invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Eyersey1234]

9 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

well thats what was supposed to happen

the invalid vehicle service policy for end of life machines was to "mutilate beyond economical repair"

(this especially after some shenanigans in the 1980s/1990s of people using ex IVS invalid vehicles for piss taking/bad reasons, before then you could supposedly just say your going to scrap it and buy an invalid vehicle from the government for £1 but they stopped that after above shenanigans and people not actually scrapping them)

 

but thankfully some escaped that fate  a small number where officially donated to museums etc thanks to work done by the ICR

 

 

 but most survours are ones that either never got scrapped by the scrap yard they were sent to and just sat around for years and years (remember they have no scrap value, well the fibreglass ones anyhow!), which is how TWC725K XWC468F, TPA621M etc survived for example

or where flat out stolen from the government by approved repairers who where meant to scrap them but instead gave them to friends etc,

usually with the instruction that it must never be seen in the road or the approved repairer would get a bollocking since they were meant to destroy it and the government may well have tried to take it back from the friend since it was effectively stolen government property

(which is why you see so many rung invacars, esp from the 1990s, before they became public domain, as people tried to hide their IDs to stop the government from taking it back, like MPH759P for example, which left ministry service in 1997, and was then rung under a false chassis number and Q reg Q231PVL, until I fixed that!)

this is for example how OPH868R survived (although thankfully she avoided being rung, having actually been kept off road since she left service in 2003-2004)

however thankfully since the invalid vehicle service ceased to be in 2004, all government owned invalid vehicles became public domain basicly and ceased to be government property  and you don't have to worry about the government chasing you up or ex approved repairs getting a bollocking etc

but the government's policy of destroy, is sadly why so few invalid vehicles survive today, and why sadly many models of invalid vehicles are thought to be extinct, like the Invacar Mk10 etc

Thanks LBF. Sounds a bit like the steam locos at Woodhams of Barry, they were meant to be scrapped but Dai Woodham hung onto them for so long that the preservation movement was able to buy most of them.

[LightBulbFun]

No problem  im happy to be of help/service to clear up all the mysteries, questions and false info there is out there on invalid vehicles  

 

[LightBulbFun]

36 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Sounds a bit like the steam locos at Woodhams of Barry, they were meant to be scrapped but Dai Woodham hung onto them for so long that the preservation movement was able to buy most of them.

indeed very much so with the ones that were sent for scrap but never got scrapped  

[martc]

9 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

its one of the reasons they were all single seaters, as the DHSS viewed them as an Appliance as if they were like a very big wheel chair, and you don't see 2 seater wheelchairs do you! like wheelchairs they were, something given to an individual to enable them mobilize/get out and about

What could be described as 1+1

[Eyersey1234]

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/29/ac-invacar-model-70-review-invalid-carriage-festival-of-the-unexceptional

 

Just found this link to an article about dolly's Invacar. 

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/apr/29/ac-invacar-model-70-review-invalid-carriage-festival-of-the-unexceptional

 

Just found this link to an article about dolly's Invacar. 

ah yes im aware of that articial

the crash protection argument is one of those that makes me roll my eyes a bit

as yes, i would not want to have a crash in one

but in terms of safety compared to other cars of the 1970's (especially smaller cars)

the Model 70 was no worse than those cars, even MIRA confirmed that with their crash tests of the Model 70, infact one could argue March 1976 and later Model 70 was slightly better in a rollover crash then most other cars at the time

since how many cars back then came from the factory with a rollover bar! not even most sports cars did! (not to mention the included fire extinguisher, again something not many cars came with in the 1970s or even today I think!)

so if they argue crash safety, then they should also complain about it for the Free Minis they wanted instead!

its also worth noting that the Model 70 did pass european crash test regulations of the time with the 1974 Model 70 Mark B and its strengthened chassis

[Eyersey1234]

I think the issue is they are an old design being compared against newer designs, that's why the Rover 100 did so badly in NCAP 1997.

