Weird engines

[quicksilver]

17 hours ago, D.E said:

FTFs such as this one have British bodywork (Motor Panels) and a Detroit two stroke. They do indeed sound great.

Funnily enough there was one of those at Gaydon on Sunday as well as the Commer TS3. I didn't get to hear it running though

[Inspector Morose]

All worthy engines, the above. But are any of them truly weird?  Sit down while I tell you a tale of an almost bus engine whose designer went on to help the war.

It was the early 1930s, and Bristol Commercial Vehicles were on the lookout for an engine that could be mounted under the floor of a bus so that more passenger seats could be fitted within the permitted dimensions of the time (also one of the reasons why underfloor-engined buses gained so much popularity in the 5-s and 60s) AEC had toyed with putting the engine on the side of the bus, under a sideways facing seat (the AEC Q) but Bristol wanted to banish the engine from the passenger compartment altogether.

Enter one Charles Benjamin Redrup. At the 1929 Olympia air show, he exhibited a novel engine design of his own creation. Ot consisted of a number of cylinders arranged like the barrel of a gun whose pistons were connected, via ball and socket type joints, to a disc mounted at an angle to an output shaft. As the pistons drove down, the force was 'steered' by the slanted disc arrangement to turn the output shaft. Christened the 'wobble plate' engine, it showed promise as a compact and powerful engine that could be used where space and weight were at a premium. Bristol engaged Redrup and tasked him to design a larger version for use in a bus chassis so that the body could be placed over it, freeing up vital fare paying passenger space.

His design was of a nine cylinder engine with rotary disc valves and could produce 145 bhp from its seven litre capacity, an unheard of output at the time for a bus engine. Due to the lack of unbalanced forces withing the engine, it was also quite free revving and the power output was achieved at an astronomical 2900rpm. 

The engine was fitted to a single deck chassis that had been shown at a recent commercial motor show. Known as 'the black chassis', it was used in experiments involving this engine and was never bodied in this form, apart from a shed like structure to protect riding engineers. The engine was mounted at the front in this instance, the idea being that once proven, a new chassis would be designed to take full advantage of the compactness of the engine. Ala,s this chassis was never designed as the engine, although showing great power and performance when running but getting it running was another matter. The main problem was the rotary valving bot being able to reliably seal the combustion area, making starting the engine very difficult indeed.  On one test, the chassis was towed over five miles before the engine roared into life. On good days, the engine would consume a couple of sets of fully charged batteries. oil consumption, again due to the rotary valve, was said to be 'rather high'.

The engine went through numerous redesigns, with little success, before a change in management at BCV cancelled the project and let Redrup go. He went on to refine the wobble plate engine, this time using conventional poppet valves, and had some success selling it to the military as a propulsion unit for torpedos. One other small job for the military was that he designed the hydraulic drive mechanism for Wallis' bouncing bomb. After the way he spent the rest of his life designing axial engines for aircraft, and constructed a 250cc radial three-cylinder engined motorbike using a Royal Enfield frame. This bike still exists in the Sammy Miller Museum in New Milton, Hampshire.

[Leyland Worldmaster]

16 minutes ago, Inspector Morose said:

All worthy engines, the above. But are any of them truly weird?  Sit down while I tell you a tale of an almost bus engine whose designer went on to help the war.

It was the early 1930s, and Bristol Commercial Vehicles were on the lookout for an engine that could be mounted under the floor of a bus so that more passenger seats could be fitted within the permitted dimensions of the time (also one of the reasons why underfloor-engined buses gained so much popularity in the 5-s and 60s) AEC had toyed with putting the engine on the side of the bus, under a sideways facing seat (the AEC Q) but Bristol wanted to banish the engine from the passenger compartment altogether.

