New LAND ROVER DEFENDER... Thoughts?...

[Mr_Bo11ox]

Land-rover need to come up with somthing like the Land Cruiser I reckon if they want to remain a force in 'four wheel driving' and not just become a producer of footballer's wives chariots. Folk who want to drive right out into the aussie outback or across the desert or up onto a massive glacier in Iceland use japanese 4x4's, these are the people that L-R should be chasing. If they 'get' them they'll by default get the other sales they need to make it viable. This argument about the new landy has to be cheap and straightforward to fix is nonsense. No cars are cheap and straightforward to fix nowadays, and if you think thats important, you've already expected that you're going to need to fix it regularly, which is already a failure before you've even started. No-one raves on about what a simple utilitarian machine the landcruiser is, its more like a Lexus with big wheels nowadays. But, its so reliable that folk know they can freeze it to death, boil it, drive it through dust storms, wade it through rivers and bash it about and it will keep going regardless. They dont choose landrovers cos even though theyre easy to fix, these people dont want to be arsed with fixing their steed in the back of beyond, they expect it to not need fixing.

 

LR need to produce a capable tough, spacious and comfortable 4x4 and go to town on the details - wiring, electronics, systems etc to make sure that stuff is indestructible so the thing ALWAYS keeps going. If it gets a reputation for being more abuse-proof than a Landcruiser, they will win.

 

This business of the L-R being somthing the local council buys for lobbing a ton of gravel in the back is daft, they buy transit pickups for that stuff and rightly so.

[theorganist]

statsitics can prove anything.....

 

Precisely. I have a collection of Motoring Which and Which magazine car buying guides from the seventies and eighties.

 

The Ford range, particularly the Cortina and Sierra were considered below average for reliability. However when you read some of the more mainstream magazines and speak to fleet managers from the time they paint a completely different picture.

 

Which seem to get their statistics from very small samples and also a very narrow demographic of drivers!

[dollywobbler]

I can't agree that the P38 is actually as wonderful as you say Pete - I knew a bloke who helped on the development of it and he was horrified at some of the bodges - mainly electrical. Mind you, not like Rover really had the funds to do anything else at that point. They did the best they could, which means that you'll spend a pretty large amount of time chasing faults. Great that the kit can tell you perhaps, but cold comfort if you're stranded at the side of the road somewhere. I agree that they're probably not as bad as most people make out, just as the TD5 engine really isn't so bad. Believe the press and you'd expect all TD5 engined vehicles to have disappeared long ago - but they haven't...

 

Problem is, Land Rover could make a vehicle that really is the basic utility vehicle and no-one would buy it. Instead people will just buy a flashy Jap 4x4, that's all crew cab and sod all luggage space. I've seen builders with them, with so much stuff packed on the roof that they look like an Indian bus. None of their stuff actually fits IN the vehicle, but they don't seem to care. It's certainly noticeable around here that while Land Rovers are still popular, it's Nissan and Isuzu who seem to be providing most of the 4x4s.

[gtd2000]

The Defender is the only one I would consider buying - I suspect LR won't cock it up as military and civil conracts are its bread and butter - I would be surprised if they turn it into a girls blouse.

 

If I was looking to buy a 4x4 new at the moment sorry to say it would be a Jap...Landcruiser I suspect

 

Well they didn't care about the military contracts back in the 1980's when the new Defender series was rolled out - they supplied the military with all of the warped engine blocks. All of which were ultimately replaced according to a mate in the REME at the time.

 

I'd take the Top Gear angle on this and look at what most 3rd world soldiering/warmongering types are driving around in - I suspect the number of Land Rovers used are pretty insignificant.....

 

I always remember having a good snigger to myself up in the Troodos mountains when all of the Land Rovers (using chains) were sliding all over the snow covered road and could not make it into the base. A squaddie in a bog standard civilian Suzuki SJ drove straight up the road into the camp on road tyres....LMFAO

[gtd2000]

They're aiming very high, but I think they may just manage it.

 

Are you having a laugh?

 

I know that during my own experience driving Land Rovers in the Army I was never impressed with them at all - even back in the 1980's they were quite unreliable lumps of shit. Forget all this nonsense about the modern varieties having too many electronics - they were shite even when they were the most basic utilitarian vehicles!

 

Now if you like the look of a Land Rover that's all well and good - I too like the design of them - but reliability it's not a Land Rover trait in my experience - YMMV of course but there's a good reason the Japs took over.