[LightBulbFun]

27 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

I think the issue is they are an old design being compared against newer designs, that's why the Rover 100 did so badly in NCAP 1997.

oh yeah by 2003 things where a different matter in that regard, but keep in mind after 1978 or so with the introduction of the motability scheme etc, people using Model 70's etc where doing so out of choice rather then it being the only option available to them (and if you wanted a Model 70 after 1978 or so, well tough luck you couldn't! unless your name was Marion webb or you where part of the war pensioners scheme. or tracked down a private example)

until eventually in 2003 the government put its foot down on all the remaining users and forced them onto motability etc (although to be fair people knew this day would come for many years beforehand)

in true government fashion it actually cost the government a lot more money to migrate remaining users, then it would of probably just to let them dwindle 1 by 1 until no more, as the government had to cover initial driving lessons etc and each IVS user had a person assigned to them (like a social worker) to help them migrate etc

 

but even in the 1970's the vocal minority used safety as one of its arguing points, when the Model 70 was no less safe then something like a Mini of the time or such in an accident, which is what makes me roll my eyes somewhat

 

[LightBulbFun]

tippen delta ended with 2 bids at £1,877.62

so common fess up who here (hopefully) won it?  

[egg]

Not me. My hope is someone will get it running.

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, egg said:

Not me. My hope is someone will get it running.

aye same I just want to make sure it goes to a good home

its why I try and convince people here to buy invalid vehicles that pop up for sale like the Mk12B and this Delta 8 electric

as I know this forum is a good home for them  

[LightBulbFun]

dragging this also over to my thread as its also very relevant here

 

 

On 11/8/2019 at 3:09 PM, Vin said:

 

37052 - 03/04/1976, Whitemoor Jnc, March.

heres an interesting little tidbit for anyone wondering more about the whole transportation of invalid vehicles on trains operation  

Quote

Ministry of Health invalid cars and adapted cars were sent by rail for longer distance journeys under a special agreed flat rate which included distribution when new from the factory (Invacars were made by AC at Thames Ditton at one time, the other part of their factory was turning out AC Cobras!) and distribution from depots where presumably stocks were held.

and heres a few more pictures I have managed to dig up in the past  (im curious what the sandbags are for, are they there just to stop the tie down ropes from damaging the cars or if they serve another purpose?)

Invacar Mk12c 

AC Model 57

and AC Model 67 Mk14, on a specially adapted carriage designed to hold cars 

 

more detailed discussion of lowfits and such can be found here  https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/140646-lowfits-the-uses-of/

 

(as mentioned in the railshite thread I had thought for some reason that the practice of transporting them via rail had stopped before the Model 70's time, so it was a pleasant surprised to see the picture of 2 Model 70's being transported by rail in the same way ) 

[busmansholiday]

Those sand bags are to stop damage BUT, somewhere in BR's archives will be a loading and rigging (where to strap it to) diagram showing how an Invacar should be tied down to the flat wagon to stop it moving. Things like that happened for a reason, the Beighton train accident in 1942 being a point. 

 

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Those sand bags are to stop damage BUT, somewhere in BR's archives will be a loading and rigging (where to strap it to) diagram showing how an Invacar should be tied down to the flat wagon to stop it moving. Things like that happened for a reason, the Beighton train accident in 1942 being a point. 

 

very interesting, are those diagrams/archives available to the public? it would be interesting to see how/if it varied from model to model etc and just how it was done  

imagine finding a load of Invacars in a field etc somewhere and having them transported by train, meanwhile some poor OAP sitting at a rail crossing sees a train load of invacars go past and thinks he has ended up back in 1971 again!

(what happened in that train accident? I did a quick google/wikipedia search and could not find anything?)

