Anyone wishing for an electric car for Christmas?

[dollywobbler]

Yeah, I know. I was being facetious. A hydrogen fuel cell still needs hydrogen as a source fuel though. It doesn't produce hydrogen, it uses it as a fuel. It's not a particularly easy substance to store, which is why I can't help thinking it's a strange thing for companies and governments to be investing in.

 

That said, if you looked at petrol from a complete newbie point of view, it'd probably look stupid. "You transport this dangerous liquid all around the world, pour it into an open filler neck yourself and it's explosive? Bonkers!"

[Craig the Princess]

It's all pretty irrelevant however. Petrol and diesel will be the main transport fuel sources for our lifetimes. Electric and other sources will only make up a tiny percentage of vehicles. Oil companies, manufactures and governments will see to that.

[forddeliveryboy]

Excellent idea, I'd love to drive trolleybuses for a living. It would also be hilarious watching motorists wrestling with 20 foot bamboo poles every time they dewired.

Count me in.

 

Edit: Sorry, this doesn't really add much to the debate.

 

Oh, I dunno - roads have become interminably boring places since cars don't break down with little things which could be easily mended at the side of the road. I'd love to see motorists once again having to have some practical ability to use powered personal transport.

 

Wiring loads of electricity over any distance gets both lossy and expensive (the UK loses around 10% of all power generated in the grid, which makes Ferrybridge's low-40s% look even worse even before your 25% loss in the battery charger and the rest). I have a soft-spot for Edinburgh's (and San Francisco's) cable-hauled trams - yet it was in Edinburgh that the first electric tram (using a remote supply) ran in 1884. They had good reasons not to use electricity, but did eventually convert in the 1920s just to prevent the Pilrig problem.

[forddeliveryboy]

No, it does because looking back towards what we used not that long

Not sure about steam power as a viable motive power source, if only because it lacks the easily turn off and onable nature of petrol/diesel/electric power.

 

 

Flash boilers, like steam cars had. You turn on and off the fuel supply as you would to a petrol engined car. Steam is perceived as old-fashioned in a way electric power isn't, because it was once universal and is thought to have been 'superceded' by clean* diesel power. And because the average man in the street thinks that if something's 'electronic' then it's cutting edge. How more wrong could he be?

 

Steam power is everywhere, today - we just ignore it. It helps make most of our electricity, for starters. The Rankine Cycle has been looked at by big motor corps (including Honda) and then ignored because they have zero practical know-how. Saab was one of the exceptions, they had a steam powered car ready for production which was as economical and easy to use as a petrol equivalent but sales dept said OMGNO!!! - the general pubic would boycott it through sheer ignorance. Apparently the power unit was barely bigger than a medium size automotive battery.

 

Never forget electric motors are heavy things (5 or 6 times heavier than the same power hydraulic motor) and storing electrical energy will forever be a problem for cars. And extremely heavy - unless you're using super-capacitors, which don't keep it for long.

 

I seem to remember being told by some military man that Saab Bofors missiles were/are better than anything British or American (which was kept quiet) and use lithium/sodium hexa-something generated steam power. There was no exhaust (ash stored within the missile) and was the only such missile undetectable by any military power.

 

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?s=65ccc28b08267b285e0a699adb0080d9&p=13745172&postcount=5

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_car#Saab_steam_car

http://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=76411

 

[forddeliveryboy]

It's all pretty irrelevant however. Petrol and diesel will be the main transport fuel sources for our lifetimes. Electric and other sources will only make up a tiny percentage of vehicles. Oil companies, manufactures and governments will see to that.

 

Petrol and diesel cars are both so complex now that the simplicity of a battery car makes a lot of sense if your commute is under 60 or 70 miles, return. No DMFs, EGRs and their coolers, cats, glowplugs, lambda sensors, OMGHGF, radiators, engine oil, thermostats, gears, clutches and so on. Or 21st century lead-free soldered electronics trying to control something very 20th century involving fire, vibration and exhaust fanimolds.

 

If you spend much time in traffic jams it makes even more sense. Then there's the cost of the fuel, it's less than a fiver to 'fill the tank' on an EV. I wouldn't be surprised if most of commuter-man is buying electric within a decade. The EV is for the man without an automotive soul.

[rml2345]

Since electric motors produce less vibration and other wear and tear side effects of the internal combustion engine an electric car should actually last longer.

Could you imagine an electric Volvo 740? It would last forever...

