A Framing issue on another forum.

[warren t claim]

Some interesting points raised here.

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=65796

 

"i was travelling along the motorway with a smart car on an unbraked Aframe (BOLTED ON TO THE CAR,NOT CHAiNED ON VERSION), well the reason i was towing such car was that the engine was knackered, and already removed and was already at my workshop, so im going along the motorway when an avon and Somerset policeman pulls up beside me, he takes some good looks at the van that i was driving and the smart car and the Aframe, he indicated to me to pull over.

 

I pulled over as requested and the policeman politely asked for my documents,i explained the engine wasnt present hence me towing it and all gearbox/wiring/removed and boxed up in the car, He then starts to look for the sticker that shows the maximum gross weight of the smart, we couldnt find it (found it afterwards 990kg), he asks me to wait whilst he googles "smart car" comes back and invites me to sit in his car, he explains that a smart car weighs maximum theoretical weight is 1200kg, and as such because there is no connection from when my vehicles brakes and the car im towing and it weighs over 750kg then the brakes are defective,

 

he gave me the ticket 3 points and £60 fine, could have used his descretion i though, but then said i assume you will be getting off the motorway at the next exit, i agreed to, he said it would take hime 5 minutes to complete the paperwork and then he would be travelling north at 50mph, he said if you set off now and travel at 60 mph our paths would never meet again, so i drove straight to rent a trailer to take the car home "legally",receipt to prove

 

I then took the car to a local scrapyard where the car with the Aframe attached was weighed, 720kg, took photo's and print out from the weigh bridge,

 

 

i returned home and called the police officer who still said that he said the ticket still stands due to the sticker which say 990kg which is the theoretical maximum mass (which is the complete car with 2 persons and full tank of petrol and luggage) i did explain that the car wasnt the weight that he says it is,i also added if i had a smart sheel with only wheels attached would i be comitting an offence, yes he said, wouldnt you take it to a weighbridge? i asked, we dont have time to take everyone to a weighbridge.

 

So explored the net and the Dept of Transport stated that a motor car becomes a trailer once the aframe is fitted, and as such am i right in also saying that the sticker is no longer applicable as its no longer a car.i was going to use this as my main defence

 

Furthermore as the trailer weighs under 750kg it doesnt need brakes, but it also states if they are fitted they must work, but this isnt what the policeman is trying to do me for.

 

 

Also when you get the definition of a motor vehicle/car it states........A self-propelled wheeled conveyance, such as a car or truck, with the engine and drivetrain missing it no longer qualifies as a motor vehicle.

 

Please can someone help as there is much of a grey area, and i need some confidence from you guys, cheers Nik

 

 

BTW i have already sent off the ticket to say im not guilty, and to be heard by a court"

[warren t claim]

Reading further on in the thread it also implies that the AA/RAC have ditched A frames in favour of those pop out trailer thingies to get around the law as they're permanently attached to their Transit/Vivaro.

[Lankytim]

The guy needs to go to court to sort this out. It's such a grey area! I didn't know that being overloaded was a points offence either- its usually just a fine, a certain ££'s per kilo its over the limit by.

 

Maybe a way around this in fiture is to tape over all the weight plates on the car being towed and paint "MAX TOWING WEIGHT, 750Kgs" on the A frame?

[Ross_K]

A-Frames are bollocks and a major grey area. Every cop would have a different view on the legalities of a-framing... That guy needs to hire a solicitor.

 

At least with a trailer you can be overweight (within reason) and not attract attention. A 4-wheeled "trailer" will attract attention every time.

 

The guy f**ked up by offering up the information that the car had no engine. He should have told the cop he was recovering a broken down car off the motorway to the next exit...

 

Another point of note is that cops are now using Google to assist them in their duties. God help us all.

[Guest]

And the police wonder why they're not respected. times forty.

[nigel bickle]

Bound to happen, sooner or later; no one knows ''the rules'' anymore -they're so open to interpretation.

 

Good test case short sort it -glad its not me paying..

