Preparation of veg-burning machine

[forddeliveryboy]

Running veg below 5C causes problems, since the fuel is thick. Problems usually involve the fuel system developing air leaks, which have these results:

 

1/ Failure to start, let alone proceed. If you're lucky, 10 minutes with some diesel added to the filter and petrol to the tank will sort things out long enough to reach the diesel pumps.

2/ Borked starter motor, then lying on back in the slush trying to find the hidden securing bolt.

3/ Battery lunches itself sooner than it would've.

4/ Highly pissed off you. Irascible females demanding money. General head-wall connection.

4/ Freezing to death somewhere there's no mobile signal and where the only nearby human farmstead is guarded by Fangs.

 

Having learnt the hard way about air leaks into fuel systems and the time spent sorting out the problem, I quickly learnt to pre-prep a car which is to be used through winter on plant oil. It usually takes about an hour and prevents probs when the weather's at its worst.

 

So definitely:

 

1/ Remove inline restrictions. In tank strainer best punctured with at least a couple of 8mm sized holes.

2/ Fit http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/5-x-Large-inline-fuel-filters-diesel-Bio-plant-hgv-forklift-filter-8-10mm-/171163995430?hash=item27da2b4d26:g:pM0AAMXQWzNSdNGU somewhere under the bonnet if you don't know how clean the inside of the tank is, or don't always filter out BCBs (burnt crispy bits) from wvo.

3/ Use correct fuel hose clips on every joint.

4/ Carry spare fuel filter and a pint of diesel in the car, along with the tools/torch to replace. My filters are replaced every 6k, but have known them go 20k+ on veg, Better safe than sorry though.

5/ Preferably use rapeseed oil - it doesn't carbon up the injectors (GM Soya does) and stays liquid below -10C (GM-S starts to gel at around 4C). It's less viscous at all temps and combusts better.

6/ Be sure cylinder compression is good, the GPs are working and the injector spray pattern isn't fubar. Last thing you want is incomplete combustion = ring gummiing = less compression = more ring gumming = polymerised sump oil. If a car doesn't start and run perfectly on diesel, there's even less chance it will on veg.

7/ Listen for any air inrush when removing the fuel cap, if so then the tank breather has clogged. Solution? Drill 2mm hole in cap.

 

8/ Spend a few minutes googling for probs related to your own vehicle - eg restrictive supply pipe in sender on VAG made around 2000, sorted in 5 mins. Addition of baffle/insulation to MB fuel filter, to prevent wind chill in winter. 4v/cyl MB dodgy fuel line O-rings, saddle tanks with undersized balance pipes on C-class. MB blowing fuel delivery valve seals if using unheated fuel when cold. Various Jap stuff with restrictive banjo bolts with internal gauze. VAG thermo valve - I araldite a small coin into the hole once it's chucked away.

 

Optionally:

 

1/ Loop the return pipe - this involves adding a couple of Ts to the supply and return line, joining them. Returning, warmed oil is sent into the supply line. Superb for <20 mile journeys, fine on longer ones.

2/ Fit larger bore supply line from sender to filter, or twin the existing one. Massive difference for more powerful engines. The Audi 5 pot seems to slurp the fuel very fast when fttf, even if can average 50mpg overall.

3/ Fit fuel preheater, old fphe from combi boiler works well or off-the-shelf from biotuning. Or if you're a tight sod then adapt a coolant/engine oil exchanger with an Eckes adaptor. The difference is night and day, come October. Forget 12v electrical heating - it's like pissing into the wind.

4/ Ultimate luxury is a mains-powered engine preheater - about £100 on ebay.

5/ Add 0.15% acetone to the tank, improves combustion and economy.

 

You can thin veg with petrol up to a point, but much over 8% can start to create vapour locking and more non-starting and poor running/FTP. Adding diesel works better but you add 3-4x more. I tend to use 5-10% diesel depending on engine/fuel system with up to 4-5% petrol when it's below -10C. Perhaps 1% at freezing point. Even a very small amount of added diesel is reputed to prevent IP seals from failing prematurely.

 

Two otherwise identical cars can behave quite differently on veg, I had one which started and ran with no mods other than a looped return through winter of 2010 when it was -18C overnight and sub-zero for weeks, the exception rather than the rule.

 

12/ Print this off and keep in glovebox, so you can remind yourself how irriiating fdb is when you're stranded miles from anywhere.

 

Useful - http://www.biotuning.co.uk/ShopFilters.htm

[Cavcraft]

In Chester:

 

Put veg oil in car

Car doesn't start

Swear

Swear a lot more

Put petrol in it

Go to work.

[Lacquer Peel]

I'm convinced that the 1.9 VAG distributor pump TDI/SDI engine is the best for straight veg use out of the box, it just works to the extent that I'm sure they designed it for running on plant oils. They're the only vehicles I've seen with 'biodiesel' written inside the fuel flap.

