Marina Shite (long overdue updates- lots more Marinas...)

[MarinaJosh]

I think it's a bit of both. The plastics don't age well. For my Bedouin coupé I had to piece the dashboard together out of parts that came from several cars and it was a right pain to fit and get anything vaguely lined up. 

Mind you, the same applies to body panels. One of the long-term projects needs replacement doors. I tried four different passenger doors and each one fitted completely differently. A friend of mine tried fitting a bonnet from a 1972 Marina to another 1972 Marina. It wouldn't fit at all. Makes you wonder how they ever built them!

There is a book in progress. A chap did write one many years ago which I have been serialising in the Marina club magazine. Just need the time to finish it!

[Mr Pastry]

@MarinaJoshCould you direct me to a diagram or photo of the Ital front suspension with telescopic dampers?  Just interested to know how it was done, as I have never seen one and I can't find anything online.

[MarinaJosh]

Here you go. The top mount has the standard backplate used by the lever arm shocks. The top of the telescopic shock then mounts to a bracket on this.

A bracket is bolted to the bottom arm, which the shock then mounts to.

This set-up was designed by BL Special Tuning and was available throughout the production run. It was introduced as standard when production of the Ital moved to Longbridge in 1982.

Similar aftermarket kits were made by Spax and Demon Tweeks. These had a top mount which bolted over the top of the original lever arm, you had to remove the valve from the lever arm shock.

[lesapandre]

Dear old British Leyland - why not do this from the start or early in the run? I expect because it saved £1.50 on a car with the lever arm.

[MarinaJosh]

Certainly an odd one, given it does transform the handling. It can only have been a cost measure. After all, they sold like hot cakes as they were and struggled to keep up with demand, so why bother changing it. Although it then makes the odd little details changing even stranger! I suspect the same applies for every car ever made though. 

[lesapandre]

Yes a cost v profit measure. 

[ETCHY]

5 hours ago, MarinaJosh said:

Here you go. The top mount has the standard backplate used by the lever arm shocks. The top of the telescopic shock then mounts to a bracket on this.

A bracket is bolted to the bottom arm, which the shock then mounts to.

This set-up was designed by BL Special Tuning and was available throughout the production run. It was introduced as standard when production of the Ital moved to Longbridge in 1982.

Similar aftermarket kits were made by Spax and Demon Tweeks. These had a top mount which bolted over the top of the original lever arm, you had to remove the valve from the lever arm shock.

Were any tested by the motoring press with this change fitted ?

Given that the magazines of the time always criticised the handling, I wonder what they'd have made of it with this fitted.

[ETCHY]

I do wish BL had done more to cultivate a sporty image for some of its cars in the '70's as whilst Marina's sold very well it might have helped their image somewhat.

The 1.8TC version with the cool wheels was a fine looking motor but BL as usual dropped it. The HL looked good but wasn't quite the same somehow (IMO). Ford were good at adding a bit of Sporty appeal to a whole range of quite ordinary cars by selling more racy stuff like GT's & Sport versions. Look at the Escorts & Cortina's. 

BL always seemed to just be happy to cater to a "Terry & June" type image for it's mainstream motors.

 

[lesapandre]

There was the 1300GT which was considered quite cool at the time. 

A Marina GT would have worked. I think for a time they were as has been mentioned selling as many as they could make - then demand dropped off and it was too late.

Funny old BL. Their cars were sometimes just a bit frumpy and sensible - but always interesting.

[Mr Pastry]

34 minutes ago, ETCHY said:

Were any tested by the motoring press with this change fitted ?

Given that the magazines of the time always criticised the handling, I wonder what they'd have made of it with this fitted.

My original question re the front suspension was because I wanted to see how the top link was done - did it in fact have a proper top wishbone in place of the single lever arm, hence possibly better location/different geometry? No!

Handling was better with the Mk2 but this was due to anti-roll bars at both ends, and I would be surprised if the tele dampers alone would have made much difference as the lever arms were quite effective.

