ANPR

[nigel bickle]

They keep telling us there are about 20,000 million uninsured cars on the road -but if yesterday is anything to go by -there just cant be.I've decided to sell our Kia Pride (on thiefbay for no money) -cos its in the way of more interesting, shortly forthcoming, shite.2 days ago my Vehicle Licensing Office formally confirmed the transfer off of the personal plate- and reverted it to its original number -immed, having kept the old plates.Yesterday I decided to use it for work -round trip of around 80 miles.I got stopped by an unmarked Police Car en route there, & a highly visible Traffic Merc on the way back.Both very polite- and no worries once they'd seen the copy of my Traders Policy- on my way within 2 minutes each time.My point, finally is -how do these alleged scrotes get away with it? Cos -I couldnt, even for 1 day.(Informed Insurer's/MID of the number change last night -had assumed it would happen automatically...)Makes me begin to believe that the ''problem'' may be a teeny bit exaggerated - perhaps to keep the Jobsworths Empire Building?

[pogweasel]

Because you stopped, spoke to them in english and were polite. If you hoofed it off, or stopped but spoke only in some kind of foreign, they'd probably have been able to do f*ck all. Plus, if you get caught, what happens? £50 fine (which you probably won't have to/won't pay) and a slapped wrist. OK, so your £50 shitter gets confiscated, so all you do is go and buy another one with your dole money. And so the cycle repeats. Ever noticed that when you are selling something really shit on the bay, most of the questions are 'will you tax it for me m8'... because you know the methadone addled twat who crawls off some sink estate for it won't ever bother insuring it. In the unlikely event of them actually having a valid license, insurance is expensive, innit. Although you detest them, you can see the scumbags point - £500+++ to cover a £50 shitter, when the penalty will never amount to the cost of insurance, so why bother.

[Milford Cubicle]

I think the fine is actually at least £200 for driving uninsured, plus 6 points on your license.I guess it's still irrelevant to the 'lawless' among us.

[wuvvum]

I've only once been pulled because my car wasn't showing up on the MID, and that was in a scruffy J reg Rover 825D that was begging for a tug anyway. I often don't add purchases to the MID as quickly as I should - the Colt still isn't on there and I've been running into work in that all week. Maybe they just don't have as many ANPR camera cars round here as they do down south.

[CortinaDave]

Driving without MOT, however seems worthwhile. Mate of mine got done a few weeks ago for it after his test lapsed and he forgot.£60 spot fine, no points.When it usually costs at least a couple of hundred to get a shitter through, it makes you wonder why you would bother

[retrogeezer]

I think the fine is actually at least £200 for driving uninsured, plus 6 points on your license.I guess it's still irrelevant to the 'lawless' among us.

Certainly is as it's usually 6 points on a licence they don't have anyway.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Driving without MOT, however seems worthwhile. Mate of mine got done a few weeks ago for it after his test lapsed and he forgot.£60 spot fine, no points.When it usually costs at least a couple of hundred to get a shitter through, it makes you wonder why you would bother

One answer might be that when you have a bump and the insurance find out you've got no MOT they'll cancel your cover, leaving you open to getting bummed for all sortrs of other offences.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Makes me begin to believe that the ''problem'' may be a teeny bit exaggerated - perhaps to keep the Jobsworths Empire Building?

i TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS! You hear it all the time 'oh yeah we need this database and that spy-in-the-sky technology because of all the uninsured motorists on the road, there are over 50 million of them at the last count' but how can there be? As you say theres ANPR in so many places now I dont see how an uninsured car can be of any use to anyone. ITS BOLLOCKS! I am absolutley convinced about that.

[Ratdat]

Too true. I know of two fixed ANPR cameras around my way and that's in utterly rural Lincolnshire. Add to that the few mobile units and it's highly likely you'd get tugged in a motor with no test or insurance.I visited my mum recently and she was telling me that the local rag up here way reckoned that 62% of cars in Huddersfield were uninsured. That's the biggest load of horseshit ever!

