Old cars in accidents

[Mash]

Last night my colleague was involved in a fairly nasty accident about 2 minutes after he left work. For a while now some knobheads in ropey Imprezas have been using the industrial estate roads as a racetrack in the evening and one of them cleaned Richard up last night in a pretty much head on crash because the twat was doing about 60 and lost it on a corner trying to avoid another vehicle. It looked very serious to start off woth all the fire crews and paramedics but he's not too bad as the airbag worked and they let him come home from the hospital later but naturally his car is a mess and the fire brigade have cut the roof off it.This leads me on to my musing because it really shit me up. I was on the scene just after it happened and if my boss hadn't held me back a few moments it could have been me instead. Rich had a 52 plate Corsa which stood the impact pretty well but I dread to think how my 84 Mazda 323 would have performed.I'm not about to get rid of all my cars just like that but it really got me thinking after talking with my boss afterwards at how vulnerable we might be in these old shitters. I guess you just have to have your wits about you as much as possible and not think about the worst case too much. Any thoughts?

[Albert Ross]

I deal with this thought daily. I sit on my fuel tank. I have no side impact bars or airbags. I drive defensively, and keep my wits about me. When your time's up, your time's up. I had a nasty accident 10 years ago in a Sierra, towing another Sierra on a trailer. I jacknifed it on a downhill stretch of the A46 just south of Lincoln, well prior to the Dualling they just did. I ended up broadsides to the traffisc, and just getting it round in time for a Renault Magnum to remove the front end of my towcar. Luckily, he was unladen. The car behind was a K11 Micra. Two women and three tinies on board. It would have been worse if I had hit that. It was caused by a twat in a White Escort overtaking me on the crest of Potter Hill, at the Collingham juction, on the hatchings, with oncoming traffic. I squeezed onto the verge to give him space, but it was too late by then. He fucked off, I lost my Immaculate Mk1 2.0i Ghia hatch in Regency Red. Bastard. Luckily, the car on the trailer had a towbar, and it swapped over the cars and went home. 27 inches out of line, I drove it onto and off the trailer, removed the engine and box, and installed them into the one that had been on the trailer originally. It did a further 20,000 miles before scrapping.......as a 2.1 Twin 45'ed towcar. It did me a favour really, focused me enough to buy my own house with parking for 16 cars. So I had more Sierras. apparently they folded badly, crushing occupants, but this one saved my life. D354THD, RIP. I still have a Sapphire on the drive, in honour of that car.

[Station]

I think you're okay in 80's cars. They're not as safe as modern cars obviously, but the majority had crumple zones and the doors didn't jam.One of my worst fears is crashing, getting trapped and then the car catching fire. I have a fire extinguisher, but it's never enough.

[ashmicro]

I witnessed (with some mates) a head on in 1989 between a W123 300D and a Mk2 Astra. The Merc driver walked away, the Astra driver was decapitated by the bonnet coming through the windscreen. While we saw it happen, thankfully we weren't THAT close.So if must be an old shitter, perhaps a big old shitter is the way.

[Pillock]

Whilst there's a lot of emphasis on Euro-NCAP tests these days and all cars are pretty much guaranteed to be as safe as they can be, with older stuff it's often down to luck and the skill of the designer.Nobody forced anyone to build in crumple zones back then so if one happened to be formed by accident, brilliant. Some cars were just better built, I'd still rather be in a 80s Volvo than a similarly sized new Hyundai or something in an accident.Remember rust just disintegrates in an accident too, so if you're driving round in something that barely passes the MoT every year you're much worse off than in the same car in better condition.

[dollywobbler]

I just accept that I'm not in the safest of cars and like a biker, a sense of self-preservation means I tend to keep my wits about me. I've had someone plough into the back of the 2CV and my seat came off the runners. Reckon I'd've ended up with whiplash if that hadn't happened - ie I'd been in a modern.I've had some very near misses in my time but being very aware is a much better defence that yacking into your mobile, ignoring everything that's going on around you and hoping that your 'safe' euromobile will protect you if the worst should happen. It's amazing how often you can avoid an accident just by working out what could go wrong - ie watching people at junctions like a hawk assuming that they might do something daft (like pulling out in front of you when you're doing 60mph). Happens quite a lot.You can't prevent every accident like this, I'll happily accept that. A friend got smashed into by a BMW which came through the central reservation on the A23. Hit her 2CV just behind her seat, threw her into a spin, the 2CV rolled twice and pretty much fell apart. She opened her door and walked away. Sometimes luck is a factor too. A few inches further forward and she could now be playing a harp.What are you going to do though? Worry about every danger and you'll end up sitting in your house scared to go anywhere. Which is silly because 100% of household accidents occur in the home.