 

I didn't say they've managed it, I said they're aiming high.

 

Land Rover in the '80s was in the same situation as the rest of the UK car industry. Ruined by accountants and union gobshites. Since then they're on their third set of owners. Ford improved the quality tenfold, BMW raped and pillaged, and JLR are doing their utmost to get the new stuff right. Which is why they're bringing in new models and much much higher quality control than has ever happened there before.

 

The thing is - an excellent paint job does not make a car any more reliable - I think they need to re-focus their efforts in areas that actually improve reliability?

 

Land Rover has had decades to aim higher and like most of the products we produce in the UK (and EU) it must be that we simply don't care what old toss we turn out. It might be that they ARE aiming higher - but the low level of their aim is woefully short of expected industry standards it seems.

 

We can build Japanese cars here perfectly well, so it can't be the British workers that are to blame for assembling piss poor British/Indian cars?

 

The same holds true in the American car industry - they have been producing crap for decades but the transplant Japanese and Korean car factories can turn out first rate vehicles as far as reliability is concerned.

 

The real irony is that the Asians came to the West for help in starting a car industry - why has the West fallen so far behind? Is it just that they don't care?

[CIH]

I saw one of those new Vicy Beckham lifestyle wagon thingstoday, opposite an '03 Defender 110 in the petrol station as it happens. I wasn't offeded by it's presence but I have no emotion invested in LR.

 

'sould have gotten a picture, really......

 

Yeah, main difference is that the XF is so attractive that even I like it. The XJ is just horrible.

 

See, I'm the opposite on that. I never really liked the XF, it's a pleasant enough shape but the lights don't suit it, and I keep mistaking them for Mondeos. The XJ, though, might be as elegant as a welly full of curry, but it's interesting. It's more of a challenge to the Jaguar senses. I like it, but can understand the thaasands of folk who don't.

 

 

I hated the headlights on the earlier XF models, but the facelift is a vast improvement. I see a dark blue XJ most days which does look lovely

 

I very mildly prefered XF, even though it looked both angry and surprised at the same time. Somewhat o/t but we had this in for wheel geometry recently;

 

 

widest C-pillars evah. Must have been 2 1/2 foot wide, I kid the not.

[Albert Ross]

I still lean on the side of the Utility users. Where are they going to chuck their tool boxes, sheep, hay, combine harvester parts, bus spares, Ambulance spares etc? I have seen locally to me, LRs in use towing in Milk Floats, Ambulances, Minibuses, Taxis (that was me!) and a 14 ton Bread Truck (Me also). This new one, as pretty as it LOOKS, will be impractical for anyone who needs to use it for a practical purpose! Like I said before, where will the snowplough go? The Recovery gear? The cherry-picker? The oils and fluids needed to get the heavy plant functional again after an "in the field" repair? A utility vehicle like a current model Defender is what's needed. Perhaps they could keep them line built by hand, but to special order only.... I reckon that's a cracking idea. That way the purists, Armies, and utility converters can keep their designs and customers happy!

[gtd2000]

I still lean on the side of the Utility users. Where are they going to chuck their tool boxes, sheep, hay, combine harvester parts, bus spares, Ambulance spares etc? I have seen locally to me, LRs in use towing in Milk Floats, Ambulances, Minibuses, Taxis (that was me!) and a 14 ton Bread Truck (Me also). This new one, as pretty as it LOOKS, will be impractical for anyone who needs to use it for a practical purpose! Like I said before, where will the snowplough go? The Recovery gear? The cherry-picker? The oils and fluids needed to get the heavy plant functional again after an "in the field" repair? A utility vehicle like a current model Defender is what's needed. Perhaps they could keep them line built by hand, but to special order only.... I reckon that's a cracking idea. That way the purists, Armies, and utility converters can keep their designs and customers happy!

 

I hear what you are saying but if you think about Land Rover (traditional) it never took off that greatly in the USA where they love all of that utility stuff you mention above - you see pickups performing all of those functions all over the place but very seldom a Land Rover.

 

I feel that the Land Rover (traditional) is a bit like the original Mini. When they came out there were very much at the top of their game, these days they are just too out of date or out-classed for the mainstream market.

