invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, Floatylight said:

Not sure this is going to work as an FOI request as it's more of an request for an explanation rather than data.

thats what the later 2 questions are for  (the ones asking about when the status was first introduced and the second, how many vehicles the DVLA currently have recorded as "not taxed for on road use")

that way at least part of it is a request for Data no matter how you slice it! and im hoping that by getting them to look into that, that someone might find out just what "not taxed for on road use" means and is then able to answer my first couple of questions!

18 minutes ago, Floatylight said:

So if you were to ask as at this date how many vehicles are registered in the following categories that would be something which is not currently in the public domain but could be released.

What you need is for someone to explain, so it may be worth going down the department for transport route, I wonder if the best way is to go to see your MP and explain and ask them to write to dept of transport..

but yeah I see what you mean about it not being a request for data, although it still is a request for information and  they call it a Freedom of Information request, but most people do just use it as a means to get data, so I can see them getting complacent in that regard and are now only used to handling the sorts of requests that can be summed up in a spreadsheet!

if this FOI goes nowhere I think next course of "action" would be to just call the DVLA and see what the guy/girl on the end of the phone says about it (or ask them next time I or someone else has to call the DVLA for other reasons)

I figured id try a FOI first as thats the "official" thing to do if that makes sense

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, Amishtat said:

Alright, this is the last to go. For now, anyway. Really didn't want to part with this but hey ho, circumstances. Full history (and believe me, I do mean full) from new, this was bought new in Germany by a Warrant Officer in the REME and imported the following year, hence it's on a D. I believe it came off the road either in 1974 or 1975 and hasn't been back on it since. Original owner kept it until his passing in 2010,I'm not absolutely sure what happened to it thereafter but a mate of mine rescued it from a banger racer around 2012,he sold it to me about five years ago and typically I never got around to doing very much with it. Anyhow, it's probably time for it to find its saviour. In my opinion it isn't going to take a lot to get this back up & running, if it doesn't sell I'll just find a corner for it in some other place. Price? Give or take a bit, £1000, and it's in Essex. The pictures are admittedly not great, but it's dark in there.. Everything not attached (tail lights, outer sills, hubcaps) is with it. 

dragging this one over here cuz I noticed it shows up as not taxed for on road use

but I notice you said its not been on the road since 1974 or 1975

now one of the theories iv had behind the whole not taxed for on road use thing is I wonder if it was a status given to vehicles where the information on when said vehicle taxation status was either lost or not available for one reason or another?

seeing as it is on the DVLA checker the original owner must have had it transferred to the DVLCs computerised system back in the day sometime between 1974 and 1983, but perhaps never bother to tax it since it was off road?

so maybe although the car was transferred to the DVLA system, since it was untaxed at the time, no taxation info was transferred across?

(although Id wonder what stopped the DVLA from archiving it off the system, perhaps the fact its tax status was unknown prevented them from doing so?)

 

(also one for @Mrs6C since IIRC you own a bond equip (ACK888B IIRC?) that shows not taxed for on road use, do you know when it was last taxed or such? )

[Mrs6C]

9 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

(also one for @Mrs6C since IIRC you own a bond equip (ACK888B IIRC?) that shows not taxed for on road use, do you know when it was last taxed or such? )

I don't know when ACK888B was last taxed. It It might well have been back in the 1970s. Most of the other cars that came out of being taxed prior to the SORN arrangements being put in place show up as having tax due at a date, usually the first of the month, on the DVLA vehicle checker. That would make sense i.e. next due when the old one ran out. A few come back though with dates part way through the month, which is a bit odd! These appear to be the cars that came off the road earlier, so it could have been a different set of business rules applied to the earlier cohorts of data being migrated.

[LightBulbFun]

3 hours ago, Mrs6C said:

I don't know when ACK888B was last taxed. It It might well have been back in the 1970s. Most of the other cars that came out of being taxed prior to the SORN arrangements being put in place show up as having tax due at a date, usually the first of the month, on the DVLA vehicle checker. That would make sense i.e. next due when the old one ran out. A few come back though with dates part way through the month, which is a bit odd! These appear to be the cars that came off the road earlier, so it could have been a different set of business rules applied to the earlier cohorts of data being migrated.

interesting  (im guessing ACK no longer has a tax disk still in the windscreen does it?) do you know when ACK was last on the road that might give us some idea of when it was last taxed

but indeed back then you would just either let the tax expire or you would cancel the tax and get a refund for the remaining months you had left

this is how you end up with a tax due dates part way through the month, and it can even happen today as seen when I did the keeper transfer for REV (as these days Tax/SORN does no carry over, I think you can still cancel tax and get a refund, though obviously today you would then have to SORN the vehicle etc)

