Exhaust emissions

[forddeliveryboy]

Ok, so we're maybe not as concerned about these as a Green Party Activist, but many of us do still value our children's health, even though we love Webers and Dell'Ortos and accelerator pumps, remembering the sweet smell of leaded exhausts (with their grey deposits giving a neat indication of mixture settings) with affection.

 

Recently the diesel engine exhaust, after years of development and improvement (improvement until about 1996, that is) has been branded as lethal as lead in petrol. I remember those in the industry in the late 80s swearing that the decision to move to unleaded was made in part by brown envelopes - the catalyst makers stood to make millions. Rover and Honda had some great lean burn tech which would have meant simpler engine systems and better mpg. Who could possibly benefit?

 

Beyond over-congestion of the road network (in large part caused by ridiculous amounts of slow-moving heavy freight transport) I see the problem being caused by engine outputs which have increased enormously and vehicles which have grown heavier and heavier. The emergence of the car as a lifestyle possession must be causing huge problems too within cities - so a massive 4x4 with an equally massive diesel under the bonnet is now seen with smart young females taking their children to school rather than pulling a farmer's trailer up a muddy hillside. Ok, the exhaust may be technically cleaner on a 2010 RR than a 1987 G-wagen, but that's a bit like saying modern TVs use much less power than the old ones, so justifying 50" screens. I regularly see modern diesels showering massive plumes of clouds behind them under acceleration. Old and worn buses run by private companies trying to eke out a profit from govt contracts usually belch smoke pretty badly, too.

 

So why has the diesel suddenly been highlighted as THE problem in towns and cities? Officially it's the attempt to keep up with EU directives, but could it be anything to do with the oil giants not making enough profit from making it? After all, it's kept quiet that the direct injection petrol engine also has particulate emission problems, but filters aren't even deemed necessary. And on short runs in winter, catalysts aren't working for most of the journey. But madam wants a 300bhp 4x4 to take the children to pre-school in, while she shops for baby food whose plastic packet weighs more than the contents? Fine - as long as she tickles the Treasury.

 

Aren't we just shuffling the cards as usual to make the man in the street believe we're doing good things for the environment and human health, trying to make the ludicrous green taxes more believable. Of course, all the while more and more people are dying of cancer. Surely the cost and complexity of the modern diesel would see its demise for most - why start taxing people more when all's that needed is a little education - bring back the old Public Info Films! Has govt lost all conviction, replacing it the profit-above-all-else ethic?

 

Does anyone on here know all about exhaust emissions, the size of particulates/how much more dangerous these tiny ones are to human health? Should we all go back to 1987 and run a BX/405 turbo-diesel?

[Pillock]

My (admittedly limited) understanding is the new fuss over diesels is the particulates are small enough to enter the bloodstream and cause problems, and they're smaller than thought so the expensive filters are pretty much useless.

 

All it really proves is there's not much you can do in lab testing, nothing shows problems up like millions of miles being driven per day. It also shows that knee-jerk reactions will make you look stupid in the future, OMG Ban Leaded Fuel And Let's All Drive Diesels has backfired a bit.

[JohnK]

I was checking the tyre pressures on my 2008 525d the other day, I left the engine running whilst I was doing so. When I was doing the N/S/R I was stood close to the exhaust and it absolutely honked to high heaven. So much so, I was convinced it would fail it's MOT this week on emissions and I was worrying about that.

 

It flew through it's MOT and the actual values were a lot less than the max limits. It did get me wondering just what the hell it is kicking out.

[Barry Cade]

I was checking the tyre pressures on my 2008 525d the other day, I left the engine running whilst I was doing so. When I was doing the N/S/R I was stood close to the exhaust and it absolutely honked to high heaven. So much so, I was convinced it would fail it's MOT this week on emissions and I was worrying about that.

 

It flew through it's MOT and the actual values were a lot less than the max limits. It did get me wondering just what the hell it is kicking out.

Yup, being in a workshop with 3 modern Diesels running literally brings tears to your eyes. Fords in particular seem to fart out particularly acrid vapour for some reason.

[steve_earwig]

I suspect whatever we drive will be bad* for us.

 

Incidentally, I seem to recall Ford had their own lean burn engine, that used to lean burn holes in the pistons. The British government (under thatch the snatch) wanted the lean burn technology but were overruled by the EU (i.e. Germany). I remembering thinking at the time how good* they must be as I'd not long been to San Francisco and LA, where cats had been the norm for years yet the clouds of smog were still very much there.

[Asimo]

The Diesel has become a problem because there are now so many of them in European cities. It has always been known how bad their exhaust was for people, but when air quality issues were last on the agenda petrol engines spewed lead loaded soot and that was a much worse problem. California has kept their eye on this ball which is why car Diesels are nowhere in the US. Makers have chased CO2 emissions targets with Diesels, one of the reasons their Carbon dioxide output is even lower is because some of their exhaust is Carbon particles. Most voters live in cities, once they become aware of something that endangers their wellbeing, that something becomes a political priority. quite right too. same thing happened in India with all of those two strokes.

