PSA kicked out of French blue-chip index!

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19516327

 

That's what happens when you kill off Talbot, eat at hydropneumatic suspension, and sack Pininfarina! Shite karma in action.

[ashmicro]

Agreed. I loved my Sambas, but then I became Ford's bitch. Shame. Some ole Pugs and Cits were damn' fine conveyances.

[Ian Nexus]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-19516327

 

That's what happens when you kill off Talbot, eat at hydropneumatic suspension, and sack Pininfarina! Shite karma in action.

 

Did someone say Fisker Karma?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Its nowt to do with any of that, its just cos they announced a strategic tie-up with GM! If ever a car company wanted to finish itself off, that the way to do it

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

PSA is fucked anyway, along with Renault. Modern French stuff is shit, and just about everyone knows it which is why their sales are collapsing. They're caught in a vicious circle of practically giving cars away and giving four year warranties that could well wipe out profits.

 

Meanwhile at Kia and Hyundai.............

[cort16]

I've been looking for a new car for Mrs C and went to look at that new Peugeot 208 the other day. Not a bad looked especially compared to the hideous 207. However even the bottom to mid range one has the most mind boggling looking electronics I've seen in any new car for a while. There's basically knock off ipad glued to the dashboard that controls everything on the car. It doesn't have a CD player or anything it just has plugs for mp3 players and ipods. This is all very commendable but if perhaps executed by someone with a reputation for building cars with solid electronic i.e. not Peugeot. I then read a review of it saying that during a prolonged test drive the system crashed 3 times and needed to be re-booted (car on and off) to coax it back to life. It just seems madness to lumber your no 1 selling car with technology that has no hope of working and will just gaurentee to piss your customers off. It's like Laguna II Keycards all over again.

 

 

We didn't buy it although we did buy something french. Fingers crossed!

[ashmicro]

PSA is fucked anyway, along with Renault. Modern French stuff is shit, and just about everyone knows it which is why their sales are collapsing. They're caught in a vicious circle of practically giving cars away and giving four year warranties that could well wipe out profits.

 

Meanwhile at Kia and Hyundai.............

 

 

Nail/head interface. Quite right.

[Cavcraft]

Those new DS3 look great, and there seem to be quite a few about. Are they stupidly cheap and a loss maker or something?

[mrcitroen]

PSA are in a bad position. Citroen & Peugeot products are just re bodied clones of each other with no outward advantage over each other. Fair enough VAG do it, but they are masters of the badge engineering with top class marketing. No one wants quirky soft riding French cars now. What the average motorist wants / needs is 100% reliability in an easy to own package with no frivolities. One of my workmates has an i30 and personally I would take one over a small pug with an ipad sellotaped to the dash.

Saying that, the best products from PSA seem to be the current DS range. They look good, seem well screwed together and are a bit different. Loads of DS3's around here, but never see DS5's. Possibly a reason for that.

 

IMO Citroen died after the demise of Xantia / XM. I have no interest after that. C5 was shit, but C6 looked like a return to form, but can suffer with niggles due to the electrocrap.

[The Reverend Bluejeans]

It puzzles me as to why anyone buys a French car. Look at the sorry residuals and the way in which they go out of fashion so quickly. At least Renault have a share in Nissan to keep things afloat - but for how long? PSA just don't have anything going for them. The rot started when they tried their hand at Styling without Pininfarina, but they are squeezed by VAG on one side and the Koreans on the other. Peugeot and Citroen were both truly great marques - a damned shame.

I had the chance to sample a mid seventies GS recently. Now that was a proper Citroen.

[Spiny Norman]

No one wants quirky soft riding French cars now.

 

Given the state of our road network I'd say a good old fashioned French ride with long travel suspension would find quite a few friends if it was offered. The last few new-ish Froggy motors I've been in all seem to have fallen into the "Developed on the Nurburgring - driven on the Clydeside expressway" trap that has ruined the ride quality of so many recent cars.

 

The only real issue with them is reliabilty, get that back on track and they'll be worth owning again. Things do seem to be o the up at Citroen at least, if the number of DS3s I see round here are anyting to go by, and there are a few DS5s creeping onto the roads now as well.

Still haven't seen an MG6 without dealer stickers on it in the wild yet....

[dieselnutjob]

the 508 looks pretty good

[Negative Creep]

Is there even any point to Peugeot any more? The 306 was one of the nicest looking cars of its generation, with highly regarded performance versions. The 307 was stunningly bland and fell apart at an epic rate, whereas the 308 somehow managed to be stunningly bland and fuck ugly at the same time. At least Citroen Are now making a few more interesting designs.

[Lacquer Peel]

No one wants quirky soft riding French cars now.

 

Given the state of our road network I'd say a good old fashioned French ride with long travel suspension would find quite a few friends if it was offered. The last few new-ish Froggy motors I've been in all seem to have fallen into the "Developed on the Nurburgring - driven on the Clydeside expressway" trap that has ruined the ride quality of so many recent cars.[/size]

 

I can't tolerate hard riding cars after the excellent ride quality of my 405 and Xantia.

A lot of the small-medium French cars have retrograde non independent torsion beam rear suspension in place of the independent torsion bars they used to have. Hence shitness.

 

I'm not sure why people hate Mk1 C5s so much, they are good cars for the money - rather ugly of course.

[Pete-M]

I can't think of more than three or four new French cars that interest me at all.