(as a side note I wonder if "vehicle status" still says "not taxed keeper change" when one is happening? as since the update I have noticed the vehicle status line behaves differently then how it used to) 

 

if my theory on it being for when taxation status data is lost or not available, it may explain why a lot of more unusual or special invalid vehicles like the Model 44 64 and 69's etc tend to show up as Not taxed for on road use, because a lot of those where probably part of the DHSS reserve fleet, so may have last been on the road before 1974, but were transferred to the DVLC when that happened, to keep them alive should the DHSS need to suddenly issue one of their reserve cars

but since they would have been untaxed since before computerisation perhaps this data never made it across?

[LightBulbFun]

looks my FOI request got a "response" looks like it went straight to getting a FOI number

which I guess is a good sign? they didn't ask me to refine anything or such...

 

 

also heard back from the DVLA on getting a refund for the V62

sounds like there going to send it back by Cheque? not really sure what a payable order is in this context I wonder if I can ask them to electronically bank transfer it into my account instead? 

(I really don't want to have to faff around with trying to deposit a cheque, or such...)

[keef]

33 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

(I really don't want to have to faff around with trying to deposit a cheque, although it looks like my bank has the option of doing it via its mobile app so its not the end of the world I guess)

I've paid cheques in via the app on both Barclays and Halifax accounts and it it very straightforward and clears quickly.

I think Lloyds also offer this facility (Halifax is part of the Llyods banking group, so no doubt is the same).

[busmansholiday]

Here's one for you Dez.

I owned GNU167H, a Sunbeam Rapier but by 1980 it was terminally rotten. So I found a "new" second hand shell and rebuilt it into it (over the winter of 80'81, and a three day week). As I also changed the engine, the Sheffield office gave me a new reg, FWB673H (had to have a Police inspection to ensure I hadn't nicked any bits). Bugger me it's still on the system despite being scrapped in 1986 when some **** drove into the back of it outside my house and shunted it 20 feet down the road.

[busmansholiday]

Or was it GNU165H, somewhere I have a pic of it....

[keef]

8 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

Or was it GNU165H, somewhere I have a pic of it....

Both GNU nos come up as not found. LBF did say the scrap is just a marker and the vehicles are still on the system. Not sure how you see the marker though.

FWB 673H

✗ Untaxed

Tax due: 
26 February 1986

Incorrect tax status?

MOT

No results returned

Incorrect MOT status?

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, busmansholiday said:

Here's one for you Dez.

I owned GNU167H, a Sunbeam Rapier but by 1980 it was terminally rotten. So I found a "new" second hand shell and rebuilt it into it (over the winter of 80'81, and a three day week). As I also changed the engine, the Sheffield office gave me a new reg, FWB673H (had to have a Police inspection to ensure I hadn't nicked any bits). Bugger me it's still on the system despite being scrapped in 1986 when some **** drove into the back of it outside my house and shunted it 20 feet down the road.

no trace of the GNU-H registrations sadly

but its interesting, because FWB-H looks to have been issued in period from July 1970 onwards im guessing they obviously never got a chance to use all of them up before changing to J reg from August 1970+, so then issued the remaining ones as age related plates (up until 2002 it looks like when they finally hit FWB999H)

but its interesting to see an age related plate that far back, AFAIK for new registrations you just got a current registration plate, but I guess things could have varied depending on the local office doing the issuing and the set of circumstances

back when it was still GNU-H did it end its GNU days still on a buff logbook or did it get migrated to the DVLC system by then?

FWB673H does have a scrapped marker but from the 1st of the 1st 1989 curiously enough (no recorded keeper changes)

[busmansholiday]

FWB was certainly scrapped before 1st August 1987 as I bought a new 205 to replace it and Mrs BMH beetle than had burnt itself down.

I cannot 100% remember for GNU what the log book was but I think it was a computer generated one because the only one I remember with a buff log book was my motorbike.

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

FWB was certainly scrapped before 1st August 1987 as I bought a new 205 to replace it and Mrs BMH beetle than had burnt itself down.