[Father Ted]

Hmm, I drove all the way from Swindon to Blackpool in an untaxed car (insured & MOT'd and I had money to pay for tax, but GPO shut Sat PM) on the motorways and major A roads. Never got pulled, a letter nor nothing.

[Richard]

I don't see that driving uninsured is such a heinous crime.I've always thought, and still do, that third party insurance should be illegal instead of compulsory. If people had to pay for their mistakes they might take a little more care.

[pogweasel]

Cameras are all well and good but if all they are doing is issuing fixed penalties by post it's all a bit academic. If the car isn't registered properly, or the owner simply opts to ignore it, then they can continue with relative impunity. Given that our east european neighbours never have any tax on their motors yet drive them round for months before the DVLA eventually come out and clamp/hiab them it's clearly pretty easy. Then they simply buy yet another smashed-bumpered mondeo and the process starts all over.

[pogweasel]

I don't see that driving uninsured is such a heinous crime.I've always thought, and still do, that third party insurance should be illegal instead of compulsory. If people had to pay for their mistakes they might take a little more care.

Fine, up to a point. So your car gets smashed to bits, bit of a ballache. But if an uninsured driver wallops you and you lose your legs or eyes in the accident, then you'd be super fucked. That's what it's really for, isn't it?

[Mr Lobster]

I think its not so much that there are uninsured cars but uninsured drivers on the road. ie the car itself is insured, just that its not insured for the person who is driving to be driving.Working in a Liverpool car rental company, we see hundreds of people who have IN10 (driving with no insurance) on their licence. An awful lot seem to regard it as a minor technicality and that "its not realy a crime like speeding is"Fortunately, all of these people are told to f#ck off and not darken our doors again...

[Richard]

But the real problem would be that I was maimed. The driver would still be liable for damages, only he would have to find the money himself. I'd prefer not to get maimed at all.

 

Deep down I do grudgingly concede that insurance is necessary, but driving uninsured, or untaxed, is not dangerous. Bad driving and bad maintenance are the killers, and automated enforcement systems do very little to combat those. The only reason insurance and tax are enforced so zealously is because it's cheap and easy to do.

[Richard]

I think its not so much that there are uninsured cars but uninsured drivers on the road. ie the car itself is insured, just that its not insured for the person who is driving to be driving.Working in a Liverpool car rental company, we see hundreds of people who have IN10 (driving with no insurance) on their licence. An awful lot seem to regard it as a minor technicality and that "its not realy a crime like speeding is"Fortunately, all of these people are told to f#ck off and not darken our doors again...

There's another problem with ANPR- it doesn't catch uninsured drivers, just uninsured cars.

[VWPowered]

when i got my insurance in france yesterday it didnt cost a bean, the process normally here, is that they write u a ticket for the wiondscreen and send a contract with options you return the contract they send you the proper green ticket and a bill, process takes a few weeks but least its covered striaght away..as far as i know fines here are 11e for each document u dont have with u i.e. no license, assurance, ct, carte grisno insurance is a 75E fine but considsering its such a easy process they is no excuse but still i see lots of uk cars here with no MOT/tax displayed (well if its out of date it soon noticeable..) and still no visable CT/Assurance sticker...no good..but i will admit to driving afew home as you do but only if im either getting rid/breaking

[Cavcraft]

How do the fix ANPR cameras work anyhow? Ok they can pick something up but without a local cop car to pull them over your average twonk will just carry on until they get pulled so almost pointless imho. Also once Mr and Ms Smacktaker get to know where they are they'll just avoid them anyhow.I will say that I think the ANPR (and it's forerunner the car tax dodgers van) do work though. Being honest I had one taxed car and anywhere up to two or three sellers/reserve dailys that didn't have tax and ran different untaxed cars for months until a very lucky escape with a tax van one day. Ever since then I've had everything taxed or not used it, it really doesn't seem worth risking now.Incidentally is it true that if stopped by ANPR they cannot take the vehicle off you just for being untaxed? If so that's a bit mad and will only encourage people to drive without rfl.

