Taxi - powered by coal, nuclear and gas

[Tayne]

There's a reason for that. PHEVs tick all of the boxes for company car folk. There's some debate about whether they genuinely deliver any fuel benefits, and they clog up chargers which upsets owners of all-electric cars. They've sold very well though.

http://autoshite.com/topic/20767-taxi-powered-by-coal-nuclear-and-gas/?p=768607

[dollywobbler]

Oooh! Circular thread!

[Asimo]

Getting 100% out of batteries is very difficult, it requires that each cell is charged and monitored individually. This is just not practical when each vehicle has 150 or so cells in series. Exactly what can be done in practice depends on the particular battery technology: the Ni MH cells in my Insight are easier to handle than the LiON in the Prius for example. But it is neccessary to limit them to max charge of 80%, minimum charge of 25% to simplify the charging strategy and maximise the cell life, ie effectively the battery capacity is about halved compared to the theoretical capacity of all the cells.

 

Electric Motors have been really good for more than a century, they are almost perfect nowadays.

 

Batteries are still rubbish.

[HH-R]

Li-ion batteries don't like being fully charged and discharged apparently. I've noticed that laptop manufacturers are having a battery save option now that only charges to 80%. I switched it off on mine, probably why the battery is shafted.

[dollywobbler]

Li-ion batteries don't like being fully charged and discharged apparently. I've noticed that laptop manufacturers are having a battery save option now that only charges to 80%. I switched it off on mine, probably why the battery is shafted.

 

I mistakenly thought it was a good idea to let it fully discharge every now and then. I was wrong, as my last battery will attest. I tend to 'exercise' mine frequently, but only down to 50%.

[Taff]

stupid question alert.

 

Do the chargers come with a 3-pin, 13 amp plug, so I can drive it into my garage and charge it there?

[dollywobbler]

stupid question alert.

 

Do the chargers come with a 3-pin, 13 amp plug, so I can drive it into my garage and charge it there?

 

Yes. But it takes ages. 13hrs for the e-Golf, which I'm generally charging via my standard garage socket. Extension leads are not to be used, so I have to thread the cable in through the window. Or I could remove the 2CV so the Golf could actually go in the garage.

[forddeliveryboy]

I suppose it's legal to power your electric car with red diesel? Would it be legal to run the genny on the move on red, to power the car though? Obv assuming a nice, clean PSW output.

 

 

Even less efficient/green than chopping down forests around the world and shipping them to Ferrybridge to be burnt (60%-ish losses?), to feed leccy into a leaky grid (8-10% losses) to charge (with losses of a fifth to a quarter) your shiny EV - but hey, it's all about the silent pulling power of electric motion - innit?

[Lacquer Peel]

You could run it on bio or twin tank veg.

 

Am I right in thinking stationary engines aren't good on bio fuels?

[forddeliveryboy]

Depends how fast you corner with them.

 

The old Listers (both water and air cooled) are very good on veg. I think there's plenty of more recent stuff which is quite happy too, like Kubota-powered gennies, but twin tanking would probably make sense. Certainly the little Kubota-powered Aixams happily trundle around on veg.

[dollywobbler]

You could run it on bio or twin tank veg.

 

Am I right in thinking stationary engines aren't good on bio fuels?

 

I used to visit Cambridge Biodiesel, who had an old diesel generator running on veg. 

 

 

 

Even less efficient/green than chopping down forests around the world and shipping them to Ferrybridge to be burnt (60%-ish losses?), to feed leccy into a leaky grid (8-10% losses) to charge (with losses of a fifth to a quarter) your shiny EV - but hey, it's all about the silent pulling power of electric motion - innit?

 

I'm not sure arguing against EVs and their green credentials is worth doing when the alternative is also not so good. Let's dredge up ancient carbon, chuck a load of energy at refining it, ship it halfway around the world and put it into mobile power stations where only 25-30% of it turns into forward motion!

 

For the record, Nissan certainly advises against using generator-sourced power, presumably because the supply isn't 'clean' enough. I have seen a photo of a Leaf with a gennie though! Worst of all worlds?

[forddeliveryboy]

I'm not sure arguing against EVs and their green credentials is worth doing when the alternative is also not so good. Let's dredge up ancient carbon, chuck a load of energy at refining it, ship it halfway around the world and put it into mobile power stations where only 25-30% of it turns into forward motion!

 

For the record, Nissan certainly advises against using generator-sourced power, presumably because the supply isn't 'clean' enough. I have seen a photo of a Leaf with a gennie though! Worst of all worlds?