 

Where Land Rover still wins is with marketting - they just need to make the products match the hype and that's it - job done

[gtd2000]

I very mildly prefered XF, even though it looked both angry and surprised at the same time. Somewhat o/t but we had this in for wheel geometry recently;

 

 

widest C-pillars evah. Must have been 2 1/2 foot wide, I kid the not.

 

Have to admit I find the Jaguar range very tasty in general right now - but at the same time they reportedly suffer from the same reliability malaise as Land Rover which really is a pity.

 

I often wonder why companies that make great looking cars - Jaguar, Alfa Romeo etc don't just subcontract the engines and electrics out to somebody like Toyota/Lexus and be done with all the problems

[Pete-M]

I can't agree that the P38 is actually as wonderful as you say Pete - I knew a bloke who helped on the development of it and he was horrified at some of the bodges - mainly electrical. Mind you, not like Rover really had the funds to do anything else at that point. They did the best they could, which means that you'll spend a pretty large amount of time chasing faults. Great that the kit can tell you perhaps, but cold comfort if you're stranded at the side of the road somewhere. I agree that they're probably not as bad as most people make out.

 

Oh, I'm not saying it's wonderful. Just that it's nowhere near as bad as people make out. Everything in mine seems to work as it should, yet if you speak to the "Bearded Gurus" they'll tell you that nothing worked the day they left the showroom and that the 86" S1 is the only Land Rover to have. Which is plainly bollocks. If you need something that'll cruise quietly at 90 mph as well as the ability to go anywhere the Series 1 ain't it.

 

The P38 is without doubt the Range Rover's darkest hour in some respects, but it's also a bloody clever thing in others. It was a big step forwards in ability from the Classic but as always with Rover built slightly too cheaply. Now the P38 has been around for 17 years the knowledge is there to actually make them work as they should.

 

The L322 was as big a leap forward again, but this time they very nearly got it spot on from the off. Other than the exploding front diffs on early ones, and the odd electrical mishap, I've not seen or heard of many L322s with problems.

 

The Freeloader was a disaster and shouldn't have been released at all with the K-series lump. The only good thing to come out of the Freeloader fiasco was the end of Rover itself. Land Rover (owned by Ford at the time) admitted there was a problem with the head gaskets and did what they could to put it right, Rover denied any problem and went pop - much in the manner of the K-series itself.

 

If Land Rover can continue to improve quality as they have been they'll be laughing. They're developing new stuff all the time and they appear to be making it work properly. I wish them all the best. If the painting operation in any way reflects how they're doing the rest of the cars then I think they could well be about to take over the world - which will, of course, start people hating Land Rovers.

[PaykanHunter]

More...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[M'coli]

Hmm, they seem to have picked the only dry day to take this shot - unless it's a mock up - that's the A894 heading towards the Kylesku bridge:

A bloody lovely part of the world.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=kylesku ... 5,,1,-3.08

[John F]

I'm still not impressed with it.

 

It looks flimsy (stpid wrap-around plastic bumpers) and impractical (low roof / loading bay) - and what the fuck is that revolting convertible supposed to be? The product of gang-raping a MINI by a D-Type Jag and a Hummer?

[PaykanHunter]

Hmm, they seem to have picked the only dry day to take this shot - unless it's a mock up - that's the A894 heading towards the Kylesku bridge:

That photo is entirely a Photoshop job Mate!

[Albert Ross]

The wheels appear to have been styled using a Mk1 Sierra air filter housing as stimulus....

[Negative Creep]

I really like that. Yes its a bit OTT at the moment but it will be toned down for production, and with some less blingy wheels it will look lovely

[gtd2000]

I really like that. Yes its a bit OTT at the moment but it will be toned down for production, and with some less blingy wheels it will look lovely

 

I think it looks pretty cool as well to be honest.

[Father Ted]

 

For a utility vehicle it looks too fragile.

Fora lifestyle vehicle for lesbians and hairdressers it looks fine and will sell loads.

[M'coli]

Hmm, they seem to have picked the only dry day to take this shot - unless it's a mock up - that's the A894 heading towards the Kylesku bridge:

That photo is entirely a Photoshop job Mate!

Apparently not so, unless the whole of this vid-ay-oh is computer generated:

http://vimeo.com/29525568

[dollywobbler]

Wow. Like the car or not, that's beautifully filmed.

[gtd2000]

I was out for a walk the other day and note that Land Rover now have an aquarium option for the Discovery!