I cannot 100% remember for GNU what the log book was but I think it was a computer generated one because the only one I remember with a buff log book was my motorbike.

interesting wonder what that date discrepancy is about, did you fill out the logbook and send that off yourself or did you just give the logbook with the car to the scrap yard for them to sort out? (if its the later I wonder if it took the scrap yard 3 years to finally send off the V5? LOL)

I was wondering about GNU because

 the way FWB looks like it almost looks like as if someone had transferred GNU off the car and then in it place FWB was issued, so thats maybe how they issued a car new registration in your situation back then rather than create a new entry for it?

sadly my tool cant tell number plate history going that far back (mid 1980's is as far back as it seems to go sadly)

however FWB does have a Date of first registration of 15th January 1981 so it sounds like it was new entry

(but if it was an entirely new registration/entry ie like as if it was an imported vehicle id of expected your car to get a a W suffix registration because of how things generally worked back then)

like VNB590S, from 1976, but when it was registered by Heywood, it was just given a then current Manchester S suffix registration

but at the same time it was not uncommon for previously registered cars to get newer dates of registration when being transfered from its buff logbook to the V5 system, as @keef is all too well aware of! so It could be just a coincidence or perhaps as part of the registration change, GNU got digitised then immediately changed to FWB?

 

[busmansholiday]

I did expect a new reg for it as it had a new body shell and a different engine to what was on the original logbook but not for it to be another H plate. I cannot remember exactly what they said (it's almost forty years ago now) as the reason for doing it this way.

[Mr Pastry]

A few years ago when there was still a tear-off slip on the V5 to notify scrapping, I had a sort out of old V5s and duly notified of several cars that I had scrapped long before.   Recently looked up the numbers on DVLA and found that some of them are still current.  Presumably still registered to me, and I can't actually prove that they don't exist, so I could be liable for all sorts of things.

On the other hand, in another clerical error, they have awarded me a full motorcycle licence which I really shouldn't have.   But you never know when that might be handy, so I think I'll keep it.. 

[lanciamatt]

On 2/22/2020 at 11:49 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Yah according to my tool "KRW794" has been that Maxi's only plate, or more accurately since the computerised records began or that still exist

(we do know that the DVLA did archive some whole vehicles, so perhaps early plate history was one of those things archived to free up space in the 1980s or 1990s when ever they did this mythical freeing up of computer space)

also do you know when it gained KRW794? who knows how plate transfers worked back in the pre DVLC days perhaps it was like with keepers on a buff logbook, where that info was not transferred over when put on the DVLA computer system and you got the whole "such and such keepers since such and such date" on the logbook

(I also noticed KRW794 comes back as first registered in April 1977, so that might be adding to the strangeness, as thats probably the date it was stuck on the computer system)

 

indeed, if you transferred KRW794 off now, you would just get an age related plate, although if you can prove to them ROL471M was your vehicles original plate you might be able to get them to issue it to your vehicle

interesting that the V888 is free now, not too surprised by that, GDPR has seriously ruined the V888 and the whole "previous keeper" thing on the V5

id send one off for REV, but I know the details of all 3 of her previous keepers  

 

BTW speaking of registrations, its fun to note that all the NI Model 70's always have the year of registration also down as their year of mfg

so that means CXI936 which is the latest registered Model 70 I can find, registered 20-04-1983 also has its year of Mfg down as 1983! LOL, which means even after age related plates where introduced it would likely get a Y suffix plate if you were to re-register it with a british plate LOL (sadly not quite "new" enough for a prefix plate that would be whacky!)

 

although obviously if I was dealing with such a situation (and I had to give up the NI plate), id make sure the year of Mfg is corrected to the actual year of mfg for that vehicle!

 

I do wonder about these NI Model 70's because they show up in most 3rd party tools, but (apart from LOI6831 which we suspect is a special case) wont show up on the DVLA checker itself for some reason, I do wonder what would happen if you V62ed one, or even still had the V5 for one etc

I guess we will find out if WOI654 GIG4834 (ex WOI4001) or SOI7570 ever become active again (the 3 known surviving NI Model 70's)

 

and finally a bit of DVLA checker fun, sometimes when I close my browser with a result still showing then open it the next day it doesn't quite load properly, and interestingly it gives me a Square format plate LOL (regardless of reg number length im pretty sure, its just a coincidence I had a short reg opened)

 

interesting that they do/can skip over things, (im still wondering where they plan to do the emergency stop! LOL)

I was wondering about that, because as mentioned, even in my 2 hour lessons due to traffic constraints etc we sometimes have to skip doing a manoeuvre or 2

so I have been wondering how it works with the much shorter driving tests! (at least with the driving test it would start in location and end in location and I would not have to drive to location and back home like I do in my lessons)

Q82WWJ is the reg of my dad's old merc. 