[r.welfare]

Some very sensible things being said here. I drive - probably about 20,000 miles a year - a 16-year-old large French car which definitely doesn't have any airbags, probably doesn't have side impact protection (Pug PK gurus differ on this point), but does have ABS and excellent active safety performance (i.e. stability and roadholding).So I drive defensively, leaving large gaps (and cursing 320d drivers who cut into them on a regular basis), being aware of what climatic conditions will do to the handling, roadholding and braking distances, etc. I also try to avoid single-track roads during daylight hours - at least you can see oncoming full-beams that much earlier at night.That said, my wife's car - while still pretty shite by today's standards - has 4 airbags, ABS, side-impact bars and a 4-star Euro NCAP score. Do I feel happier about her and my daughter driving that than a 405? You betcha. But then again, all I can hope is that she drives in such a way (and she does) to avoid trouble, rather than rely on the safety features if the crunch comes.I must admit that my own thoughts around crashing are more along the lines of "What would I replace it with?", "The insurance company would never pay out what I've spent on it", etc. I just hope that my current run of luck - been driving since 1994 and never had an accident - holds up as long as possible.

[55bloke]

It's a worry, but what can you do? You make a choice to drive an old car coz you like it's looks, inividuality, character, and economy, so you just have to accept the drawbacks!

[FredTransit]

Ok I don't like looking at this, but 5 years on it's about bearable.

 

 

and the before

 

 

19 years old at the time, loaded and driven by an experienced driver, with a passenger, this happened in France. A French lorry driver fell asleep at the wheel, shoved the luton up the bank, it flipped over, was hit again and pushed up the motorway ripping off most off the body, throwing the load over three lanes. Despite not wearing seat belts, the driver kicked out the windscreen and the walked away. Yes, the passenger had 2 compressed vertebrae, the driver two broken arms (he turned the steering wheel into a banana).

 

Hand on heart, I do not think a newer van would have helped them any more than this solid metal one. I was following them up till the services before, then went in front of them so they knew where to turn off the motorway.

[trigger]

Shit me At least they got out alive!I've been thinking about this myself now I've got the 02, My wife will be using it for work which worries me slightly as it hasn't got all the modern safety features her Puma does, Fortunately though her work is only a 2 mile drive through town centre traffic.

[FredTransit]

Well the Mk2 has none of the followingAirbagsSide Impact BarsCrumple Zonesand there might as well have been no seat belts cos they weren't wearing them. So, I would far sooner be in a well maintained Mk2 than a badly maintained 10 year old van. Once had a BMW try to turn right through a Mk2, the car was written off, the van drove home. You can witter on all you like about older cars and vans not being as safe, but if I was going to get arse ended by a 40 footer, I know what I would like to be driving.

[Milford Cubicle]

I witnessed (with some mates) a head on in 1989 between a W123 300D and a Mk2 Astra. The Merc driver walked away, the Astra driver was decapitated by the bonnet coming through the windscreen.

That's horrid! Transit's a bit grim too.My 405 has an airbag, probably a bit knackered due to being nigh-on 14 years old though.I feel a bit ill at ease in it sometimes, as I know it's quite a lightly built car.Weirdy I feel a bit more confident in the 23-year old Audi, which has no safety features worth mentioning - I think it 'feels' like a bigger car because of the long bonnet and low seating position.

[nigel bickle]

Mmmm.Try riding a m/cycle to feel vulnerable, in central London perhaps?

[andrew e]

No ones mentioned seating postion - you can have the safest 5* ncap car in the world - if you sit a foot from the wheel like your at your dining table its game over. Proof I think was my AX / Tipper interaction 12 years ago, sunvisors under the Tipper flap

[FredTransit]

Mmmm.Try riding a m/cycle to feel vulnerable, in central London perhaps?

No thanks, and I am particularly at a loss as to why anybody would want to go out on a push bike, at least with a motor bike you have a bit of power to get away from trouble.