Enter one Charles Benjamin Redrup. At the 1929 Olympia air show, he exhibited a novel engine design of his own creation. Ot consisted of a number of cylinders arranged like the barrel of a gun whose pistons were connected, via ball and socket type joints, to a disc mounted at an angle to an output shaft. As the pistons drove down, the force was 'steered' by the slanted disc arrangement to turn the output shaft. Christened the 'wobble plate' engine, it showed promise as a compact and powerful engine that could be used where space and weight were at a premium. Bristol engaged Redrup and tasked him to design a larger version for use in a bus chassis so that the body could be placed over it, freeing up vital fare paying passenger space.

His design was of a nine cylinder engine with rotary disc valves and could produce 145 bhp from its seven litre capacity, an unheard of output at the time for a bus engine. Due to the lack of unbalanced forces withing the engine, it was also quite free revving and the power output was achieved at an astronomical 2900rpm. 

The engine was fitted to a single deck chassis that had been shown at a recent commercial motor show. Known as 'the black chassis', it was used in experiments involving this engine and was never bodied in this form, apart from a shed like structure to protect riding engineers. The engine was mounted at the front in this instance, the idea being that once proven, a new chassis would be designed to take full advantage of the compactness of the engine. Ala,s this chassis was never designed as the engine, although showing great power and performance when running but getting it running was another matter. The main problem was the rotary valving bot being able to reliably seal the combustion area, making starting the engine very difficult indeed.  On one test, the chassis was towed over five miles before the engine roared into life. On good days, the engine would consume a couple of sets of fully charged batteries. oil consumption, again due to the rotary valve, was said to be 'rather high'.

The engine went through numerous redesigns, with little success, before a change in management at BCV cancelled the project and let Redrup go. He went on to refine the wobble plate engine, this time using conventional poppet valves, and had some success selling it to the military as a propulsion unit for torpedos. One other small job for the military was that he designed the hydraulic drive mechanism for Wallis' bouncing bomb. After the way he spent the rest of his life designing axial engines for aircraft, and constructed a 250cc radial three-cylinder engined motorbike using a Royal Enfield frame. This bike still exists in the Sammy Miller Museum in New Milton, Hampshire.

Rabbit hole:

http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/POWER/unusualICeng/axial-ICeng/axial-IC.htm

[Asimo]

Cylinder axis parallel to shaft. Connected by a wobbly thing.

 

https://modelenginenews.org/cardfile/aero35.html

[High Jetter]

2 hours ago, Inspector Morose said:

All worthy engines, the above. But are any of them truly weird?  Sit down while I tell you a tale of an almost bus engine whose designer went on to help the war.

It was the early 1930s, and Bristol Commercial Vehicles were on the lookout for an engine that could be mounted under the floor of a bus so that more passenger seats could be fitted within the permitted dimensions of the time (also one of the reasons why underfloor-engined buses gained so much popularity in the 5-s and 60s) AEC had toyed with putting the engine on the side of the bus, under a sideways facing seat (the AEC Q) but Bristol wanted to banish the engine from the passenger compartment altogether.

Enter one Charles Benjamin Redrup. At the 1929 Olympia air show, he exhibited a novel engine design of his own creation. Ot consisted of a number of cylinders arranged like the barrel of a gun whose pistons were connected, via ball and socket type joints, to a disc mounted at an angle to an output shaft. As the pistons drove down, the force was 'steered' by the slanted disc arrangement to turn the output shaft. Christened the 'wobble plate' engine, it showed promise as a compact and powerful engine that could be used where space and weight were at a premium. Bristol engaged Redrup and tasked him to design a larger version for use in a bus chassis so that the body could be placed over it, freeing up vital fare paying passenger space.

His design was of a nine cylinder engine with rotary disc valves and could produce 145 bhp from its seven litre capacity, an unheard of output at the time for a bus engine. Due to the lack of unbalanced forces withing the engine, it was also quite free revving and the power output was achieved at an astronomical 2900rpm. 