We had a Marina from new, and I drove it(and mended it) a lot.  I felt that it was a bit over-bodied and the weight distribution wasn't quite right, and the suspension seemed very flimsy for such a large car, compared with a Minor or Escort for example.

[ETCHY]

22 minutes ago, lesapandre said:

There was the 1300GT which was considered quite cool at the time. 

A Marina GT would have worked. I think for a time they were as has been mentioned selling as many as they could make - then demand dropped off and it was too late.

Funny old BL. Their cars were sometimes just a bit frumpy and sensible - but always interesting.

You know i've just remembered they did do a Marina GT it was the Coupe I think.

Tbh though the fact i'd forgotten about it probably says it all. Nice but a bit lukewarm..

[lesapandre]

All kind of byways. Some 6-cylinder models in the Antipodes and badged as an Austin in the USA!

[Mr Pastry]

I was thinking about the 6 cylinder one.  That must have had interesting handling.

.

 

[lesapandre]

15 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I was thinking about the 6 cylinder one.  That must have had interesting handling.

Review here:

[MarinaJosh]

The six cylinder was similar to the B series in terms of weight. The B series is a heavy old lump. That’s one of the reasons why BL Special Tuning focused on the 1.3 Marina. Better handling and can easily be tuned to higher performance. It then of course went on to be very successful until BL pulled the plug.

The marketing was definitely lacking in ambition. For the Marina, the expertise of American Filmer Paradise was employed. Even then it wasn’t a hugely aspirational campaign. Ford were the masters here even if the products were even more archaic than offerings from BL, the man in the street could believe his 1.1 base model was a rally winner, especially so with Mexico, RS and all the other special editions. Pulling the plug from taking the Marina rallying is a good example of this. Rather than directly funding race teams, BL race teams relied on the income from Special Tuning parts sales so didn't have the cash to keep the Marina going in motorsport alongside the Dolomite and the incoming TR7. See also the product placement own goals in The Professionals!

BL viewed the Marina coupé as the lesser model, rather than making it luxurious and desirable, it was cheaper and sat further down in the range. I wonder whether they got too caught up in making/marketing it as a cheap basic vehicle for fleet buyers.

The GT was the TC version of the MK2 coupé. The saloon TC became the HL.

The inclusion of telescopic shocks was overshadowed by how outdated the last of the Itals was.  The car was a bit of a joke by then and build quality had really tailed off with steel even thinner. They certainly rot more! Saying that, it still sold well enough. Personally, I think it was one of the more successful latter day BL facelifts. Certainly more convincing (in my eyes) than the Ambassador, the Series 3 Allegro or the Series 3 Maxi. I have owned 1.3 and 1.7 Itals and they drive very nicely. Easily comparable with a late MK2 Escort or a MK5 Cortina.

The main issue with the handling as standard is the softness of the lever arm dampers. Thicker oil can help. This softness leads to excess body roll. The anti-roll bars helped, but telescopic shock absorbers totally transform it. With a set of Spax adjustables they handle very well- a set of these can easily make up for no anti-roll bar. It's the same with the back end- the standard two leaf rear springs are very soft. Fitting three-leaf springs from an estate or four-leaf from a commercial can improve things. Police traffic cars had thicker torsion bars and a four-leaf rear. Once the suspension is made firmer (plus a touch of negative camber), it's surprising what you can leave behind in the bends. The other big improvement has been the introduction of polyurethane bushes, particularly on the front tie bars. Of course it helps that there's usually nothing left of the original foam rubber ones!

[lesapandre]

A little bit of insight here...

"BL viewed the Marina coupé as the lesser model, rather than making it luxurious and desirable, it was cheaper and sat further down in the range. I wonder whether they got too caught up in making/marketing it as a cheap basic vehicle for fleet buyers."

I remember Donald Stokes being interviewed on BBC Nationwide when the Marina was launched. There was a phone-in I think or at least questions were put on behalf of the public.