[Andrew353w]

I'll be watching this thread big time! As some of you may know, I have an "A" frame and have used it loads of times to move cars about, often over significant distances. Recovering Torsten's Yugo from Leicestershire to South London is a case in point. At the time I used a yellow Skoda Fun to tow, complete with amber breakdown lights & I always wore a hi-vis tabard. I never had any trouble with "the boys in blue", despite probably being overweight more often than not! My "A" frame has a plate on it, stating that the maximum weight it can move is 2250Kg, although I realise that the weight towing car and the "towed vehicle" are more important. I haven't used my "A" frame for many months now, partly because the law seems to be "fluid" in this area and although I can't afford to help paying the legal fees, I'd like this case to go to court, to clarify where these things stand.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

It seems pretty clear to me, that if some court case ensued that resulted in a ‘clarification’ of the law around A-frame use, the outcome would be bad news for A-frame lovers! its hardly likely to be good news. At the end of the day theyre generally attached to a pretty massive unbraked weight. I think used with care they are as safe as or probably safer than a trailer, but unless you’re going to get a load of physicists and statisticians in the courtroom to explain the stability benefits of the weight distribution and work out guidelines for relative weights of tower/towee and what effect observation of those rules will have on accident statistics blah blah blah I think you’re onto a loser. I think any legal clarification would simply turn out to be ‘Use a fuggin trailer man’.

 

I use mine knowing that I am operating slightly ‘outside the law’ and have no laws on my side if i balls it up.

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

A simple rule set along the lines of "not permitted on motorways, allowed on other roads, maximum permitted speed 50mph, maximum towed vehicle weight 1500kg" would have saved everyone the trouble, but that would be too sensible.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Maybe, but then you’d get some nobhead towing 1495kg of Granada Ghia along a backroad at 49mph using a 950 fiesta which has no chance of stopping the ‘rig’ on a downhill stretch, and some hideous accident ensuing, and it being found that the lad was 100% compliant with the law.

[Lankytim]

The judgement in this case is only going to be in a magistrates court, so it doesn't set a "case law" for future A framing antics (I think)

 

If it were in the high court and the judge said that all A frames were illegal to use then that would be it- no more A framing!

[Luxobarges_Are_Us]

  Mr_Bo11ox said:

Maybe, but then you’d get some nobhead towing 1495kg of Granada Ghia along a backroad at 49mph using a 950 fiesta which has no chance of stopping the ‘rig’ on a downhill stretch, and some hideous accident ensuing, and it being found that the lad was 100% compliant with the law.

 

He'd be compliant with that particular law, but could still be convicted under something general such as "driving without due care and attention" or something.

[wuvvum]

Presumably such a setup would be well over the maximum permitted towing weight of a Fiesta 950, and he could therefore be done for that?

[Mr_Bo11ox]

That’s true enough i suppose.

 

This guy in the story has got a real bum deal I reckon, if he’s towing an engineless smart car behind his ‘van’ it seems pretty unlikely that he’s guilty of anything dangerous. Admittedly i don’t know what van he was using, (maybe it was a Honda Acty) but I would have thought any van bigger than a Berlingo or something would barely notice the additional weight, & thus is probably perfectly safe. In fact it probably weighs less than the van’s payload if he was able to carry it. He might end up copping the points on his license, but it will be due to the law being an ass rather than him having taken the pizz and done something dangerous.

[Ross_K]

I wonder what Google-cop would make of this:

[worldofceri]

This guy's making a mistake by taking it to court. There's no way he'll win. He may have thought he was legal, but just because lots of people do it it doesn't mean it is.

 

If he'd have been driving his van safely, but illegally, at 80 mph down the motorway he'd have just have taken the points and fine and chalked it up to life's great tapestry. The A-frame thing is no different.

[Lankytim]

I've got a Blackstones book on motoring law back at home, i'll have to check it later. I'm sure that for something to be a "motor vehicle" it needs to have an engine. It also says that a car under tow can be classed as a trailer OR a car. The book is from the year 2000 so may be out of date now though. Its full of interesting facts!

 

If I were that fella i'd try to argue that as the Smart was missing its engine it stops being a motor car, in the legal sense of the term and as its being towed becomes an unbraked trailer. It would be interesting to find out how much you have to remove before a car stops being a car. I wonder how I stand on my trailer made out half a Maestro van?