[320touring]

A useful guide:)

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm convinced that the 1.9 VAG distributor pump TDI/SDI engine is the best for straight veg use out of the box, it just works to the extent that I'm sure they designed it for running on plant oils. They're the only vehicles I've seen with 'biodiesel' written inside the fuel flap.

 

Anything German post-93 ish is designed with plant oil in mind, they've been selling it on the forecourt alongside dino for years. It could be the long-stroke of the VAG 4 which makes it even better. But the pre-TDi ones were nasty until warmed up, so probably the clever electronics too. Still to work out why the 5-cyl versions are sods to start even on just 70%. Wonder if the pre-TDi versions were as bad?

 

Never had a prob with a PSA either, tbf. And prefer the sweet XUD when driving, if not when under the bonnet. Mercedes OM60x are the best for starting and running from cold - it's like it's mid-July even when -10C. Veg helps make up for lack of torque low down with the 6 cylinder ones.

 

Veg is far cleaner fuel than dino - the problem is modern fuel systems. Once removed a mate's cylinder head and the chambers were like new inside, compared with running on dino-juice.

[Partridge]

Veg burning you say?

[Lacquer Peel]

The 2.5 TDI is an utter bastard to start on high percentages of oil, even in the summer. I wouldn't consider one for straight oil use again.

 

XUDs are great but they're aren't as efficient (waste oil is a finite resource and getting hard to find), the plastic filter housings are crap and they chug on oil when first started, the VAG 1.9 TDI's electronic pump timing takes care of that.

[Taff]

FDP, i don't know enough about running veg to critique and please don't take this as such, it's a genuine enquiry.

Diesel is currently 107.9 in my local Tesco. Given that low cost and all those potential pooh-traps you have signposted, is WVO still viable? I can't help but think it sounds like a lot of messy effort for minimal saving?

 

(Says a petrol user who is mildly curious about saving a few sheets and may be buying a derv Alfa)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[320touring]

I paid 35p a litre for my veg, so even with some spending for prep you'd save between 50-60%.

 

If its a JTD you're thinking of, I dunno wherher thay are veggable

[Taff]

I paid 35p a litre for my veg, so even with some spending for prep you'd save between 50-60%.

 

If its a JTD you're thinking of, I dunno wherher thay are veggable

I had no idea it was as cheap as that.

And I have no idea about the Alfa either but if I can find one, it will probably be the JTD.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lacquer Peel]

For a veg friendly Alfa diesel you need a 164 TD off Leboncoin.

[forddeliveryboy]

FDP, i don't know enough about running veg to critique and please don't take this as such, it's a genuine enquiry.

Diesel is currently 107.9 in my local Tesco. Given that low cost and all those potential pooh-traps you have signposted, is WVO still viable? I can't help but think it sounds like a lot of messy effort for minimal saving?

(Says a petrol user who is mildly curious about saving a few sheets and may be buying a derv Alfa)

 

 

There's a rumour that of all the CR dizzlers, it's the Alfa JTDs and MB ones which are most veg-tolerant. Rapeseed only, and increase the % from 30 upwards until it struggles or breaks. Taff, we look forward to hearing what % is possible. I think anything with a DPF is going to be a potential problem, though.

 

I've little doubt that a 156 would be very happy on 50/50 with no mods. Add a fuel preheater to bring the viscosity down to diesel levels and if you started and stopped it on diesel ('twin-tanked' it) then I bet 85% rapeseed, 10% diesel and 5% petrol would be doable through winter.

 

Waste veg is very cheap - 15p a litre for good stuff, if you look around. Free at other places - the price has been falling for a while now. Find an upmarket country hotel and the chances are there'll be shed loads of clear, like-new oil up for grabs. All you need do is settle and dry.

 

A lot who were fighting over the stuff a few years ago have given up because they can't afford a proper car anymore and as you say, diesel isn't much more expensive than new oil off a supermarket shelf. Factor in slightly worse economy, the potential for everything to go badly wrong (esp if you're new to the whole thing of pouring food into your fuel tank) and it's just not worth it, even if you can replace a fuel pump for £25.

[forddeliveryboy]

And if it all goes wrong, melt the cylinder head and other alloy bits with this veg burner:

 

[Lacquer Peel]

I can't find anything online about running common rail diesels on blended WVO that isn't extremely vague or second hand information, not that it can't be done - I'd love to experiment with a disposable CR diesel and decent breakdown cover.

[Taff]

I can't find anything online about running common rail diesels on blended WVO that isn't extremely vague or second hand information, not that it can't be done - I'd love to experiment with a disposable CR diesel and decent breakdown cover.

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Alfa-Romeo-156-JTD-2-4-SPORTWAGON-diesel-manual-No-MOT-Spares-repairs-/262163096473?hash=item3d0a236399:g:IEwAAOSw8-tWWCuY

 

That's what I'm curious about. I thinks it's inevitable that I'll end up with a cheap alfa, and soon. The F can join the X in the dry for a few weeks and if I can eek out a month or so on 50/50 in a £200 beater, why not? Realistically, the worst that will happen is a FTP, tow home and take MGF to work the following day.