[Bren]

Nitrobenzanthrone is one of the most carcinogenic substances known to man.

 

Present in diesel exhaust fumes.

 

The issue is that there are TOO MANY diesel vehicles now.

 

But when we are being dry bummed at the pumps it will always happen.

[forddeliveryboy]

Some rediculous ideas to cut down on emissions.

Offer those who dislike spending so much time in their cars a practical method of shortening their journeys. Some decent paid jobs away from London maybe?

Workable schemes to allow job exchanges with that other person who travels 120miles a day in the opposite direction to you.

.....

Lots more but you're bored now.

 

All good ideas, keep them coming.

 

No matter how polluting electricity is, railways are surely the only sensible carrier of freight? Our motorways are so stuffed full of HGVs, to the point there's barely room for cars at times.

[HH-R]

I think all the problems of pushing people into diseasels were known before the big shift happened, certainly it was no surprise to me when it was on the news/in the papers a few months ago that they were highly carcinogenic and NOx emissions were an issue. Presumably there was a CO2 reduction target set (by the EU?) and the shortsighted patch over a bullet wound was to get people into diesels.

 

Burning unleaded is undoubtedly terrible for living things to breathe in too but I can really tell if there is a diesel car about, when you're walking in a car park or something and someone is driving slow looking for a space, or if there's traffic waiting at lights.

 

Can't say I'm a fan, I'd rather have a hybrid. Brings its own set of environmental problems though... whatever we use for cars is going to be bad.

[Bren]

Always going to be pollution.

 

If it's not petrol or diesel fumes it's the smell of bullshit from the bureaucrats.

[HH-R]

The council round here seem absolutely obsessed with traffic calming measures on roads that no-one can ever remember there being a speeding problem on or anyone being hurt on. This means that everyone is accelerating 15 MPH > 30 > braking to 15 every few yards. There are fuggin HUNDREDS of things too. They like to create traffic problems with chicanes, which people usually speed up to because they don't want to get stopped or just blatantly drive through when they're not supposed to. The speeders/taxi drivers don't care that they're there and it attracts tailgating morons one safety issue is just converted into another. This isn't good for reducing emissions, keeps the local garages and suspension component/brake pad manufacturers in £££ though. Maybe they should think about removing these to reduce carbon emissions in built up areas and spend the money on installing/maintaining them on a few speed cameras or traffic police.

[Barry Cade]

 

Can't say I'm a fan, I'd rather have a hybrid. Brings its own set of environmental problems though... whatever we use for cars is going to be bad.

Strangely enough, I MOT'd a Prius the other day, which smelt like it was running rich...doesn't get an emissions test though. Be nice in 20 years time when the rings have gone and the batteries have died.

[Pillock]

Freight should go on trains as far as possible, and have smaller vehicles for the last leg. Trouble is, we now have loads of nice cycle paths thanks to Beeching so there's a dilemma, do you close cycle paths to put trains in?

 

They reopened a local train line (for people-trains) in Nottinghamshire in the 90s. The trains are usually packed (three car sprinters sometimes with standing room only) and buses started dying on their arses, that's surly for to be good news. Trouble is you've got one station instead of 50 bus stops so people end up driving to the station, because walking is for the poor

[forddeliveryboy]

Running on natural gas is even better, apart from the refill times for domestic pumps. It's piped all over the country, and when the Germans/Danes start producing synthetic methane from excess renewable energy we'll be buying their tech and introducing green gas into our network. Far more likely than Hydrogen cars everywhere I reckon.

 

Volvo made a few CNG cars for the UK market around the turn of the millenium, but it didn't catch on here. In other countries its quite widespread. I think there may be some with corgi mates who've rigged up a pump round the back of their house to fill their cars with, though. Cheaper than walking.

[messerschmitt owner]

and diesels running on veg run much cleaner than that mucky, smelly, oily stuff. Yet, can modern diesels run on veg, apart from Maccy D trucks, of course!

[beko1987]

Lots of commercial vehicles are being advertised as running on 'bio fuel' arent they? My company pushed this fact when we rebranded, I know tossco/asda to too. Cant imagine they just pour in neat/used veg do they? Therfore does the bio fuel they use (in mahoosive quantities) burn any cleaner than straight derv?

 

I cant wait for the warmer weather to start running neat veg again, makes me feel like I'm doing my bit for the environment!

[scruff]

Yup, being in a workshop with 3 modern Diesels running literally brings tears to your eyes. Fords in particular seem to fart out particularly acrid vapour for some reason.