 

I was making the point that running an EV from a genny would be even less efficient than off the coal/gas/nuclear/biomass grid power. But it's important that the masses become aware of the fact that although EVs can make more sense - especially in commuter mode - but that the relative price of the energy has no bearing on its relative eco-credibility/greenness. It's just that the electricity board pay for the massive losses in burning things to make power, rather than the car owner.

 

A car of a given mass and acceleration is going to use a similar amount of energy up, whether it's from the remote burning of stuff in one big centralised fire or burning it on board a vehicle. It's the cleverness and efficiency of the design and engineering of the vehicle which counts more than whether it's electric or not. Until we've a 90%+ renewable energy grid, that is.

 

New/ish Honda petrol gennies all produce a decent true sine wave, which is what these EVs need, apparently. I should think there are others out there which do, but many don't.

 

http://www.jkovach.net/projects/powerquality/

[LC Torana]

You've just given me a mental image of the following lash-up:

 

Hit-and-miss oil engine (you know, the ones that go BANG rattle rattle rattle BANG rattle rattle rattle...)

generator out of a 1950s car

Deep-cycle batteries

Sinewave inverter

 

Wouldn't the neighbors love that!

 

Do those old engines run on veg?  Wouldn't surprise me.

[Taff]

Yes. But it takes ages. 13hrs for the e-Golf, which I'm generally charging via my standard garage socket. Extension leads are not to be used, so I have to thread the cable in through the window. Or I could remove the 2CV so the Golf could actually go in the garage.

 

Cheers, DW.

 

follow-up stupid question alert

 

That sounds to me as though the "rapid" charger mentioned earlier can't be supported at a normal, domestic home, have I got that right? Do they require three-phase or something?

[gtd2000]

Li-ion batteries don't like being fully charged and discharged apparently. I've noticed that laptop manufacturers are having a battery save option now that only charges to 80%. I switched it off on mine, probably why the battery is shafted.

I have this feature on my Lenovo laptop - turned it on by suggestion of my usage patterns.

 

The battery is almost totally fucked as a result...I'm lucky to get 20 mins when unplugged at 50% charge...

 

From my experience, I'd just charge it fully as I did on all of my previous laptops that never had any battery problems

[gtd2000]

I'm interested in EV's as a form of cheap transportation but only see them being viable for city or urban types due to range.

 

The obvious solution would be to use a standard "swappable" battery at fuel stations that can be pulled out and replaced with a fully charged one in a matter of a couple of minutes.

 

I'm sure they will eventually figure out technilogy that allows charging of the batteries in roughly the same time as fully refueling a fossil fuel vehicle.

 

A cheap chinese generator from Aldi in the back of the car might be an option for getting you home - the equivalent of a spare gallon of fuel

[Asimo]

http://www.leboncoin.fr/voitures/819824893.htm?ca=7_s

 

[dollywobbler]

I'm interested in EV's as a form of cheap transportation but only see them being viable for city or urban types due to range.

 

 

This is a frequently-encountered mindset, and I don't understand it at all. If you're doing over 100 miles a day, then no, EV makes no sense. An awful lot of people drive a lot less than that though! Take where I live. Town is a 25-mile round trip, so no worries at all. Most folk around here just drive from one village to the next, which is a handful of miles. A petrol engine is barely warmed up in that time. EVs make just as much sense out in the sticks, and the people who live there tend to be more likely to have a garage and/or driveway, so home-charging is easier.

 

I'm planning to take the e-Golf to Cheshire tomorrow. I want a second attempt at my northern roadtrip!

[Asimo]

Cheers, DW.

 

follow-up stupid question alert

 

That sounds to me as though the "rapid" charger mentioned earlier can't be supported at a normal, domestic home, have I got that right? Do they require three-phase or something?

Yep, rapid charging requires a serious, industrial, amount of electricity. Most domestic installations in the UK have an input fuse of 100 Amps, which limits the total power available to you at home to about 40kW single phase.

The heaviest standard domestic wiring is to an electric shower, a 10kW / 40Amp load.

 

 

http:/www.zap-map.com/charge-points/basics/

[Taff]

cheers Sorn. My interest is in saving myself money. My 60 mile a day round trip, with the car sat outside doing not much between 6pm and 6am would potentially suit an EV. The car does nothing in the company carpark all day long.

