FSO Vs Ford rant.

[warren t claim]

A couple of times on these hallowed pages I've mentioned my time a a fiver a night driver at the local banger auction and out of all the chod that went through the FSO 1300/1500 were memorable in their ability to be comprehensively fubared at less than five years old.

 

We now have a new champion....

 

The mass market family saloon!

 

I'm seeing scores of five year old Mondeos in the classifieds that either have injection pump and injector issues (diesel) of start up ok but become as smoky as a laboratory beagle when revved (petrol).

 

Similar massive faults seem to plague Vectras, Lagunas and the Citroen C5 as well. All seem capable of emptying your wallet and leaving you with a bad taste in your mouth. What's gone wrong? All these cars seem to have an alarming depreciation curves as well and are all available on a 54 plate or newer for under a grand! This is shocking, it took many years before the humble mk3 Cavalier dipped to sub £1000 level.

 

What's going wrong? When the new common rail diesels were introduced they were touted as the diesel equivalent of the 1990s rush to fuel inject petrols. Wrong. Fuel injected petrol engines worked well straight out of the box and to this day I've never had an issue with any of them.

 

Things must be bad if your so called premium family car has a lifespan similar to that of a Polish hand me down budget tin box.

[eddyramrod]

Things must be bad if your so called premium family car has a lifespan similar to that of a Polish hand me down budget tin box of 25 years ago.

 

EFA

 

Might also be worth pointing out that the Mk3 Cavalier, as mentioned, started from a whole lot closer to a grand than these much newer Mondeos etc. How much was a new Laguna five years ago? How much was a 1990 Cav, in 1990? It's disturbing, isn't it...

[garethj]

Oh dear. If we have to replace the family Volvo I was considering a Mondeo.

[fiatdaft]

Don't,buy another volvo instead.

[autofive]

i had a bloke come to pick up some cortina bits, he arrived in a 53 plate mondeo diesel. he bought it from the local auctions for 470. i said that seems cheap, yes, he said, because they are utter shite. and i will be selling it on at the first opportunity

[garethj]

Don't,buy another volvo instead.

After the last one, not a chance. The only Volvo I'd consider would be boxy, not a swish newer one.

[eddyramrod]

The only Volvo I'd consider would be boxy, not a swish newer one.

 

Well duh, of course! 740 GLE FTW

[freebird]

Could there be a remote possibility that it may have something to do with driving style?

I remember a story back in the 90s where Fords were getting a lot of issues with IIRC, Mondeos and something to do with the top end of the engines. They discovered that no real issues existed in Europe and the problems were pretty much confined to here.

They came to the conclusion that the Europeans drove the nads out of their cars and we didnt.

I can attest to that, my Uncle in Germany used to cane the arse off of his Renault 9, something I wouldnt have dared to do.

Is this whole problem generic interms of issues and values or is it confined to Blighty?

Ive got the modern Derv engine in my works 56 plate Transit and I usually rip the gonads out of it, it gets worked hard and 60,000 so far, no issues at all.

Just wondering.

[HillmanImp]

I think we may have very well discussed before the fact that the addidional gubbins on a modern car to make dizzlers clean and keep down the emissions in general make the cars so complicated when something goes wrong the cost of repair will outweigh the value of the vehicle.

 

There will probably be companies out there who are starting to make these parts cheaply. If not, it is simply going to meant that these cars are exported to somewhere that wants to repair them rather than just chop them in when something goes slightly wrong (the British Way). These other places might not have such stringent emmissons laws which will mean that the cars can carry on for several years with no issues once the part that we need to comply with the law has been removed.

 

We all know modern cars are shit for this very reason, hence why most of us drive old cars. At least we stand a chance of repairing our cars in the event of a breakdown without remapping the system etc.

[warren t claim]

I can understand that but the petrol engines seem just as wanky with the lifespan of a suicidal mayfly.

[Cavcraft]

Not so sure about that tbh. Petrol engines (at least modern ones) seem better/more reliable than their diesel counterparts. It would appear that sensors are the pain in the arse with modern stuff tbh and I'd bet that as mentioned earlier people not driving stuff properly doesn't help.

At work I reckon the only two vans that haven't suffered EGR failure are the two I use as I rev the knackers off them now and then to clear them out a bit.

 

*Edit: couple of exporters I've talked to fairly recently reckon modern cars don't export too well to poorer countries due to complexity of sensors/electronic stuff.

