ULEZ nonsense.. Someone make it make sense..

[uk_senator]

1 hour ago, Jerzy Woking said:

Yes, there is an Historic class of car here, that is cars over 30 years old. But then there a number of criteria to be met, one being it should not be modified at all. Its quite complicated when you get into it

https://carinsurancespain.es/historic-vehicle-regulations-in-spain-2023/amp/

Plus most Spaniards buy a car new, and run it into the ground over the next 15 to 20 years. They are scrapped because although the bodywork is rust free, the engine, gearbox, electrics or suspension are knackered. Usually all four.

They do have scrappage schemes here, so if your  car is on its last legs, you can trade it in for a new one. From my observations, it's the way most Spanish view cars.

See, 30 years, which would see most of my old Fiats as being exempt. And seeing Scotland's also got a 30 year cutoff on these shores, makes it all the more irritating.

[Jerzy Woking]

7 minutes ago, uk_senator said:

See, 30 years, which would see most of my old Fiats as being exempt. And seeing Scotland's also got a 30 year cutoff on these shores, makes it all the more irritating.

It was car aged 25 years or older up until January 2023, when the age was raised to 30.

[uk_senator]

Just now, Jerzy Woking said:

It was car aged 25 years or older up until January 2023, when the age was raised to 30.

So was ours till not that long ago.. 30 years is fairer, seeing as so few cars make it past 20. There's going to be such a dearth of 80`s & 90`s cars in the future with all these schemes. I`m sure I read somewhere that 80`s cars were as rare, if not rarer that 70`s cars already..

[Jerzy Woking]

I don't see many pre 2000 cars for sale here. Most have been scrapped a worn out, or scrapped due to the numerous scrappage schemes.

Those you see for sale are either rare and expensive, or basket cases/barn finds that have years of taxes owing on them.

[wuvvum]

11 hours ago, uk_senator said:

Its literally the same engine, there may be a minor mapping difference between the two for different driving characteristics, which may explain the difference in C02, or maybe not, maybe its a data input error, I genuinely don't know. What I do know is, those engines are literally interchangeable in every way, & it was used in numerous Alfa`s in all body styles at that time, & it especially doesn't make sense that the marginally older one, with higher recorded C02, is compliant & the other is not. 

NOx emissions will be related, at least in part, to fuel consumption, and an identical engine can have very different fuel consumption figures when fitted to different cars, as it is affected by factors like weight, aerodynamics, gearing, tyre width and so on.

[uk_senator]

10 minutes ago, wuvvum said:

NOx emissions will be related, at least in part, to fuel consumption, and an identical engine can have very different fuel consumption figures when fitted to different cars, as it is affected by factors like weight, aerodynamics, gearing, tyre width and so on.

Yes, I realise that.

[busmansholiday]

1 hour ago, Dave_Q said:

Brum and Bristol are the only ones outside London with cars included. Same as ULEZ euro 4 petrol/ euro 6 diesel. All the others are commercials only.

Hence why this Mercedes Vito Traveliner had to pay to go to Sheffield and Bradford:

While this very different Mercedes Vito Traveliner does not despite only being euro 5:

As it's fitted with the NOx-killing factory option Z42:

Amusingly 4 and a bit tonnes of diesel powered motorhome (registered as Private Heavy Goods) that averages 24mpg is exempt from them all, unlike my 50mpg diesel Ibiza.

Just have to take up a shit load more road space.

[willswitchengage]

Are NOx emissions for the Euro standards limited by absolute exhaust emissions, or as a % of that vehicle's tailpipe?

Worked examples:

If the former, a smaller car can have a dirtier engine as it's a solute emissions are lower, whereas a large vehicle has to have a very clean engine as its absolute emissions are so high - it will naturally produc more NOx.

If the latter, then all vehicles must have equally clean engines but the absolute emissions of NOx for larger vehicles will be greater than those of smaller.

I'm guessing the former? Which may explain why typically only larger vehicles use SCR systems.

[Dave_Q]

4 minutes ago, willswitchengage said:

Are NOx emissions for the Euro standards limited by absolute exhaust emissions, or as a % of that vehicle's tailpipe?

Worked examples:

If the former, a smaller car can have a dirtier engine as it's a solute emissions are lower, whereas a large vehicle has to have a very clean engine as its absolute emissions are so high - it will naturally produc more NOx.

If the latter, then all vehicles must have equally clean engines but the absolute emissions of NOx for larger vehicles will be greater than those of smaller.

I'm guessing the former? Which may explain why typically only larger vehicles use SCR systems.

It's grams (or milligrams I guess as it's 0.08g) per km measured over a cycle. For cars that is, >3.5t are in g/kWh. Both a form of absolute measurement.

The logic still applies though as a lighter car with the same engine would require less power to drive the km so would have lower NOx for the same engine.