[forddeliveryboy]

Taff, the later Multijet JTDs would be ones to avoid. Earlier JTDs most likely to be ok, £39 for a decent fuel heater would pay for itself pretty quickly once on 70% veg. Lots of revs when cold obviously not good - I've run Lucas-pumped diesels on high veg% without any bother, just taking it easy for the first couple of miles.

 

http://www.fiatforum.com/marea/109302-vegetable-oil-fuelled-jtd.html

http://www.fiatforum.com/marea/110945-jtd-glee-fastest-veg-oil-car.html

[Lacquer Peel]

Is the JTD slightly over-engineered because it was the first passenger car CR diesel?

 

[Taff]

I'm conscious that I'm diverting the thread slightly, but I found this site interesting for a veg-ignorant chap like me:-

 

http://www.biopowered.co.uk/wiki/Vegetable_oil_as_fuel

 

 

[nigel bickle]

Really interesting,thank you.

 

I'm dipping my toe in , by running the ex Bollox Fiorino on WVO or WVO this winter.

 

Diesel has always been the fuel of the devil, to me - So I will be proceeding with care.

 

Anticipate lots of breakdowns this January!

[PiperCub]

I paid 35p a litre for my veg, so even with some spending for prep you'd save between 50-60%.

 

If its a JTD you're thinking of, I dunno wherher thay are veggable

 

Thought of using veg in my 406TD (XUD9) but difference bet' diesel & VO seems too minimal to bother with.

Where do you get it for 35p/litre? In bulk? At a C&C?

[320touring]

mine is WVO. i buy it from a chap who makes his own biodiesel.

 

I filter it to 10microns using a sock filter and a rainwater butt

[Taff]

I think I have found a place in Bristol that sells filtered, ready to use WVO in 20 litre containers, just emailed him and waiting for a price.

 

I don't have the room to filter the stuff at home, so buying it ready to mix/pour is my ideal scenario

[PiperCub]

^^ That would be my preference too if I had a local supplier. 

[explosive-cabbage]

 

Where do you get it for 35p/litre? In bulk? At a C&C?

 

Where are you based? I sell clean filtered WVO at 50p/Litre...

[Taff]

/\ is that a commercial enterprise or mates rates, out of curiosity?

 

I'm in Bristol, I'm not on the cadge or anything, just curious as to what a bloke who advertises is going to charge , if that makes sense

[Lacquer Peel]

50p/l is the going rate for filtered WVO.

[forddeliveryboy]

Is the JTD slightly over-engineered because it was the first passenger car CR diesel?

 

 

Quite possibly, Vauxhall used the same tech I think... building the engines themselves - so Saab TiDs are presumably similar. But I've never heard of Vauxhall CR diesels on veg (or biodiesel, for that matter) - just Fiats and Alfas.. As time has gone by the rail pressures have gone up and up, one reason the earlier ones would be less likely to be trouble.

 

It's still unproven that any CR will live for long on veg, other than a few web links and a guy I remember on the vegoildiesel forum a while back, with a newish E-class who'd run on 70% rapeseed right through winter. But then again the VW TDis were assumed to be no-go for veg, ten years ago, on account of the direct injection and subsequent unburnt fuel. With any direct injection, you can't idle from cold at all, and idling for more than a minute on a hot engine isn't advised.

 

Viscosity with CR is everything - so rapeseed oil is almost an essential unless you want to be adding shed loads of petrol, with the problems that brings. GM Soya may be ok above 15C, but below 10 it rapidly gloops up.

[forddeliveryboy]

Forgot to add two important points to the OP, thermostat needs to be working well (cool engine = probs since veg needs more heat to burn properly) and avoid Crosland and Britpart filters if you're heating the fuel - the glue inside breaks down, so the IP fills with all the trapped silt.

 

Also, this: http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/mybbforum/showthread.php?tid=7229

[explosive-cabbage]

/\ is that a commercial enterprise or mates rates, out of curiosity?

 

I'm in Bristol, I'm not on the cadge or anything, just curious as to what a bloke who advertises is going to charge , if that makes sense

 

I buy at 29p/litre, cloudy and fatty from Steve in Dewsbury

 

I centrifuge at 6000rpm and heat to 125c to evaporate oil, and sell at 50p/litre. I use as much as I sell so my fuel and filter system pay for itself.

 

Here is the centrifuge I use, and expensive bit of kit!

 

[explosive-cabbage]

50p/l is the going rate for filtered WVO.

 

 

Yes, propperly centrifuged and de-watered oil could probably command a bit more, but for the sakes of keeping stock rotating I am more than happy to sell at 50p, making a little profit for myself and and still charging a fair going rate without being extortionate. Certainly couldn't live off the little pocket money I make from it.

 

On that note, I still owe you 80L Laquer Peel!