[Tartan58]

i had a bloke come to pick up some cortina bits, he arrived in a 53 plate mondeo diesel. he bought it from the local auctions for 470. i said that seems cheap, yes, he said, because they are utter shite. and i will be selling it on at the first opportunity

 

That's a bit strong, I wouldn't quite say "utter shite" I too drive a 53 plate diesel and find it a very practical, comfortable car with a good balance of performance and economy for its size, handles pretty well too for a big estate. I will agree that repairs can be expensive (I have had the joys of omg dmf failure) but (and may I say I'm not an experienced mechanic nor have I owned every car out there by any means) is that not the case for pretty much every car these days - they're built to last only as long as the warranty so the dealer can tie you down to another finance deal right away.

 

Would I buy another one? Probably not but I've no plans to change it for a couple of years yet, it does everything I need it to well and the odd repair bill is still costing me less than buying something equivalent which will probably still go wrong - at least I know what has been fixed and that it's been done properly.

[r.welfare]

Personally I'd blame cheap credit, cost-cutting and 20k service intervals (thanks to pressures from the leasing industry). Most cars just aren't serviced as well as they should be (even if you stick to the manufacturer's schedule), and the proliferation of emissions gubbins means that an unchecked and unfixed problem will cause knock-on issues down the line. Case in point - friend of my wife has a 2007 Volvo XC90 D5 which needed £1,600-worth of work to pass it's second MOT. This from a low-mileage car (say 10,000 miles a year) that's been dealer-serviced all it's life.

 

The diesel problems are well-documented, but I wonder if the petrol issues are down to high-pressure direct injection and super-slippery oils not working so well with the wear that occurs through racking up high mileage - I find that 10W40 is a better bet on my two (both manufacturers suggest 5W30) as they tend to use (but not visibly burn) more of the former these days.

 

The parallel with FSOs and the like is interesting because it was traditionally that kind of car that had an uncaring, no-maintenance owner back in the day - there was a reason for that cliff-like depreciation and short lifespan.

 

Fast forward to today and once your average rep wagon gets disposed of by it's original owner at 3 years old and 100k for £not much, Joe Punter looks at the 20k oil change interval and lack of cambelt and just does f-all to keep it looked after. Another 3 or 4 years of that and something goes wrong - fuel pump, gearbox, ABS pump, whatever - the high cost of fix relative to the value of the car means it's traded sharpish. The change of MOT regs for next year to cover more warning lights (airbag, EML) will continue this trend.

 

Six to 10 year old mass-market stuff is as cheap as it's ever been (cf. a 2001 Mondeo 1.8LX on Retro-Rides, a tidy 2-owner 78k job for £500), but you do have to be on your guard.

 

I would disagree that cars have become more expensive over the years, they haven't - price increases are far below RPI. Twenty-one years ago, Watanabe's Volvo 460 Turbo listed for £15,995; £28k in today's money. A basic S40 today lists at £18,245, with a 2-litre 145bhp engine giving economy and top speed (if not in-gear performance) that 1990's 460 Turbo man could only dream of. Same goes for equipment. Margins have been squeezed down - cost is eliminated as much as possible, and I suspect that is also a factor.

[ashmicro]

Personally I'd blame cheap credit, cost-cutting and 20k service intervals (thanks to pressures from the leasing industry.

 

 

Nail/head. You STILL hear people going on about how they had to sepnd, say, £500 in the last year on their car to keep it right, so they're going to buy a new car. Nuts. My mate has spent £700 in 3 years on his 1998 406 HDi, including servicing (for he is a spanner biff and gets a local independent to do the work). The car is worth nothing really, but it's worth £700/3 years to him. The car is on 200k and tip-top mechanically. Looks OK too.

[dieselnutjob]

My common rail Peugeots are both racking up high mileages. Over 210,000 now on the 806. Over 100,000 I think on the 607.

I use the following formula:-

 

Regularly rag them.

Remove all emissions devices that I can.

Use fully synth oil

Oil changes every 12k

Regular use of Millers diesel additive

 

I can justify all of the above if anyone is bored enough to hear it

 

I could work out the fuel savings I've scored on a combined 120,000 miles of motoring. I'm guessing I've used about 25% less fuel than equivalent petrol cars so quite a lot. The 806 does about 40mpg, the 607 about 36 (it's an auto). So that's about 3000 gallons of diesel compared with maybe 4000 if it had been petrol.

 

oh, and the 806 would be dead by now if petrol

[Bren]

One thing you must consider with modern tackle, especially diesels, is that they should not be run low on fuel.

 

The pump has to work much harder to move the fuel, also a lot of sediment gets moved with it. If this happens regularly then the filter will need more frequent replacement. Alas, this does'nt happen.