[dollywobbler]

You see, I just don't buy that line FDB. Am I somehow less of a man because I like cars that don't have engines? Don't get me wrong - I'm not ready to live without engines at all, but given how bland nearly all four-pot engines are, I consider it no great loss to replace their dull noise with a whispering electric motor.

[danthecapriman]

Since electric motors produce less vibration and other wear and tear side effects of the internal combustion engine an electric car should actually last longer.

Could you imagine an electric Volvo 740? It would last forever...

I'm not so sure! On cars, how many times does the battery die, alternators and starter motors need replacing etc yet the actual engine - the mechanical bit, is still there, still working. Also how many cars get weighed in nowadays, not for body rot or worn out engines but electrical faults and failures.

 

It's the same at work, on the power grid. Usually if there's a problem it's something electronic/ electrical as aposed to a mechanical issue. We still use very old fashioned mechanical protection relays on substations, they are still working perfectly after 50 odd years, yet their modern electronic relay replacements can't last much more than a quarter of that!

The backup battery sets we have (on constant charge) only last a few years too.

 

And if my home computers are anything to go by there's no hope for modern electrical items!

Of course this could all be down to the quality of electronics. Very much built to a price!

[forddeliveryboy]

You see, I just don't buy that line FDB. Am I somehow less of a man because I like cars that don't have engines? Don't get me wrong - I'm not ready to live without engines at all, but given how bland nearly all four-pot engines are, I consider it no great loss to replace their dull noise with a whispering electric motor.

 

Aha! I was being the devil's advocate, mentioning the word 'soul' to a 2cv driver! I also had my Fred Dibnah cap on when I said it. Your point about the inline four is very true; it'll be an improvement for many shopping trolley to lose their ICE.

 

Maybe it's just the fact that makers have worked out the cheapest, most profitable way of making steel and plastic into personal transport. Mechanical refinement for most today is rubber damping out vibration and distorting to make up for cheap'n'nasty suspension layouts.

 

That's why I'm hoping that the introduction of a 'new' technology will at least displace some of the cost accountants with real engineers - no maker is going to want their first EV to be a lemon, so they'll put a lot of effort into making it a good'un. The i3 is a decent example of this, I'd say.

 

Trouble is, cheap and barely-taxed electricity means you can make a leccy car both heavy and fastish yet the 'economy' will appear superb to the consumer. Which is one reason why the line of 'zero emissions' is believed by so many. All the while we're chucking coal, gas and wood (which has been monoculturally fast-grown where ancient indigenous woodland once existed) onto the fires in our power stations to make electricity (at well under 50% efficiency).

[forddeliveryboy]

Since electric motors produce less vibration and other wear and tear side effects of the internal combustion engine an electric car should actually last longer.

Could you imagine an electric Volvo 740? It would last forever...

 

 

 

I prefer this -

 

[Micrashed]

I have to say this really is turning into a very interesting thread, ive had a good read up on the steam power theory - bearing in mind my last experience of steam powered motive transport was with one of these:

[castros_bro]

You'd never get a steam engine to fly.

 

 

[oman5]

I'm pretty sure the Stanley steamer company had it all sussed by 1930 or so. Their steam cars were very strong performers. It's still relying on burning fossil fuels though.

 

Maybe a small nuclear reactor like they use on submarines could be used? Think of the fun in a RTA!

[rml2345]

^ Ford had that idea with the Nucleon but even 1950s nuclear obsessed engineers didn't think it a terribly good idea.

Something to do with weight and packaging I think...

[cms206]

Since electric motors produce less vibration and other wear and tear side effects of the internal combustion engine an electric car should actually last longer.

Could you imagine an electric Volvo 740? It would last forever...

An electric 740 would be hopeless. How many 740s have you seen where all the electrics work properly?!

[forddeliveryboy]

I wonder what'll come first, the NissanLeaf with useable batteries (perhaps 60 miles range) at £900ono or the mandatory government black box which will add a charge per mile? I could be persuaded into a Leaf for under a grand, if it weren't for the vegoil malarkey.

[Lacquer Peel]

I'm pretty sure the Stanley steamer company had it all sussed by 1930 or so. Their steam cars were very strong performers. It's still relying on burning fossil fuels though.

 

Maybe a small nuclear reactor like they use on submarines could be used? Think of the fun in a RTA!

What's to stop you running a steam engine on renewables, such as firewood?

[forddeliveryboy]

What's to stop you running a steam engine on renewables, such as firewood?