SCR systems are universal at Euro 6 (diesel) though as you can't get down to the limit without.

[SiC]

35 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

SCR systems are universal at Euro 6 (diesel) though as you can't get down to the limit without.

There are a lot of diesel euro 6 cars that don't have SCR.

E.g. my parents 2017 520D is Euro 6b and doesn't have one. The Diesel Honda Civic Mk9 2016+ is Euro 6 without an SCR. I'm sure many more out there.

[Dave_Q]

Fair enough, my experience is more trucks.

I would guess they are using Lean NOx Traps which store the NOx then burn it off similar to a DPF regen.

I would also guess they are among the cars that are furthest from their lab results if tested in the real world.

[uk_senator]

Seeing you guys talking about SCR`s & so on brings me onto another point.. 

As we know, emissions of all types are determined by the manufacturer & are bench tested to a set of preset engine ranges. As we all know, theres been a number of cases where manufacturers were modifying ECU`s to behave a certain way to meet requirements, & even if you dont "rig" the test, who drives to those parameter's in the real world??

The issue is, no one drives like that, & in an effort to lower tax bands & so on, manufacturers have been fitting smaller & smaller engines to cars. I would argue, that in the real world, a larger engined car will be driven much more gently as they don't need to be constantly redlined to maintain decent progress, so, will have lower real world emissions..

One of the Youtubers tried to quantify that argument by strapping a testing rig up to his car (I think it was a Mk3 Gold TDi?) to compare it to his Dads (I think?) current car (Maybe a Skoda?), unfortunately there was an issue with the equipment, so it didn't go to plan, but I`d love to see that done on a number of vehicles, of various ages.

[Metal Guru]

On 05/07/2023 at 09:30, uk_senator said:

Also, yesterday, 2 huge USAF Boeings went over London at low altitude, one circled south London a couple of times, how much did they add to our pollution levels compared to Dorris doing 700 miles a year in her 1999 1.0 Yaris, but that's totally ignored...

Like the 40mph “reduced emission” bit of the A40 between Heathrow , busiest airport in the world and Northolt, home of Boeings as above and private jets.

I guess this will come under the new ULEZ?

[Dave_Q]

11 minutes ago, uk_senator said:

Seeing you guys talking about SCR`s & so on brings me onto another point.. 

As we know, emissions of all types are determined by the manufacturer & are bench tested to a set of preset engine ranges. As we all know, theres been a number of cases where manufacturers were modifying ECU`s to behave a certain way to meet requirements, & even if you dont "rig" the test, who drives to those parameter's in the real world??

The issue is, no one drives like that, & in an effort to lower tax bands & so on, manufacturers have been fitting smaller & smaller engines to cars. I would argue, that in the real world, a larger engined car will be driven much more gently as they don't need to be constantly redlined to maintain decent progress, so, will have lower real world emissions..

One of the Youtubers tried to quantify that argument by strapping a testing rig up to his car (I think it was a Mk3 Gold TDi?) to compare it to his Dads (I think?) current car (Maybe a Skoda?), unfortunately there was an issue with the equipment, so it didn't go to plan, but I`d love to see that done on a number of vehicles, of various ages.

The EC did bring in RDE (real driving emissions) which is measured with PEMS (portable emissions measurement system, like the lad with the mk3 golf) so basically, the regs state that you can strap the kit to the car and drive it more or less anywhere (some rules on conditions such as severe hot/cold temperature, towing, minimum trip length) and it should perform the same (+- a bit) as over a fixed cycle.

This was a response to diesel gate and only came in I think around 2017 so arguably the cars that the CAZ/ULEZ are trying to get people into have a medium/high risk of having real emissions higher than stated.

But still cleaner than the cars they replace.

[uk_senator]

3 minutes ago, Dave_Q said:

The EC did bring in RDE (real driving emissions) which is measured with PEMS (portable emissions measurement system, like the lad with the mk3 golf) so basically, the regs state that you can strap the kit to the car and drive it more or less anywhere (some rules on conditions such as severe hot/cold temperature, towing, minimum trip length) and it should perform the same (+- a bit) as over a fixed cycle.

This was a response to diesel gate and only came in I think around 2017 so arguably the cars that the CAZ/ULEZ are trying to get people into have a medium/high risk of having real emissions higher than stated.

But still cleaner than the cars they replace.

Diesel-wise, yeah, I`d expect them to be "cleaner", petrol-wise, I suspect, at best, not so much..

And when I say "cleaner" when it comes to diesels, I mean smaller particulates, or saved up particulates that get dumped at opportune moments, thing is, as numerous scientists have been pointing out, these microscopic particulates are not only ingested deeper into the respiratory system, but also through the skin, eyes etc, so are actually causing more cancer..