[Maltelec]

How do the fix ANPR cameras work anyhow?

I've installed two ANPR cameras at a holiday park to read everyone going and out.The technicalities are:You have a camera (normal CCTV camera)This is specifically designed to work in the Infa-Red raange, around 1000 nm (as quite a few night-vision CCTV cameras do).In front of the camera is a 1000nm IR filter so it only lets through the IR light.Next to the camera (or around the camera) are a load of 1000nm IR lights (usually LED's).The light from the LED's is sent out and hits your number plate. As the reflective coating works especially well with IR light the camera sees a very high contrast between the letters and the plate. Literally a white plate with everything else black.Because its all IR, headlights etc don't effect it. You can bearly see headlights on the camera. They are very very faint.Then a computer takes the video and basically reads picture to try and determine the letters and numbers on the plate.Sometimes things like an E can come out as an 8, F as E or 8 etc. expecially if you have a screw near by or the plate is mucky.Some things to note:Most ANPR cameras only read front numberplates of vehicles traveling in the correct direction as rear plates can be located anywhere especially on trucks.A screw in the wrong place can really confuse the CR (charachter Recognition).Things like clingfilm don't work, it sees straight through it.Fancy fonts really confuse the system, which is why they are illegal.The ANPR cameras have to be zoomed right in. So much so that 1 camera can only do 1 lane on the motorway. If you drive down the white lines, its possible it can miss you.Mobile ANPR cameras are exactly the same, only because of the way they are set up, they could easily catch you outside of the normal lane limitation of the fixed ones.If you want to blind the camera, simply attach a 100W 1000nm IR spot lamp on the front of your car looking up at about 30 degrees. This lamp will be invisible to the human eye, but wouldn't half feel warm.Or get a 1000nm opaque filter.Once the computer has detected the (correct) number plate, it simply looks on its database and sees if anything is incorrect with the vehicle details.It can then automatically send you out a letter and a fine.

[Pillock]

Round here there's not many of the fixed ANPR cameras (at least not for police use - a lot of carparks and petrol stations use them) but we do have a regular round of the mobile ones. Two transit vans parked on the same stretch of road, usually where there's no turnings to escape. One will be DVLA-manned checking for tax, and one will be police checking the owners details for insurance, MoT, warrants for arrest and so on. Further up the road there's a team of police motorbikers waiting to give chase if needed, and a tow truck. Tax evaders have their cars towed around the corner onto a side street and clamped until they buy some tax and pay a fine. Works well, a mate had just bought an ex-motorbility car from a disabled guy and the forms to change it back to regular tax were with the DVLA. The police pulled him, and as soon as he got out of the car the copper just said "Well that answers my first question sir...." :)I did nearly run a policelady over though, I was interested in seeing what happened if they couldn't read my plate so I was about 12 inches away from the van in front, towards the centre of the road. We were only doing about 5mph in traffic but the daft bint stepped into the gap to stop me!

[nigel bickle]

I actually found the process fascinating. Second time I got to sit in said ''Jam sandwich'' ( -in the front, cos it was raining!!) &7 got to look at his screen. Its like a very big Sat Nav, with all my details up -name & address, dob etc, plus the vehicle details -model colour etc.Along the bottom, about 1/2 inch square were a row of lights- MOT,Tax Ins, & a few others -Ins was lit up on 'mine'. However off to the right was a Notes box stating 'Cherished Transfer' -presumably for a week or two to get the new plates etc. So -he already knew /guessed, but needed to check. No acrimony or any probs. I asked that the number plate didnt transfer insurance details across on MID -kinda expected it too. 'Nope' was the answer -needs to be done manually -so now I've done it.I revert to my original point. ALL these 'alleged' uninsured drivers arent foreign are they??If so, why not sell them ''State'' 3rd party cover -for the year, at the border -like the Swiss m/way sticker. Job done, Nice n'lucrative -no need for all these jobsworths with cameras etc.I'm law abiding (mostly) -but I could get a persecution complex here....

