard to manage.

Funny you mention buses...

 

One I had in was a request instructing me to show that bus service provision had decreased or otherwise in our area in each year since deregulation. Suggesting it be broken down to number of journeys to each area & the city centre as a metric. Sadly, as we had records of every service going back to the dawn of time...I had to handle that one.

 

Took me about a week and a half non stop all told...and about three months to claw my way back to a level heading in terms of the day job which I had to put on hold while dealing with this...

[Angrydicky]

Bit late here, but I've been to the ERO three times now looking up old cars and its a good day out. The old ledgers are fascinating! They will I'm sure have the info you need but it will just be a case of finding it.