 

I was going to ask if someone could explain why modern diesels honk so much. Not long ago I followed a colleague in a brand new Defender (which has a ford engine in it of course) and was physically sick from the stench it was throwing out the back. 

[danthecapriman]

The single thing that can be done to lower exhaust emissions is to ban people from doing the school run. Instead people should be walking or cycling to and from school, or even buses laid on for the job. The expenditure in bus running costs will be made back easily by not getting fines from the EU dictatorship for missing emissions targets.

A side benefit would be less child obesity because of the extra physical activity if they were to walk or cycle.

 

I've been driving around this week and really noticed it being half term. No insane parents doing the school run, blocking the local roads, nothing! It's been a pleasure to drive around!

[mercrocker]

Don't start me on the school run bollocks.....We have two back of us and the neighbouring roads are a fucking nightmare twice a day.   Make the buggers walk and clampdown on the stupid practice of parents cherry picking their schools on the basis of some OFSTED lies and driving kids 12 fucking miles to school.    Something happens to people's brains when it comes to taking their offspring to school in MPVS.....

[danthecapriman]

I'm in a similar position. I have one school at one end of the street I live on and another school at the other end! The parents are a right bunch of self righteous twats! They will think nothing of blocking the street (which is also a bus route) by parking badly, blocking driveways, double parking the lot.

 

It's amazing how nice it is to drive when the kids are on holidays/half terms. All local traffic, and to a slightly lesser extent motorway traffic just seems to disappear!

[2MB]

On the subject of veg burning, has an research been done into the particulate content and potential for harm? I know veg burning cars score very well on MOT emissions tests, but they fucking stink (according to anyone that follows me). The smell isn't dirty (like old fashioned diesel exhaust) or oddly chemical and worrying (like modern dervs with DPFs) or even unpleasant in my opinion, but it is strong. 

[PiperCub]

Don't start me on the school run bollocks.....We have two back of us and the neighbouring roads are a fucking nightmare twice a day.   Make the buggers walk and clampdown on the stupid practice of parents cherry picking their schools on the basis of some OFSTED lies and driving kids 12 fucking miles to school.    Something happens to people's brains when it comes to taking their offspring to school in MPVS.....

 

God how true! Back to catchment areas please, ie: you are in one area you go to this school. you are in an adjacent area, you go to a different school that's local to you. How hard is it? It worked for us, (we were having this very discussion at work the other week), if you mix the kids up, the best will always rise to the top and you will have all schools being good - note, good, not exceptional, average, poor, etc, but all good. If the kids are motivated enough by their own character and by their parents, they will do well wherever they are. All the cherry-picking crap is simply a cop-out to get votes from pushy parents who think their precious little darlings are a cut above the rest. Meanwhile, the roads will be that bit clearer (& less pllouted for your angels noses) without pyscho-bitch wally-trolley aiming competitive mums fouling up the roads delaying those of us that actually have a job to go to (or from).

 

I know some will kick off "But my Nathan and Charlotte are very bright and so much better than the peasants and I need to compete with my so-called friends and beat them" - well tough, move to a house in that catchment area then and stop whining.  

 

(& to anyone who suspects I don't have kids - you're damn right, I don't!)

 

Sorry, about the thread drift but I feel better now - it's been a trying day at work!

[forddeliveryboy]

True about the'low mileage gems' I've driven 15 year old mondeos that had done 50k and felt asthmatic yet the 130k one I had went like a train. Why is this?

 

Many low milers will have driven multiple short trips, never bedding in the rings as well as something which has been stretched. I once had a Golf n/a diesel which felt like this even though it had 108k showing - it wasn't smooth and felt wooden. A run to the NW of Scotland and back on old oil (to bed in the bearings), as flat out as possible, transformed it into a smooth-running, eager and revvy thing - as much as any such miserable appliance can be.

 

On the subject of veg burning, has an research been done into the particulate content and potential for harm? I know veg burning cars score very well on MOT emissions tests, but they fucking stink (according to anyone that follows me). The smell isn't dirty (like old fashioned diesel exhaust) or oddly chemical and worrying (like modern dervs with DPFs) or even unpleasant in my opinion, but it is strong. 

 

I find VW group TDis have little veg smell, unless you let them idle to the point there's unburned fuel - which isn't good for engine or air. The Mercedes engines are always bloody smelly at idle, partly because a 3 litre engine is burning more fuel at tickover and possibly because the stroke is quite short, making the possibility of unburned fuel when not under load more likely. I also think there's a psychological effect taking place, in that we aren't used to a back-of-restaurant smell coming from a car. Time alters this, to the point I almost choke on diesel fumes now, yet hardly smell veg fumes anymore.

 

I'd say there's still the carcinogenic effect of soot particles, but without the burnt cocktail of additives which all forecourt diesel has - most of which may be nastier than the fuel itself. Veg is definitely a good thing, unless it's new veg off the shelf, in which case the emissions created in putting it on the shelf are ma-hoooosive. Unless it comes from that farm in Germany where all the tractors and press machinery runs on veg.