[Pillock]

Trouble with NCAP is it's all bollocks now.Manufacturers know what NCAP tests for, and how to make cars that pass NCAP tests.If the tests were changed - angle of impact, speed, position of obstacle - many cars would get far lower ratings as the untested parts are just as flimsy as they were 15 years ago.I can make a car stand up well to a 30mph front impact. It might crumble like a cheesecake in a washing machine if it flips onto it's roof though but NCAP doesn't worry about that.

[trigger]

If you want to see an eye opener look at this video from Fifth Gear...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeDjz4Eg7xQ

[andrew e]

Mrs E has a 306 cabriolet in the same colour as the 5th gear flipper, dosen't worry her in the slightest as she has no intention to crash it

[STUNO]

I saw a head-on between an early Honda Civic and a 60's Humber Snipe some years ago at about 50mph. All I can say is that might is right, the Snipe occupants suffered minor injuries , and I saw the Civic occupants sort of draped out the tailgate before being bagged up for removal. Made me think about small cars and accidents. But what if two Snipes hit!

[andrew e]

But what if two Snipes hit!

Pre 68 BANGERZ GOLD I reckon

[FredTransit]

Don't get me on small cars. Haven't driven the escort yet and that's about as small as I want to go. Vulnerable is not big enough a word.....

[dollywobbler]

Don't get me on small cars. Haven't driven the escort yet and that's about as small as I want to go. Vulnerable is not big enough a word.....

Meh. You've got to live a bit. Try driving a Mini! I mean, I generally try to avoid doing so, mainly from a comfort point of view. So I use my 2CV instead, which has a fine safety record. As long as you don't crash.

[garethj]

Mmmm.Try riding a m/cycle to feel vulnerable, in central London perhaps?

I did for several years, up until last September when I changed job. It sharpened my riding and driving up a lot.

I just accept that I'm not in the safest of cars and like a biker, a sense of self-preservation means I tend to keep my wits about me.

What he said. Luck plays a part in any accident, I've survived a 70mph crash into an oncoming car that crossed the central reservation. NCAP etc would say "no chance" but my lucky rabbit's foot must have been sweating because I walked away with only a tiny cut on my hand.If you want the best chance of survival in a crash, take some training at observation and understanding hazards, bike training concentrates on this more than car training I'd say.Sadly, this involves effort, which is why most choose the car with some NCAP stars and drive around while on the phone or gazing into the middle distance

[FredTransit]

Don't get me on small cars. Haven't driven the escort yet and that's about as small as I want to go. Vulnerable is not big enough a word.....

Meh. You've got to live a bit. Try driving a Mini! I mean, I generally try to avoid doing so, mainly from a comfort point of view. So I use my 2CV instead, which has a fine safety record. As long as you don't crash.

I did, and wouldn't do it again. Nasty little things, like sitting on the floor. Have to say by the way driving an armoured van does give you an unrealistic impression of being invincible!

[Albert Ross]

I bought a 2006 Focus for the Wife.....high starrage from NCAP. Makes me feel better if she goes anywhere. I guess it's a selfish thing.

[dollywobbler]

Have to say by the way driving an armoured van does give you an unrealistic impression of being invincible!

And that's the problem. These days, EVERYONE thinks that they're invincible. Yet I know of one bloke who got killed in a modern car because something in the boot (it was an estate) came forward and clattered him on the bonce.

[garethj]

I bought a 2006 Focus for the Wife.....high starrage from NCAP. Makes me feel better if she goes anywhere. I guess it's a selfish thing.

Is it better than saying "for your safety I've decided to book you some more driving lessons"?

[FredTransit]

Have to say by the way driving an armoured van does give you an unrealistic impression of being invincible!

And that's the problem. These days, EVERYONE thinks that they're invincible. Yet I know of one bloke who got killed in a modern car because something in the boot (it was an estate) came forward and clattered him on the bonce.

Now you see that is never likely to happen to me with the bullion van, the armoured bulkhead would stop anything that was flying about the back! I know what you mean though....

[Albert Ross]

She's a bloody good driver, it's the other cunts I don't trust. She's a better driver than me TBH.

[pompei]

I guess that when I'm out in the Fiat 500 I'm probably the most vulnerable car on the road - especially when being tailgated by an X5 or similar But I don't consciously let it bother me. Like they said above, it's a question of recognising the car's limitations and not being blase about other drivers and potential hazards. Otherwise it'd not be the immensely fun machine that it is. Having said that,I've never been tempted to put a car seat in it for the infant ...