The engine was fitted to a single deck chassis that had been shown at a recent commercial motor show. Known as 'the black chassis', it was used in experiments involving this engine and was never bodied in this form, apart from a shed like structure to protect riding engineers. The engine was mounted at the front in this instance, the idea being that once proven, a new chassis would be designed to take full advantage of the compactness of the engine. Ala,s this chassis was never designed as the engine, although showing great power and performance when running but getting it running was another matter. The main problem was the rotary valving bot being able to reliably seal the combustion area, making starting the engine very difficult indeed.  On one test, the chassis was towed over five miles before the engine roared into life. On good days, the engine would consume a couple of sets of fully charged batteries. oil consumption, again due to the rotary valve, was said to be 'rather high'.

The engine went through numerous redesigns, with little success, before a change in management at BCV cancelled the project and let Redrup go. He went on to refine the wobble plate engine, this time using conventional poppet valves, and had some success selling it to the military as a propulsion unit for torpedos. One other small job for the military was that he designed the hydraulic drive mechanism for Wallis' bouncing bomb. After the way he spent the rest of his life designing axial engines for aircraft, and constructed a 250cc radial three-cylinder engined motorbike using a Royal Enfield frame. This bike still exists in the Sammy Miller Museum in New Milton, Hampshire.

This is history, preserved here. Thanks for sharing.

[Richard_FM]

22 hours ago, RayMK said:

The reason for the Rover 2000 P6's unorthodox front suspension was to give the engine bay sufficient width for a possible gas turbine engine in the future.

Photo of the T4, By Matthias v.d. Elbe - Own work, CC BY-SA 3.0, https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?curid=42353399

Yes I had heard of that.

[RayMK]

@Inspector Morose  Swashplate engines are probably the most frequent to crop up under the 'rotary' experimental news items. I had not heard of the one in your post. Thanks for posting it.  The concept was invented in 1917 by Anthony Michell.  I seem to recall that one or two very similar devices got as far as testing after  WW2 but generally ran in to similar problems then a lack of funding.  There have been at least a couple of re-invented swashplate engines floated on you-tube by hopeful designers trying to attract funding.  I think one design may have got a bit further than a single prototype before going quiet.

[castros_bro]

I used to work with these things,  had Detroit diesels on the back driving 3 hydraulic pumps which drove swash plate motors between the wheels, ie 4 wheel drive and 4 wheel steer.

[MrT]

The Napier Nomad was an attempt to create an engine that would cruise economally, but also have plenty of power for take off or combat. The main use envisaged for the Nomad  was in a re-engined Shackleton that would have a much longer endurance than the Griffon powered versions. There were two versions. Both hideously complicated and basically crap. Napier was running out of steam by the fifties, it's only other notable aero engine, the Sabre took most of the war to work reliably in the Typhoon and Tempest (A Typhoon being rebuilt to flying condition, so I may hear what a Sabre sounds like) 

The Vulture was a disaster in the Manchester as it never developed full rated power and so the pilots were forced to run the engine at full throttle, which just made things worse. Rolls Royce was under resourced with the demands of developing and producing enough Merlins to go around as well as working on a much better 2,000 plus horsepower engine in the shape of the Griffon. The Vulture was also intended to power the Tornado, which shared a rear fuselage. wing and tail with the Typhoon. Apparently, apart from not delivering the expected horsepower, it caused few problems in the Tornado 

[Alan G]

17 hours ago, RayMK said:

@Inspector Morose  Swashplate engines are probably the most frequent to crop up under the 'rotary' experimental news items. I had not heard of the one in your post. Thanks for posting it.  The concept was invented in 1917 by Anthony Michell.  I seem to recall that one or two very similar devices got as far as testing after  WW2 but generally ran in to similar problems then a lack of funding.  There have been at least a couple of re-invented swashplate engines floated on you-tube by hopeful designers trying to attract funding.  I think one design may have got a bit further than a single prototype before going quiet.

I don't know of any production use of swashplate or wobble plate engines in road vehicles. However they have been used very succesfully for powering torpedoes, running on a mono propellant (so no need for a separate oxygen supply).   

[castros_bro]

Slightly off topic,  this Dolmette made an appearance when I lived in Germany.