One little old lady asked why they did not keep the Minor in production - and I can remember Donald reassuring her that the Marina was the new equivalent - perhaps that is where they saw the 2-door Marina - a kind of no frills Minor replacement.

The 2-dr had design input from Sir William Lyons who had a seat on the BL board. He favoured the 2-window side elevation over a 3-window proposal.

[MarinaJosh]

As we're on the subject of the coupé, it's time for the third distraction!

Back in June I received a message from Danny Hopkins at Practical Classics. He was looking to sell his Limeflower 1971 coupé and was offering me first dibs for £veryreasonable. Limeflower is one of my favourite BL colours, plus this is another very early car. It was built in May 1971, just after the Marina was launched. Presumably the first owners wanted to wait until the new K plate came out on 1st August 1971, a shame as it would have been nice if it was a J plate!

A bit of background to the car. Danny bought it in 2020 after it had sat in a garage since the late 1980s. It looked rough with scabs everywhere but was certainly solid enough underneath. The interior was excellent, but it was let down by a hideous pop-up sunroof.

When Danny bought it I headed over to the PC workshop along with the Marina club chairman, Chris, to assess it. We then got called back to help strip it down and did various work on it along the way. It was then ‘rebuilt’ at the NEC Classic Motor Show in 2022. Of course, the time pressure meant this was only really the beginning. At some stage it had been fitted with disc brakes and suspension from a late 1971 on car. Danny wanted it refitted with drum brakes and early front suspension for the authentic experience. Eventually, a complete set appeared on eBay so the Marina ended back at mine for it to be stored and the work carried out. It returned to Danny in winter 2023. He then had some fun in it, used it for a few magazine features, but as is often the way other projects were calling.

He had driven it a fair bit, although he advised me that when sitting in traffic it would run poorly and cut out. Sure enough, as we approached the McDonalds roundabout on the A505 near Duxford and the traffic built up, it started to struggle. This was an opportune moment to pull in and enjoy a piping cold miserable dinner. After eating, the traffic had settled and the car had cooled down. It then didn’t miss a beat all the way home, happily cruising along at 60+. Aside from the earlier problems, it actually drove very well. These were taken on the journey back:

What then followed was several months of simple and very satisfying jobs. Things like getting rid of overspray, finishing off the fitment of a Webasto roof (the best we could, no template, incomplete fixings, a hole that wasn’t quite square and seemingly bits from more than one roof!), fitting badges and replacing damaged or missing trim. It’s always rewarding seeing those odd little details being sorted which totally transform the car.

Mechanically it didn’t need a lot. The poor running when hot was traced to it running very rich. There was an odd mix of spark plugs too, some of which were different temperature ratings. The radiator was also leaking so a replacement was fitted from my stock. The other main issue was the gearbox which was very noisy and had lost synchromesh on second gear. A replacement was fitted from an Ital and the gearstick swapped to suit.

It’s still far from perfect. There isn’t a straight panel on it, a lot of that stems from some of the bodywork it had experienced prior to being taken off the road. Danny was let down on the paint job so ended up doing it himself outside, the sides are good but the horizontal panels have had some kind of reaction. None of that really bothers me. It has joined the ‘regular use’ fleet. Although it doesn’t get driven quite as much as the J reg saloon, it did come out regularly for the drive to work up until winter arrived and with the Webasto it is particularly enjoyable on a warm sunny day. Here are some pictures of it with some of the trim on. Since these the rear side windows have been taken out and fitted with the painted inserts and the stainless trim has been fitted under the rear side windows.

 

 

 

[MarinaJosh]

The fourth distraction arrived in July.

I had decided there was really only one more car I fancied- the earliest known surviving 1.8 coupé. I had known about this car since 2013 when I saw this photo online:

Even with the reg blurred it was clear that it was an early example. The early wiper set-up was the first obvious clue, the second (and most exciting to an anorak like me) was that the rear side windows showed signs of having a different trim to later cars. This trim appears to have been dropped around the time the Marina was launched and, up until this point, no such cars were known to survive. You can see it more clearly in this picture:

You can see there is a red line running along the top of the stainless steel waist-level trim. Compare it to my Limeflower coupé where the trim runs vertically and along the curved edges, but not the bottom edge.