[lanciamatt]

He imported it from holland 

[lanciamatt]

It was a W115 model, 1976 model year 

[lanciamatt]

What are the odds that you were checking reg numbers and that one came up lol.

[LightBulbFun]

31 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

A few years ago when there was still a tear-off slip on the V5 to notify scrapping, I had a sort out of old V5s and duly notified of several cars that I had scrapped long before.   Recently looked up the numbers on DVLA and found that some of them are still current.  Presumably still registered to me, and I can't actually prove that they don't exist, so I could be liable for all sorts of things.

as mentioned back then when you did that, it did apply the scrapped marker, but the vehicle stayed on the system, it was not hidden like it is today when a car gets a CoD issued

so your vehicles probably do have appropriate scrapped markers, and you don't have anything to worry about regarding being liable for anything etc  

46 minutes ago, busmansholiday said:

I did expect a new reg for it as it had a new body shell and a different engine to what was on the original logbook but not for it to be another H plate. I cannot remember exactly what they said (it's almost forty years ago now) as the reason for doing it this way.

yeah, another interesting thing, is FWB does not have an import marker,

one thing I have noticed is a lot of vehicles which are either reclaimed reg jobbies or re-regged jobbies at a later date under an age related plate

all have import markers even ones that where very much not imports like LKE635E for example has an import marker, I assume down to the fact it would have been a V55/5 jobby like an import would be

now sadly i dont know how far back this anomaly goes but for example SNO40 an Invacar new era that was suspected  reclaimed reg "V765" jobby from november 1983 does have an import marker (however PPC150 and 418GTK both slightly earlier suspected reclaimed reg jobbies dont have import markers, so perhaps about then is when the anomaly first cropped up? in that case FWB does pre date it)

but VNB590S also has an import marker, however given its possible  NI connections that may be genuine!

(however checking some other later reclaimed reg jobbies from 1984/85 and one from 1997, MY376, and those don't have import markers so go figure!)

14 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

Q82WWJ is the reg of my dad's old merc. 

13 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

He imported it from holland 

10 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

It was a W115 model, 1976 model year 

6 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

What are the odds that you were checking reg numbers and that one came up lol.

I had it open from the day before that post, as you mentioned it in another post and I was just checking out its details given its slightly unusual nature  

 

[lanciamatt]

We sold it in 1986 due to rot, was reversing off drive and something sheared off front suspension. Was just used for short runs then till mot run out, then a guy from Huddersfield I think bought it. It took me years to find out the reg as my dad couldn't remember it, only last bit WWJ.when I eventually found it out, I rang dvla to try find some info on car if it was still about etc. Turns out it's still registered to him, the guy that bought it never did anything with log book.

[keef]

On 22 February 2020 at 11:49 AM, LightBulbFun said:

Yah according to my tool "KRW794" has been that Maxi's only plate, or more accurately since the computerised records began or that still exist

 

Was it possible to put a private plate on a new car back in 1974?

The only paperwork showing ROL471M is the receipt from the waxing. I have the bill from BL made out to a Berks dealer, but this doesn't show a reg. Presumably as registration was carried out by the supplying dealer, although the Berks issued receipt (different dealer) shows KRW794 . ROL471L is a Birmingham issue which suggests she was registered before the supplying dealer sold her, which is odd, but not unheard of. If cars couldn't be gotten direct from the factory dealers often swapped cars with other dealers to fill orders.

[LightBulbFun]

19 minutes ago, keef said:

Was it possible to put a private plate on a new car back in 1974?

The only paperwork showing ROL471L is the receipt from the waxing. I have the bill from BL made out to a Berks dealer, but this doesn't show a reg. Presumably as registration was carried out by the supplying dealer, although the Berks issued receipt (different dealer) shows KRW794 . ROL471L is a Birmingham issue which suggests she was registered before the supplying dealer sold her, which is odd, but not unheard of. If cars couldn't be gotten direct from the factory dealers often swapped cars with other dealers to fill orders.

I assume so, I dont know for sure sadly, but I know it has been possible for a long time to register a car from the get go with a private/cherished registration mark (although how you go about doing it im not sure!)

you mean ROL471M right? BTW on that note I noticed the ziebart receipt shows a VIN number (good for DVLA evidence btw )  I assume you have checked that against KRW and checked it matches? (looks like it more or less matches on my end)

if it does etc then that proves the car would have been issued ROL471M before I guess having KRW794 transferred to it relatively quickly

[keef]

Anyone on here registered a new vehicle on a private plate from the off? 