 

It sounds like the CPS have made a total hash of the prosecution already, so i'd say he stands a sporting chance.

[warren t claim]

  Mr_Bo11ox said:

In fact it probably weighs less than the van’s payload if he was able to carry it.

 

That's an excellent point, surely a 3.5t Transit loaded with two half full IBCs of liquid sloshing about would be be horrifically unstable but totally legal.

 

I fear that Police boredom caused by us living in a virtually crime free country will cause plod to impound and crush a hapless shiters car or the conquest he was harmlessly A framing home. I wouldn't put it past plod to firstly ask a driver to detach the A frame from the towing car before proceeding and then stopping the driver another 100yrds down the road to prosecute him for having left an untaxed, MOT'd and insured FSO parked up at the side of the road. A good "result" for them... 6 points, a £500 fine and a crushed Polonez.

 

That WOULD happen to someone!

[eddyramrod]

  warren t claim said:

a crushed Polonez.

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[worldofceri]

  Lankytim said:

If I were that fella i'd try to argue that as the Smart was missing its engine it stops being a motor car, in the legal sense of the term and as its being towed becomes an unbraked trailer.

 

I think he is trying to argue this isn't he? I don't think he'll get anywhere though; the plate on the 'vehicle' said 990kg (or whatever it is) so that stands as it's maximum authorised mass whether you class it as a car or a trailer.

 

  Lankytim said:

It would be interesting to find out how much you have to remove before a car stops being a car. I wonder how I stand on my trailer made out half a Maestro van?

 

If you still have the chassis plate on it somewhere then the limit for the back axle would apply, I suppose. If not, then I believe you can go up to 750kg provided this doesn't exceed the load ratings of the tyres. Check your car's limit for unbraked towing (I believe HM's constabulary use 'Google' for this) as it's normally a lot lower than for towing a braked trailer.

[KruJoe]

An interesting one.

He's not trying to say it's a trailer.

It seems that if it is being towed by another motor vehicle (not a specially constructed 'recovery vehicle'), it is a 'broken down vehicle'*. In this case, there is an exemption from braking regulations because on an A-frame, the broken down vehicle is steered by the movement of the towing vehicle.

 

I've just spent most of the evening carefully reading all 10 pages of that thread, and I'd recommend anyone with an interest in A-framing to do the same. Many interesting points have been raised and chewed over.

 

 

*A 'broken down vehicle' IS NOT defined in law as one in need of recovering as a consequence of a malfunction in the course of its most recent journey.

'Broken down' simply means 'no longer functioning'.

A broken down vehicle only stops being broken down once it is restored to fully operational condition.

 

Points such as 'reasonable distance' and 'recovery to a safe place' seem to have been argued away.

(But there has been no mention of MOT, insurance or tax on the Smart.)

 

 

Obvz I've paraphrased the whole thing to avoid trawling it all again for quotes.

So, it looks like the OP may have a good chance in his case (even if the CPS get their shit together), and after reading that thread, to me it seems that as the law stands, we A-framing shiters may still be on the right side of law, so long as the towed vehicle is 'no longer functioning' (not difficult - wire off the coil or summert), and we don't take the piss with weights. And trailer boards, hi-viz, flashing ambers all good too.

 

It has left me wondering where the 'Hymer-and-Smart' brigade stand - perhaps to be legal they all need to include servo-assisted braking to their set-ups.

[Lankytim]

  worldofceri said:

 

  Lankytim said:

It would be interesting to find out how much you have to remove before a car stops being a car. I wonder how I stand on my trailer made out half a Maestro van?

 

If you still have the chassis plate on it somewhere then the limit for the back axle would apply, I suppose. If not, then I believe you can go up to 750kg provided this doesn't exceed the load ratings of the tyres. Check your car's limit for unbraked towing (I believe HM's constabulary use 'Google' for this) as it's normally a lot lower than for towing a braked trailer.

 

I did have the weight plate but never fitted it as I didn't want it to be proved that the trailer was built fairy recently. I'm sure I read that newer trailers fall under stricter legislation than older ones.

 

Regarding the MAM of the smart being 990KGs, surely if it becomes classed as a trailer all bets are off as the plate is referring to a totally different class of vehicle. The 990Kgs would also include carrying a driver and passenger, which would be illegal if the vehicle was being towed by an A frame.