 

I think silicones started to be added to diesel back in the 90s, which prevent the foaming which used to occur (remember that?) and make the fuel flow better, but when passed through a hot cylinder these are spewed out of the exhaust in sharp-edged nano-particles, extremely harmful to lungs. Didn't jonny69 once mention he worked in something to do with emissions?

[PiperCub]

Re: Low-milers above - I'd agree with this, running in is still important IMO, my 1991 205GTi was giffer owned for almost all its life so in its 37K miles it's never been properly run-in so when I got it, it felt rather underpowered. About 1K later after I'd properly serviced it and given it a fairly regular thrashing (once warm) though the rev-range, it's a much better, more willing engine with still more to come I think (will find out this year!). The same thing was true of my first example I had back in the mid-90's, was a bit lethargic to start with but when I sold it a year later (& +12K miles) it went like a rocket.

 

Oddly though, this isn't always the case, my other keeper, a one lady owner '91 MX5 came from Jersey and has done only 9K from new (a FSH but was on its original cambelt....) yet its motor feels almost as lively as my well-worn/abused 100K+ Eunos felt when I had both and compared them back-to-back. Maybe she ran it in properly? I don't know.

[The Moog]

Only had one car below 100k most are 150k plus, last two pugs are 230k+.

 

Cheap n cheerful 😊

[PiperCub]

To be fair, my daily drivers/hacks/chod are also never less than 100K too. (406 - 130K)

[jonny69]

Does anyone on here know all about exhaust emissions, the size of particulates/how much more dangerous these tiny ones are to human health? Should we all go back to 1987 and run a BX/405 turbo-diesel?

 

Yep. I don't work in emissions but nano particles is one of my areas of expertise at work so I can comment on that. Diesels were originally legislated to clean up the tailpipe smoke, which was soot and other substances from unburned diesel. The manufacturers quickly realised that they didn't have to use soot traps if they ran the engines hotter, at higher pressures and with some kind of exhaust recirculation - which also meant higher efficiency - but you didn't get the black smoke. The result is the particles in the exhaust are much smaller and it's the size of them which is the issue.

 

Something like soot, which is visible black smoke, has particles around 25 namometres across. It makes your fingers black and you'll cough up black phlegm if it gets in your lungs. The problem in modern diesels is the particles are now much smaller, 5 nm or smaller. At this size you can't see them and they stay in the air. They won't make your fingers black and if you breathe them in they are absorbed by your lung tissues. It's not so much that they get into your bloodstream, like Pillock mentioned, it's that they are small enough to pass through the cell walls and they interfere with DNA. This is where they become carcinogenic, because they meddle with the DNA structure and the cell reproduces a defective copy.

 

Essentially it's the difference between a macro-size particle and a nano-size particle. Many substances are completely harmless at the macro-scale but become carcinogenic at nano-scale. Titanium dioxide is a good example of this, which is the white pigment in emulsion paint and you take it in some antacids, but when you grind it small enough that it is in nano-size particles it suddenly becomes quite harmful and has been observed to be carconogenic. In vitro lab tests have been carried out (not by me) with a number of common nanomaterials on lung cells and many have been shown to be carcinogens.

 

But yeah, diesel exhausts stink. I see nearly new cars kicking out plumes of black smoke on even light acceleration. They stink if you're stuck behind one in traffic. Vans have got to be the worst. What's that choking yellow smoke that comes out of most buses? It's just not acceptable and it really surprises me that there has not been a clampdown on it before. Bear in mind that petrol cars haven't been allowed to emit any kind of visible smoke for over 20 years.

[lisbon_road]

LPG is the way to go.  Amazing how clean the engine oil stays. 

 

It isn't perfect but I think that it is the best practical option available.  Must get my act together and convert my car.

[Pillock]

 

 

It's not so much that they get into your bloodstream, like Pillock mentioned, it's that they are small enough to pass through the cell walls and they interfere with DNA. This is where they become carcinogenic, because they meddle with the DNA structure and the cell reproduces a defective copy.

 

 

I pride myself on being partly accurate based on overheard pub facts and half read internet articles.

[Asimo]

LPG is the way to go.  Amazing how clean the engine oil stays. 

 

It isn't perfect but I think that it is the best practical option available.  Must get my act together and convert my car.

I got all excited about LPG a few years when thinking about using it for central heating. I approached several suppliers about using a domestic heating LPG tank to fill an LPG car. They agreed that it was the same fuel, and that the tax could be managed without much aggro as some industrial users of LPG managed to fuel vehicles from their own bulk tanks.

The sinker was the cost of the LPG rated hose, pump, forecourt rated electric installation etc.