[Cavcraft]

Maltelec, apologies as I didn't explain myself properly. What I meant by 'how do they work?' was that I can't understand how they actually stop people using uninsured/untaxed vehicles if the police aren't waiting round the corner to nab them.Like Nigel, I think the car based ones are fascinating and the two coppers who pulled me a while back were really cool and explained how it all worked. They reckoned they could sit on a bridge over a motorway with 6 lanes either side and pick off every single uninsured untaxed vehicle.

[Richard]

I think the registered keeper gets a letter through the door. The chances of the registered keeper being the car's owner or even a real person are remote.

[Pete-M]

Driving without MOT, however seems worthwhile. Mate of mine got done a few weeks ago for it after his test lapsed and he forgot.£60 spot fine, no points.When it usually costs at least a couple of hundred to get a shitter through, it makes you wonder why you would bother

One answer might be that when you have a bump and the insurance find out you've got no MOT they'll cancel your cover, leaving you open to getting bummed for all sortrs of other offences.

Has anyone ever been done for that? I don't know anyone whos insurance has been cancelled for no mot / tax by the actual insurance company. Bump or not. Always seems to be just a fine for no mot and whatever else is easily spotted to be erong on the car when the plod get hold of it.

[Richard]

I had a bump with no tax or MOT and there didn't seem to be any problem with the insurance. They didn't ask, so I didn't tell them. It was a lesson learned though, if I'd been able to call the police out I wouldn't have had to accept liability. They didn't ask the only other time I've made a claim either, though they could have checked online by then. Driving without an MOT does not automatically invalidate your insurance. If a testable item is faulty and it contributed to the accident, then it might affect the claim. I don't know what happens when young drivers with their undeclared mods have their all too frequent accidents. Often these accidents involve fatalities or very serious injuries to third parties which, as pogweasel pointed out earlier, is where the expensive claims come in.

[CortinaDave]

The strictest ANPR camera round here is otherwise known as the old bint across the street.Should my tax be out by as much as 5 minutes she's on the phone to the plod. My capri's been covered in a heavy frost all day.. its disc expires tonight, and when i came home i noticed she'd been over and rubbed the frost off the window over the disc to see if i had a new one. Unbelieveable!!I've ordered a new one from the DVLA site, and thanks to the new rules.. I get to have the car on the street for 5 days while i wait for it to arrive perfectly legally.

[Richard]

Have that rule printed out ready for the inevitable visit from Plod tomorrow morning.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

you need a derivative of this tax disc holder:

 

 

'YES IVE PAID MY TAX..... NOW GO BACK IN THE HOUSE AND HAVE A CUP OF FUCKING HORLICKS YOU MAD OLD BINT'

[maxustaxus]

I also think it is about empire building. Many a criminalising industry has been built upon the appeal that someone else is getting away with it, while you have to pay. Each new enforcement measure, each new regulation and law, always in the name of catching the 'bad ones', slowly but slowly changes our way of life from a people that mainly choose to obey the law, to a people that live under constant threat, like mistrusted children.Personally, I would support any politician that did away with complusory insurance. If you are worried about other drivers and your unisured risk, then buy the cover, it would cost a little more, but not a great deal. If not, take the risk. The benefit of this would be to release whole legions of paper pushers and enforcers, able now to do something that benifits society like caring for the elderly or building safer roads. It might also mean that many would drive with a good deal more care. I bet thousands of lives could be saved when people start driving as if their house is at stake should they be to blame for a serious personal injury to another. Just because something has always been done a certain way, does not mean it can go unquestioned.

[CortinaDave]

She's always a cow, but I reckon the reason she's so desperate to have me booked at the moment is because the equally social climbing son who lives next door to her is trying to flog his house, and they probably think my autoshite will put off buyers