 

A friend of mine had a 53 plate Vauxhall signum 2.2 petrol that had an alarming appetite for high pressure fuel pumps. He complained that when driving on an incline the car would stutter. I asked him if there was much fuel in the tank - he replied "no".

 

When the fuel pump was replaced for the third time, he chose to speak to an independant vauxhall specialist. The specialist told him that when the pump fails, bits of the pump end up in the fuel system, which means tank, pipework, pressure regulator and injectors have to be removed and replaced as everything is contaminated. To be fair, he did say that this repair was'nt offered to the public, he only did it on warranty work due to the cost. Hence the cars appetite for fuel pumps.

 

Suffice to say, webuyanycar relieved my friend of his signum and gave him £600 for his troubles.

 

As stated in an earlier post, the credit culture of the new labour era meant that people did'nt care about looking after their cars because kneecap finance would lend them the money for another one. Not any more, people can't even afford the fuel for their car, never mind servicing. My local MOT tester told me that he is doing quite a bit of welding work, as people are having to hold on to their car for much longer. God knows what will happen when 2 year MOT's are introduced! Regarding my own cars, I do look after them, and I have had little mechanical trouble with them, I tend to get rid due to the condition of the bodywork. I currently have a 2001 mondeo TDDi, I have done 30k in 2 years, it an oil change every 5k and has needed only a couple of springs and a rear calliper.

 

A friend of mine bought a nissan almera a few years back due to an expanding family. He was worried about the fuel costs as it was 1800cc and was the largest engined car he had owned. He paid £8k for the car. I told him when he picked it up to fill the tank, and just keep it topped up. He pulled a face and said "forty quid - its a big hit" I told him he had just forked out £8k for the car, what's forty quid to fill it up? I could'nt believe my own ears.

 

Unfortunately ladies and gents, that is the mindset of people at this current time. As my parents used to say "All fur coat and no trousers!"

[dieselnutjob]

In the old days tanks used to rust out if people never filled them (at least that was what I was told). I don't suppose it's such a big deal with modern cars that have plastic tanks.

[Timewaster]

In the old days tanks used to rust out if people never filled them (at least that was what I was told). I don't suppose it's such a big deal with modern cars that have plastic tanks.

 

Fatha Tops has just been told that his 06 Suzuki Wagon R (yes, i know!) needs a new tank under a recall due to rust.

[Albert Ross]

In the old days tanks used to rust out if people never filled them (at least that was what I was told). I don't suppose it's such a big deal with modern cars that have plastic tanks.

 

Fatha Tops has just been told that his 06 Suzuki Wagon R (yes, i know!) needs a new tank under a recall due to rust.

 

Recall also live on Agila "A" models.

[Formula Autos]

I've got a Mondiesel on an '04 plate. 80K thus far under its wheels, and still going great. Before I got it, my Dad had it, from nearly new (maybe 15K on the clock at most when he bought it). I know it's got the ticking timebomb that is a DMF, but it's (thouch wood, fingers crossed, etc. etc.) showing no signs of any issues. I think this might be because:

 

It does a mix of urban and A road driving almost every day. Usually 50 miles or more.

 

I usually drive it like I stole it.

 

I take it on long 500+ mile journeys around Scotland at least twice a year.

 

I ignore Ford's service schedule and have it serviced when it feels like it needs it, or every 10K, whichever happens sooner.

 

I occasionally whang a bit of Redex diesel treatment in.

 

I take it to a trusted local garage, who I'm sure service it thoroughly, rather than the main stealer.

 

I never let the fuel level go much below 1/4 of the tank.

 

I actually look after it, unlike most people, who seem to regards cars as nothing more than expensive white goods.

 

 

Hopefully (DMF allowing) I will get it up to a high mileage. 100K seems easily achievable but, as I say, I've looked after it (and I know my Dad did too when he had it)*.

 

*Expect a thread anytime soon about DMF failure/expensive repairs/broken Mondiesel for sale.

[Tartan58]

One thing you must consider with modern tackle, especially diesels, is that they should not be run low on fuel.

 

The pump has to work much harder to move the fuel, also a lot of sediment gets moved with it. If this happens regularly then the filter will need more frequent replacement. Alas, this does'nt happen.

 

Never heard that one before - I always run the tank down to between a quarter and empty before filling right up again, must try and remember to fill up earlier in future.

[dieselnutjob]

I think that the pump might get upset if it's running totally dry, but I doubt that running it nearly empty would do any harm.