[Sealtainn]

I looked at EVs a couple of months ago and on the Arnold Clark website you can pay £6,895 for a brand new Renault Twizy or £3,488 for a 64-plate ?!?!?!?

Chap up the road has a Nissan Leaf and a wind turbine in his back garden. He has a 50 mile round trip to go into town for shopping and he swears by his milk float. I would like to have a go in one to see what they are like though

[tul66]

I suppose it's legal to power your electric car with red diesel? Would it be legal to run the genny on the move on red, to power the car though? Obv assuming a nice, clean PSW output.

 

 

Even less efficient/green than chopping down forests around the world and shipping them to Ferrybridge to be burnt (60%-ish losses?), to feed leccy into a leaky grid (8-10% losses) to charge (with losses of a fifth to a quarter) your shiny EV - but hey, it's all about the silent pulling power of electric motion - innit?

Shhhh, quiet or the eco Mafia will have you:-D

[Pillock]

You can pull 40A from a domestic consumer unit, but it needs to be wired all the way back on a new circuit. Posh range cookers need a 40A circuit for example. And then you have to be quite careful what else is on your 100A incoming fuse otherwise you get grumpy people having to dig the pavement up.

 

32A circuit will give you 12KW, if you have a socket by your cooker with a red switch that will be on 6mm cable so can pull all 12KW through (although it'll get a bit warm!). But don't turn the cooker on at the same time otherwise you're limited to 3KW through a bog standard socket.

[forddeliveryboy]

Most folk around here just drive from one village to the next, which is a handful of miles. A petrol engine is barely warmed up in that time. EVs make just as much sense out in the sticks, and the people who live there tend to be more likely to have a garage and/or driveway, so home-charging is easier.

 

 

'The sticks' is increasingly full of monied sorts, in England at least, and many are taking full advantage of the huge subsidies on supplying renewable energy to the grid - an EV is the financial icing on the cake for them.

 

While they work perfectIy fine in the country, I don't think EVs make any more sense where there are no jams and few if any traffic lights. It's in suburbia where congestion and stop-start driving dominate where electric propulsion surely makes the most sense? But I see most commuters being electrically-accelerated by the middle of the next decade, whether in the town, suburbia or countryside.

[dollywobbler]

Believe me. This part of 'the sticks' certainly is not full of monied types! I know what you mean though. Plenty of affluence out there in some parts. Again though, an awful lot of these people don't drive very far at all - local shops, community centre and dare I say it, even schools. I do accept that an electric car makes most sense in a city, but it definitely is not the case that it's the only place they make sense. 

 

There is talk of creating inductive charging highways. That would then open up major routes. I'm yet to be convinced of the science, but the boffins seem convinced it can happen.

[forddeliveryboy]

^ You're lucky! I'm hoping someone here buys a Twizy, it will brighten up the monotony of everything else on the roads and would be perfectly suited, size-wise, to the lanes. But I bet the suspension is hard as a rock, so no use on local washboard surfaces with foundations like an ocean swell.

 

As well as their 'Urban' model, they should do a Rural with pastel paintwork, room for shopping and more supple springing. They only take three and a half hours on a normal domestic socket to fully charge, the range is only around 40 miles. I'd say half those living round here could make good use of one.

 

It looks as if there are people developing batteries for better range, you'll avoid the Renault rental costs this way too, http://www.twizyowners.com/t/purchase-of-batteries/1162/5 Or buy one in Norway, where the battery is bought too.

[forddeliveryboy]

This makes interesting reading, regarding the Twizy (and other Renault EV) batteries. http://twizyowners.com/t/battery-purchase-of-your-twizy-battery/1117

[Tayne]

 

 

There is talk of creating inductive charging highways. That would then open up major routes. I'm yet to be convinced of the science, but the boffins seem convinced it can happen.

 

 

I've seen inductive charging work for courier robots in factories.

 

Or did you mean the science of making it work on our shonky roads?

[dollywobbler]

I've seen inductive charging work for courier robots in factories.

 

Or did you mean the science of making it work on our shonky roads?

 

Aye. That's the bit I'm most interested in. Mind you, there are folk trying to make solar-generating roads too. Imagine if both were combined! Fabulous. 

 

Have spotted that you can get a Renault Fluence for less than £6000 these days (plus battery rental). No-one will know what it is, and it makes Beyonce's arse seem rather tiny. Plus, French electrics. WCPGW?

 

[twosmoke300]

I would like to think that with the massive dc voltages involved and the fact that they are flagship cars at the moment that Renault have wired them properly . Bet they haven't tho