[Mrs6C]

28 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

very interesting, are those diagrams/archives available to the public? it would be interesting to see how/if it varied from model to model etc and just how it was done  

imagine finding a load of Invacars in a field etc somewhere and having them transported by train, meanwhile some poor OAP sitting at a rail crossing sees a train load of invacars go past and thinks he has ended up back in 1971 again!

(what happened in that train accident? I did a quick google/wikipedia search and could not find anything?)

The Beighton accident was this one:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/MoT_Beighton1942.pdf

Here is the Railways Archive and how to get started making use of it:
http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/gettingstarted.php

[Mrs6C]

Something else you might find interesting, if you haven't see it already:
https://inmatesofwillard.com/2013/11/13/1948-the-invacar/

Ivan the Invacar!
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q="ivan+the+invacar"

[LightBulbFun]

14 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Something else you might find interesting, if you haven't see it already:
https://inmatesofwillard.com/2013/11/13/1948-the-invacar/

Ivan the Invacar!
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q="ivan+the+invacar"

aye indeed iv seen those

XGX224 is AFAIK, the only Invacar exported to the US when new

from what I understand it was sent over there to test the market for them in the US but there was little interest

I believe XGX224 is/was a temporary export plate

funnily enough PWC801 survives and is with ian hellings also in the US, and I say funnily enough, because PWC801 is 1 chassis number behind from XGX224, what are the chances of that  

[LightBulbFun]

 

Yay found an earlier Mk14 that shows up on the DVLA which means I can pull its chassis number and finally see what a Mk14's chassis number looks like  

if the reg looks somewhat familiar this is probably why  (im also pretty sure the Mk14 pictured on the wagon is UPC797F)

 

sadly of the 2-3 known surviving Mk14's none have any known identifying marks, so until now I dont think anyone knew what a Mk14 chassis number looks like 

 

its interesting to note that the chassis number starts with "FG"

I wonder it stands for Fibreglass? as in for Fibreglass AC Acedes (since before the Mk14 was the Mk12 which was made out of aluminium)

after that from WPG607G/WPK129G I know theres a chassis block that starts with TA for the Mk14As

then the earlier Mk15's start with PFS and the later Mk15s start with OHM

I wonder if "PFS" stands for parallelogram front suspension as that was the major change with the Mk15

the question then being is what major(ish) change would abbreviate to TA and OHM? if the chassis number letters do stand for a major change that happened

 

[LightBulbFun]

When running through looking for the late Mk12 blocks and I found NNO-J the reg block felt awfully familiar to me but I could not put my finger on it

until I came across this photo again in my archives  

 

and for those wondering the 2 Unknown Mk12s that I was hoping to identify with all that block finding

are if my maths is correct NPU156J and MPU532J  sadly neither show up on the DVLA but that's not the end of the world!

since I got the "HPI" tool I was able to run all the Mk12s I found and then it was just simple maths to figure out the reg of the 2 mk12s I knew the chassis numbers of but not the regs of  

(and indeed it looks LWC101J-LWC200J and MVW301J-MVW400J where Mk12 blocks just where sadly none show up on the DVLA anymore)

[Mrs6C]

Do  you have the rest of the article from Motor? I gather it ran to six-pages and came from the 17-Aug-74 edition. Possibly there is a copy of the whole thing in the RUMCar archive, if you have access to that?

[LightBulbFun]

1 minute ago, Mrs6C said:

Do  you have the rest of the article from Motor? I gather it ran to six-pages and came from the 17-Aug-74 edition. Possibly there is a copy of the whole thing in the RUMCar archive, if you have access to that?

from page 48 of this thread  (I really should scan it in proper one of these days)

On 5/17/2019 at 5:40 PM, LightBulbFun said:

so heres the invacar section from the magazine, I hope its all legible etc  it was a very interesting read, I cant say I have seen a Model 70 with that type of steering wheel setup before, all the ones I have seen use a much larger steering wheel with ribs in it, also 4! pedals... (I do know of 1 other Model 70 with a similar style slide along addition to the main seat tho)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mrs6C]

Great! Thanks!