The Chassis number on all receipts for ROL471M (not ROL471L, don't know where that came from: corrected.  ) and KRW794 match.

Of course I will have to change Kory's name and sex, if I sell her plate. Somehow Rolf doesn't suite her.

[Mike D]

11 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

On the other hand, in another clerical error, they have awarded me a full motorcycle licence which I really shouldn't have.   But you never know when that might be handy, so I think I'll keep it.. 

If it's on your photocard licence it'll have 79 in the codes section which is for tricycles  

[somewhatfoolish]

It's always been possible, in the days of county registration offices you just applied to them for whatever and it was doled out on a first-come-first-served basis presumably for the standard registration fee.

8 hours ago, keef said:

Was it possible to put a private plate on a new car back in 1974?

 

[lanciamatt]

When we pdi cars at work most of time it just goes on the reg that the computer attocates, but some customers put private plates straight on them. But I'm sure when your registering an import it goes onto the run of reg numbers the dvla are using for that particular year, then once log book is issued you then change it. 

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, keef said:

Anyone on here registered a new vehicle on a private plate from the off? 

The Chassis number on all receipts for ROL471M (not ROL471L, don't know where that came from: corrected.  ) and KRW794 match.

Of course I will have to change Kory's name and sex, if I sell her plate. Somehow Rolf doesn't suite her.

assuming you can get ROL471M claimed back of course! otherwise who knows what her name might be! (probably based on from where you currently live/do the re-registering)

2 hours ago, Mike D said:

If it's on your photocard licence it'll have 79 in the codes section which is for tricycles  

good point and oddly appropriate for this thread  

2 hours ago, somewhatfoolish said:

It's always been possible, in the days of county registration offices you just applied to them for whatever and it was doled out on a first-come-first-served basis presumably for the standard registration fee.

he is asking about registering a private plate to a new car back then from the get go  what your I think your talking about is reserving a plate (or block of plates as was done with Model 70's)

like take TWC for example, Invacar would have gone to Essex and said "I need 100 registrations reserved please" and they would have got TWC701K-TWC800K reserved to them

however @keef is wondering, if lets say you had the private plate AC70 and you just bought yourself a shiny new Model 70, he is wondering if you could have your private plate directly issued to that car from the get go, or would the vehicle have to be registered first with a normal plate, and then have your plate transferred to it?

(I do wonder how private plates worked back in the 1960/70's did ya just have a bit of paper from the last county office that had your plate registried, saying "yes this plate belongs to Mr/Mrs so and so" and when you went to register a car with it, did ya just hand that bit of paper over to the county office clerk or what have you? LOL)

 

32 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

When we pdi cars at work most of time it just goes on the reg that the computer attocates, but some customers put private plates straight on them. But I'm sure when your registering an import it goes onto the run of reg numbers the dvla are using for that particular year, then once log book is issued you then change it. 

Interesting   I know with imports you can actually directly put a personal plate on a car, 

5000PE is an example I know of, imported in 2007, and directly had the personal plate stuck on it (it shows no previous plate history)

although how you go about doing so im not sure!

 

otherwise yeah you get an age related plate when you import a vehicle, I THINK they are still issued based on where you register the car/you live, (but the mighty dacia is G501ATL, which is a Lincoln registration but it was registered to @dollywobbler in Wales so go figure)

or maybe location related age related plates are only issued when you re-register a vehicle?

[keef]

56 minutes ago, lanciamatt said:

When we pdi cars at work most of time it just goes on the reg that the computer attocates, but some customers put private plates straight on them. But I'm sure when your registering an import it goes onto the run of reg numbers the dvla are using for that particular year, then once log book is issued you then change it. 

Any idea how this is/was done?

I tend to think your second part is correct across the board and every new car has to have a new plate, all be it on paper and maybe only for a day until the new paperwork is raised to re-register a car with a private plate, but I don't know how it works now or did back in the 70s.

[somewhatfoolish]

Transfer of plates must have been possible and by corollary also to new vehicles, otherwise how would HMQ etc have kept their fancy plates? I imagine it was likewise done by the county office, no doubt in exchange for a fee!

[keef]

3 minutes ago, somewhatfoolish said:

Transfer of plates must have been possible and by corollary also to new vehicles, otherwise how would HMQ etc have kept their fancy plates? I imagine it was likewise done by the county office, no doubt in exchange for a fee!

We know it is/was possible, but what we don't know is how it is/was done and if there was a new plate, maybe only on paper, issued or if you could register a new car ditectly with a private plate.