 

I've tried a quick DS3, not the Racing, the next one down. VTS? I quite liked it. If they still make the Venturi, I'd have one of those and one of the unfortunately named but apparently quite good Hommell things.

 

So, to sum up, I'd have a DS Racing. I think that mad Peugeot RCZ looks quite funky, but every one I've seen seems to be powered by Dr. Diesel's Evil Invention so that rules them out. The 5000000000000000000000000008 (is that the modern 405?) looks ok, but every big modern (after the 405/6) Pug I've driven seems to be cheaply put together and a bit soggy to drive. C5s are crap and I've only ever seen one C6 that was capable of motion.

[Pillock]

Unfortunately from my experience French cars are just peanuts to buy secondhand - seems to be a combination of years of being offered at knockdown prices, and the reliability issues. So the whole thing just continues in a huge cycle, they need to knock them out cheaper and cheaper to make them a better proposition than an ex-fleet 2 year old example at 50% new price.

Or to make them a better bet new, they fill them with what they think people want.... usually electronic.... which goes wrong.

 

It's more or less what MFI did - survive (just) on years of banging out cheap, slightly rubbish goods before the world wises up and spends a few more quid on something that lasts twice as long.

[willswitchengage]

I think we're over-estimating the intelligence of the average new car buyer here. What demographic controls the most money in this country? The grey pound, and they're the ones who will only ever buy from "their" manufacturer no matter how dire their product is. My parents = good examples. We're a very conservative H8 CHANGE country which is why Toyota still only has a 3.8% market share. (data here)

 

Oh well, still doing better than Renault who recently axed half of their UK lineup

[beko1987]

I was having a rolly with the Mrs, pointing out random 12 plate shite, saying that our 3 month old daughter could have it as her first car, then saying how I couldn't fix it as I'd need hundreds of pounds of diagnostic equip, and she agreed with me.

 

I've taught her well, and my daughter can have the zx, when its Retro enough!

 

Kia us the way forward in shite terms!

[Pete-M]

Don't forget, to score maximum shite points someone somewhere has to order an awful car in the least lovely colour /trim / spec possible. NEW.

 

Luckily these people exist. It's just that for the last 15 years they've bought French, and most of the stuff they bought was scrapped at five or six years old with electrical faults, DMF failures, 2.2 Renault diesel engines...

 

Thirty years ago they'd have bought brown Mini-Metros, Terracotta Escort Mk3 base models, dangly mirror Sierras. Not many of which made it past 8-9 years old because of rot.

 

Forty years ago they'd be snapping up Hillman Imps, Vivas, 1.3 Capris, NSU Ro80s etc. Which tended to rot away or explode before your eyes.

 

Fifty years ago the average car did well making it to 10 years old. With modern French stuff, nothing has changed.. it's still lucky making it to 10. How many Mk1 Lagunas are left? Not many, but the Mk2 is giving 'em a run for their money in the race toward extinction

[Lacquer Peel]

Both of my French cars are 17 years old, how have they survived?!!!

 

It seems like all cars are equally shit now.

[Spiny Norman]

Both of my French cars are 17 years old, how have they survived?!!!

 

Because they're 17 years old, if they were 7 years old their future might not be so assured....

[Pete-M]

Both of my French cars are 17 years old, how have they survived?!!!

 

Because they're 17 years old, if they were 7 years old their future might not be so assured....

 

Exactly. The only reason tat survives is because someone has been willing to get it fixed when it has been touch and go whether to just scrap it.

 

Mondeo clutch gone? Scrap it.

Rover HGF? Scrap it.

Laguna electronics? Scrap it.

Astra starts in the morning? Scrap it.

 

Mental electronics aren't as much of an issue as people are making out. Check out the Range Rover P38 scene, those lads have got the electronics reverse-engineered and made them simple to fix using a £50 laptop and a few bits of wire, and the P38 was 'state of the art' in '94.. People are doing the same with Peugeots etc now.

 

It is at the point where people who work in labs with soldering irons are now enjoying playing with car electronics. For them it's an excuse to play with cars in the same way some folk enjoy fiddling with trunnions and overdrive units, but the electronics geeks can fix their bits without getting covered in shit. Its the same game, but played a different way. If you want to keep ahead, learn to do both.

[Bren]

Kia have 7 year warranties, such is their confidence in their products.

 

People want reliability with low running costs - these are things you can no longer associate with a modern french car.

 

I had a p reg xantia diesel which was the best car I have ever owned - abused and took it in it's stride, but it was looked after.

 

I have also had a R5 Gt turbo and a laguna auto (never buy french with an autobox - they just don't last). Not as good as the xantia.

 

On the other hand, speak to people in the trade, they will tell you that BMW/VW/AUDI are all over - rated in terms of reliability - I have just bought an 07 Vectra diesel, one of the reasons being because in terms of repair costs they are one of the cheapest cars to repair.

 

Maybe all cars are becoming too clever for their own good?

[Richard]

My early C5 is exactly where received opinion says it all went wrong and it has had a hard life but in some ways it's survived better than an 11 year old example from PSA's "golden age".

[dieselnutjob]

I have most the diagnostic protocols of my 607 and 806 already reverse engineered, along with a load of other mid age Peugeots and Citroens. I also have an interface that talks to them. I also have software that works on crappy old laptops running Windows 95, it will also work in Linux and Mac OS and the other versions of Windows as well.

 

This would have made me a career if the Chinese hadn't started selling clones of real Peugeot/Citroen factory diagnostic tools for £100. That's really hard to compete with.