[LightBulbFun]

4 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Great! Thanks!

Np  

 

also in case you or anyone else is not aware once ya click on an image, you can click on it again to open it on its own in its own window where you can click on it to then zoom in to read things easier  

like such

click once ya get this

 

click on it again

it opens in a new tab like so

then you click on an area you want to zoom in on like so, which displays the image at full rez, and zooms in to the area ya clicked on, and then you can scroll up and down from there

 

[overrun]

What is the HPI site you are using now?

Sounds handy.

 

I know there was a thread on here before, where we shared these sites, but the one you were put onto sounds new to me.

[LightBulbFun]

24 minutes ago, overrun said:

What is the HPI site you are using now?

Sounds handy.

 

I know there was a thread on here before, where we shared these sites, but the one you were put onto sounds new to me.

its more a commercial level tool, and you have to plead your case to them, especially for VIN number access, as that can be used for bad things!

they say an actual human reads the messages, (tho im not sure how true that is given how relatively quickly I got access)  I used the grounds of invalid vehicle research, which is true  

and its cost money more than id like to admit! especially as the minimum top amount is £50+10 taxes

and you would think ah at 15 pence a look up that £50 of credit would last you a while well, you do 777*15 pence and you can see how thats not the case!  thats how many successful VRM/VIN look up results iv had, thankfully the unsuccessful ones dont cost me anything because that number is at 1397!

(side note its not run by the HPI guys, but one of the other guys that does the same sort of thing! and currently the way I have it setup, it does not do the whole insurance side of things, Im just interested in the DVLA data results  )

 

on the plus side as mentioned previously, many holes and gaps and things have been figured out thanks to it  

so I was very excited to get access to it and i'm still very happy about it despite the cost!

 

like for example it enabled me to find all the NI Model 70's, the private Model 70s and figure out the whole GEV-N/GPU-N flustercluck, turns out that mess extends all the way to the TVW-N block as well, it looks like a lot of the GEV-N cars where meant to be TVW-N cars, that just registered to late so where forced to be GEV-N cars because of the new centralisation stuff, and the TVW-N reg it was supposed to be does not turn anything up on the DVLA as sort of expected since it was never issued)

(I imagine when things suddenly jumped to Gxx-N when everything centralised Invacar was forced to give up its reserved TVW-N range)
 

[overrun]

Fair enough if you don't wanna share, mate.

Also, a lot (most) on here know much more about vehicles/DVLA/licencing etc than you seem to realise. Invacar stuff aside, it may be new to you, but usually isn't to the rest of us.

[LightBulbFun]

30 minutes ago, overrun said:

Fair enough if you don't wanna share, mate.

Also, a lot (most) on here know much more about vehicles/DVLA/licencing etc than you seem to realise. Invacar stuff aside, it may be new to you, but usually isn't to the rest of us.

im a little bit worried about sharing it, for fear of someone doing something nefarious with it

like I said its not free either, and requires you to jump through hoops and expenses to use it

so its not much good for the end user, unless your willing to pay £50+ just to look up 1 vehicle!

 

 

im not sure what you mean with the second line? I never claimed that people dont know about vehicles/DVLA/licencing? 

(in fact its thanks to @busmansholiday and @quicksilver knowledge that I figured out how to find/hunt for AC/Invacar invalid vehicle registration blocks )  

[LightBulbFun]

nothing like a surprise delivery  

had it arrive this morning, only posting about now iv confirmed who they are from  (this was a complete surprise to me! I wasn't told these were coming or anything)  but probably to the surprise of no one and as I strongly suspected  many thanks to stuart for sending me these photo copies that he managed to unearth  

picture quality still is not fantastic, but its a good couple less xerox cycles then on the virtual gaz website so I can make out some more details 

plus the drawings on the front are very cute  (bonus points if you can name all the invalid vehicles drawn )

it also made for a very interesting read as there is some text in there

I can actually make out the registration number somewhat of the Prototype Model 70 from 1967, PPL-E, stuart thinks PPL185E (from an even clearer photo he has, that one is for the big book )

which funnily enough predates what we suspect is the first Model 67, RPA451E (or at least we dont know of any Mk14s older then RPA451E)

weird to think of a Model 70 older then the Model 67!