[barefoot]

Just a bit of a whatsit on the points below:

 

  Lankytim said:

... I'm sure I read that newer trailers fall under stricter legislation than older ones....

... The 990Kgs would also include carrying a driver and passenger, ...

 

T1 Trailer legislation becomes stricter in September this year, VIN plate/bar code/name of manufacturer/date of manufacture & certificate of conformity.

 

990kg doesn't include folk in it - a Smart frighteningly weighs about the same as a Cortina.

[messerschmitt owner]

  barefoot said:

Just a bit of a whatsit on the points below:

 

  Lankytim said:

... I'm sure I read that newer trailers fall under stricter legislation than older ones....

... The 990Kgs would also include carrying a driver and passenger, ...

 

T1 Trailer legislation becomes stricter in September this year, VIN plate/bar code/name of manufacturer/date of manufacture & certificate of conformity.

 

990kg doesn't include folk in it - a Smart frighteningly weighs about the same as a Cortina.

990kg does include people in it and a full tank of fuel

 

my smart roadster weighs 790kg empty - a Brabus roadster about 840kg.

 

a smart city coupe weighs less than a roadster.

[Guest]

  KruJoe said:

.

 

It has left me wondering where the 'Hymer-and-Smart' brigade stand - perhaps to be legal they all need to include servo-assisted braking to their set-ups.

 

My thoughts exactly.

On length of the towing combination alone some of these contraptions must be near HGV or summit licence territory?

[Ross_K]

.

[Ross_K]

Found this on the NTTA website: http://www.ntta.co.uk/faq/

 

  Quote

I have a motor home and want to tow a Fiat Seicento behind it using an A-frame. This car has a kerb weight under 750 kg so am I legal with this outfit?

 

Sorry no is the answer. The law regards this as an unbraked trailer and you are allowed to tow up to 750 kg Gross Trailer Weight, not a car’s kerb weight. The figure you have to use is the car’s Gross Vehicle Weight or Maximum Permitted Weight. This is usually at least 300 - 400 kg more than the kerb weight. We have no knowledge of any car sold in the UK that has a GVW under 750 kg. The only vehicle we know that is completely legal to tow with an A-frame is the French Aixam small "car". This is a full four seater and details can be obtained from Aixam UK on 01926 886100. An A-frame or dolly can only be used to recover a broken down vehicle to a place of safety. Transporting a car is, therefore, illegal. A-frames may be offered with a braking system that applies the car's brakes. These do not conform to the law as the car then becomes a "braked trailer" and has to conform to European Directives contained within the Construction and Use Regulations. It does not conform to the European Directive 71/320/EEC and amendments regarding braking requirements in any way. The use of this A-frame for transportation is illegal. It is still OK for use to recover a vehicle to a place of safety.

[Mr_Bo11ox]

It’s totally barmy to decide a trailer combo is overweight based on the gross vehicle weight innit, i don’t know who decided on that. You might as well give 3 points and a £60 fine to any anyone found driving a car capable of 80+ mph.

[jonathan_dyane]

  Mr_Bo11ox said:

It’s totally barmy to decide a trailer combo is overweight based on the gross vehicle weight innit, i don’t know who decided on that. You might as well give 3 points and a £60 fine to any anyone found driving a car capable of 80+ mph.

 

It is a load of shite, but it's what VOSA and the Police have now started doing; I have heard tell of people getting done for towing a barely loaded trailer, weighing less than the car's towing capacity, and getting done based on the fact that the trailer plate states a gross weight of more than the tow car is capable.

 

It's all a lot easier if the trailer weight plate happens to have fallen off...

[barefoot]

  messerschmitt owner said:

  barefoot said:

  Lankytim said:

... The 990Kgs would also include carrying a driver and passenger, ...

 

990kg does include people in it and a full tank of fuel

 

my smart roadster weighs 790kg empty - a Brabus roadster about 840kg.

 

a smart city coupe weighs less than a roadster.

 

Oh sorry, I stand corrected.

I used to A frame my Trabant - based on the fact that it actually weighed 595kg

Presumably that was wrong as well then.