I contacted the person who took the picture (I'm afraid I can't remember their name, if you're reading this apologies!). They kindly gave me further details and the road name in the background of the image helped me to trace the owner. They had only recently bought it after it had sat in a front garden for years. I did ask if he ever wanted to sell it to let me know, but alas it wasn't to be and a few years later it changed hands. Over the years it popped up every now and again on 'spotted' pages etc, so at least I knew it was still out there.

Then in July, the Marina club chairman contacted me to say he had received a message from somebody wanting to sell their J reg coupé. Knowing my interest in early cars he gave me a heads up. I couldn't believe it when it turned out to be the car I had wanted for over ten years! A deal was struck and a few weeks later it travelled up from Eastbourne.

A quick check round revealed it is in need of complete restoration. The upper body is surprisingly good and the front wings have been replaced fairly recently. However, the chassis rails and spring hangers are in a poor state. After living outside for years the interior is completely shot too. If it was a less significant car it would probably not be worth the effort!

What about that all important side window trim? Well, there's not a lot left of it! Fortunately, TC models retained trim all the way round the windows, albeit in stainless steel. This also featured on continental exports with opening rear side windows and a friend of mine in Norway will hopefully have something suitable.

The chassis number is 2401 which makes it the fourth earliest known Marina overall. It has a few other very early features still, including an early bonnet release cable:

No red line on the rev counter:

It also has the earliest of the three different types of front inner wing fitted in 1971. The line in front of the bump stop rubber is straight, around the time the Marina was launched a curve was added which meant the bump stop could be moved forward to accomodate the revised front suspension to counteract the handling issues on early 1.8s (a different upright, trunnion and shock absorber were designed which gave more negative camber, TC models were recalled for a different trunnion to be fitted although I know at least one which never received this modification). This still has the early type front suspension so I am intrigued to see what it's like to drive! I do have to go round bends more slowly in the 1.3s with early suspension, so I reckon this will want to head for the nearest ditch.

One nice find was the original sales receipt:

The seller told me it wasn't running. Once the battery was charged it fired straight into life and it runs beautifully. At some stage it has been fitted with twin carbs. These will be removed, along with the black and silver number plates!

It will be a while before anything happens with it, but I'm certainly pleased to own it after all this time!

[High Jetter]

50 minutes ago, MarinaJosh said:

from Eastbourne.

Interesting driveway at the end there! Can't quite ID the location tho. How many have you scooped up from here in total?

[ETCHY]

Great find.

I'd be interested to know how it handles too. I've always wondered if the early cars were as bad handling as they said or if it was just the motoring press being over critical as it was a  BL  product.

[MarinaJosh]

On 05/12/2024 at 22:56, High Jetter said:

Interesting driveway at the end there! Can't quite ID the location tho. How many have you scooped up from here in total?

Yes, he had a bit of a collection! Can't remember where exactly but it was next to a school/ nursery if that helps.

This is the only one that has come straight from Eastbourne rather than via somewhere else. The car lived near Bristol where it was first bought right up until the mid 1990s before it moved to Eastbourne. Strange for it to travel all that way at a time when they were worth nothing.

Sadly, the arrival of this one meant something else had to go to make some space. This meant the departure of the only non-Marina/Ital left in the collection, my Herald. I was very sad to see it go as I had wanted one for a very long time. It was also a local car all its life and I doubt I'll ever find one as good as this one was. Had never had any welding (nor did it need any) and didn't have a spot of filler in it anywhere.

[High Jetter]

30 minutes ago, MarinaJosh said:

next to a school/ nursery if that helps

Yup, thanks. Shame about thatb Herald, looks a good un.