its also interesting to note said Prototype Model 70 is on 10 inch mini wheels im pretty sure! (but of the style that predate the ones on TPA REV Dolly etc)

(although sadly as previously mentioned I dont know the gestation of the Model 67 so i dont know how many Proto-67s there where etc)

[Eyersey1234]

Talking about Motability I've just seen an advert on TV for them, I didn't realise they put adverts out. 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Talking about Motability I've just seen an advert on TV for them, I didn't realise they put adverts out. 

cant say much on that, dont have a TV here!

(nor do I follow motability closely, tho if I can get onto PIP It will be an avenue ill look into)

 

speaking of motability and that stuff its interesting to note that Both REV451R and UTW339R are from after July 1976 when they started closing the invalid vehicle service to new applicants

so I wonder if thats the reason those 2 at least where bought? ie their first owners needed the adaptability of the Model 70, but where suddenly no longer eligible for one

so went out and bought one new privately?

stuart did wonder if the sudden increase from Number 9 (LRL389P) in march 1976 to number 23 (REV451R) in November 1976 was from people panic buying on the announcement of closure, but I wonder if it was more buying because they had no choice sort of thing?

granted that does not explain why none of the 12 in between don't show up on my searches!

also even for panic/no choice buying, thats quite a large jump in such a short amount of time all things considered (between March 1976 and November 1976 the number went up by 12)

 

 

speaking of cars, had my 8th driving lesson today  

it went well was more of the same as per last lesson, but this time once we got to the destination we kept moving through the main roads etc so it was 2 hours of properly mingling with London traffic through stratford into bow and then home which was fun and nerve wrecking! LOL 

the driving instructor says im doing well for those wondering how he thinks im progressing, he says the main "bad" thing is I get a bit too close to cars that are parked on the road side, I think my issue there is im worried about in trying to stay away from the parked cars (the whole stay 1 meter away from the kerb/parked cars thing) that il lend up too wide and going/impeding the flow of oncoming traffic

but yeah otherwise went well, had the "fun" of London stop start traffic, and crawling along at 6Mph wondering if ill be able to keep rolling or is he going to stop and im going to have to declutch and stop myself! and then it started to rain for good measure LOL

its also interesting, how there's setting off gently, letting the clutch up gently giving it a bit of throttle and moving off slowly, and then there's at a set of traffic lights, where its once the lights go green it feels like you have to "Go Go Go!" so you have to while still letting up on/slipping the clutch, accelerate at the same time which is interesting!

and we also did more "high speed" 50Mph driving on the A106/A12 and I caught myself saying "weee!" as I went round a fairly tight bend at "speed" (25mph or so! LOL) or so and felt G Forces! LOL not entirely sure if thats a good or a bad thing that I went "weee" LOL does mean im enjoying myself  

have to say tho trying to change lanes/merge is rather "interesting"! having to check your mirrors behind you make sure everything is clear so you dont side swipe someone or cut someone up, all while also trying to look forward and keep an eye on traffic ahead, all at 40-50Mph!

one interesting thing, is apparently these days one of the things they test you on during the driving test, is you have to follow a satnav for about 20 minutes or so, so we practiced that as well during this lesson  

we also during the fast parts went up and down some hills, its interesting just how quickly you can gain and lose speed on inclines or declines that dont look like much, one moment your doing 45Mph, the next you're doing 35Mph and having to give it some more welly! LOL

 

anywho next lesson is on tuesday  (and for those wondering I have been revising for the theory side of things dont worry!)