 

Not much. Taking stuff to the tip would be great - old beds and chairs would get you there and back and half way through the week.

[oman5]

How much of it you'd need to carry to get the same power output as a tank of petrol/diesel/paraffin would be the limiting factor to using firewood, how slowly it burns, how much smoke you get etc

[dollywobbler]

Funny that this has popped back up today. I watched 'Who Killed the Electric Car' for the first time today. I'm capable of seeing through the obvious bias, but how short-sighted were the GM board? They actually had a capable electric car in something approaching production, got cold feet and just binned over 1000 cars. A decade later, Nissan is celebrating selling 15,000 electric cars in the US, and Toyota is cleaning up with hybrids inspired by US legislation!

 

I still want an electric car.

[forddeliveryboy]

I want a steam car! Electric cars may succeed for similar reasons the ICE car did - it will appear cheaper (until the National Grid has to be totally rebuilt), though nastier. History has taken many a similar odd turn in the past.

 

http://www.beltdrive.com.au/belt-drive-articles/2007/8/30/all-steamedup-to-drive-home-his-power-point/

 

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2011/11/02/1963-ford-falcon-steam-power-edition/

 

 

This guy drove from Melbourne to Canberra on 20 litres of waste engine oil powering the steam-engined Falcon, around 300 miles.

[seacow]

I bought a top spec Leaf a few months back and love it!  If I am honest I'm not really green but was fascinated by the technology.  The main driver though was that I changed jobs and needed to do a 35 mile a day commute.  The lease on the Leaf was the same as my train fare and I charge for free near the house thanks to the council.  Did a PCP so will hand back at the end when its worth fuck all as the technology has moved on.

 

I must say that it is great fun to drive - like a fun supermini and its fast in the 0-30 range too.  Nissan are doing free 7 day test drives at the moment and I would encourage everyone to try it just for the hell of it!  Of course we have a real car for long journeys and still have the E30 and the Montego in the garage!!

[forddeliveryboy]

^^ So the tax-payer isn't just paying the £5k towards you buying it, but also for all the fuel!!!

 

A little more seriously, how far do you risk going in it? Do they have LED headlamps, surely not 60w halogen ovens? I do think much of commmuter Britain will have EV within a few years. Power cuts will be a new reason not to turn up at the office, too.

[dollywobbler]

Top-spec Leaf does have LED headlamps and they're bloody good. Conventional main beam. Personal experience in hilly Wales in November suggests 60-80 miles as a realistic range. 

[forddeliveryboy]

That's interesting - I wasn't sure of the legalities. Why main beam with normal lighting, I wonder? And how do EVs charge their 12v circuit?

[seacow]

^^ So the tax-payer isn't just paying the £5k towards you buying it, but also for all the fuel!!!

 

A little more seriously, how far do you risk going in it? Do they have LED headlamps, surely not 60w halogen ovens? I do think much of commmuter Britain will have EV within a few years. Power cuts will be a new reason not to turn up at the office, too.

Too bloody right. Anything for a free lunch!!!

 

Range is as DW said about 80-90 miles. Round here the infrastructure is pretty good with chargers. There is a certain excitement to pushing the range limits. Most journeys we do aren't that long so it's more a case of seeing how many trips we can do before plugging in!!

[hennabm]

After having an "extended" drive in an I3 I do like the technology. For replacing one of our cars (320i), in the main, it would be ideal as most journeys are short.

 

As for having one as my only car - not yet. I still need a car that will do hundreds of miles a day when I use it.

 

I too wonder on how serviceable the current range of EVs will be in about 10 years, when technology has romped on, leaving them behind. Will it be like a Spectrum 64 and Windows 7, making the early ones obsolete.

Will they become autoshite of the future?

[forddeliveryboy]

I suspect things will be little different from today, the masses will be told their machine is unrepairable and it'll be scrapped or end up in the hands of enthusiasts who have access to people in the know. Perhaps the biggest problem will be as battery tech alters and newer types don't fit (either physically or electronically).

[Micrashed]

 

Chorley Asda yesterday

[garethj]

I agree, just because the culture now is to repair old cars, doesn't mean it'll stay that way.  It wasn't long ago when TV repair shops were in every town, a good one might dabble in repairing vacuum cleaners too.  Now, it's a proper minority interest.

 

How do electric cars do heating?  Is it with something like an Eberspacher fuel burning heater, or do they use electric heating?