project 2002 Renault Clio II 172

[dome]

32 minutes ago, SiC said:

I was just looking through the belt change procedure and it reminded me about them. Not cheap for genuine are they ?

50:50 whether I change them. I'd rather not but ... going on my luck thus far, what are the chances that they'll need doing? ?

Could be worse, you could be doing one that didn't need done anyway! I told myself my seals had been changed at the same time as the brand new timing belt, dephaser and pullley assembly which had been fitted about 5 miles before i got it ?

[SiC]

Yeah I can't find any history of dephaser, cam seals or the like. Quite a few exhausts though!? I've counted one centre section and three back boxes.

The one and only cambelt receipt was bit of a whopper job.



Remember these are 2007 prices too.

[SiC]

Made the fatal mistake of adding up part costs. Currently at £686.87 and that's not including the official Renault Cam Locking Tools. Car was a bargain! Oops ?

[dome]

Yeah I've not counted how much I'm into the Kangoo for, probably a good thing. I do love it though ?

[Split_Pin]

3 hours ago, SiC said:

Made the fatal mistake of adding up part costs. Currently at £686.87 and that's not including the official Renault Cam Locking Tools. Car was a bargain! Oops ?

You broke the first rule of Clio ownership!

At least it will reward you once sorted, that induction noise is heavenly!

[SiC]

1 hour ago, Split_Pin said:

You broke the first rule of Clio ownership!

At least it will reward you once sorted, that induction noise is heavenly!

The second is buying the cheapest example you can will be the most expensive. ?

[SiC]

Carried on with this tonight now I know the belts are coming off and parts on their way.

Removed the upper manifold.


This plug lead was crushed. FFS


Plugs look alright


Apart from this one?


Jammed a screwdriver into the flywheel to lock the crank. Renault approved method.


Removed the crank locking pin as you're not supposed to drive against it.

Then used my big'un. This is exactly the type of job I bought this for and why I got the biggest I could get.

Pulley fell off thankfully. Was worried this maybe a war if seized on.


Note the lack of key. This is supposed to be normal and how the pulleys float.


Noticed some surface rust here. Will need to come back with a wire brush, Vatacan and paint.


Double checked everything lined up still.


Required tightening up the pulley bolt to hand tight and then little bit of waggling for getting the pin back in. The screwdriver must have fallen out when doing it. Thankfully impacts don't cause too much movement on the pulley when working.

While I was here I took off the pulley for the water pump. Then a lot of jacking the engine up and down to get it out. Pulley needs to come off so the pump can come off.



Next up was removing the cambelt covers.


These fixings were properly stuck on. Required a bit of tool abuse to get them to crack off. Way too tight to get an impact in.


Bottom plastic cover was a right bastard to get off. Cracked a corner of the plastic cover but I don't think that'll be a problem when back on as it was only a small piece. Guess that bit is plastic as you need the flexibility to get it out.

Finally got full access to the cams. Feels like I'm looking at the reactor face of Chernobyl here.


Tensioner I think is in the right place.



Removed the dephaser cover with a 14mm Allen key that was in a cheap eBay blue box drain plug key set I had. What no-one warns you in guides that oil will come out here. Despite the engine sitting for a good few weeks now!


Dribbled right down the belts. Good job I'm going to be replacing them now!

At this point I couldn't go any further. I did try undoing the crank pulleys but they wanted to start moving. This is a good thing as it means the bottom pulley isn't seized. However it does reaffirm why I need the official Renault tool with the crank locking plate.

Possibly possible to get them undone if loosened while the crank pulley is on and the flywheel is locked with the screwdriver. Still risk everything moving about though.

With not much else to do, I took out the dephaser solenoid while I had access and sprayed liberally with degreaser. Then a good spray of GT85 to keep it moist until oil flows back through the lump.


Just had delivery notification that the water pump will arrive tomorrow. Unfortunately the crank pulley which is part of that order has been split. It was the last one they apparently had in stock, so I fear that it might not actually exist... Or that it'll be really shite quality. We will see.

Locking kit from Renault Parts Direct is coming too. So it'll give me a chance to lock up the pulleys, loosen them and practice retiming it. Once I'm happy with the old belts, then go ahead with replacing with new parts.

Still need to drain the coolant to do the water pump. Hate liquids as always end up getting them everywhere. Also terribly fearful of leaving coolant puddles and my cat walking in. So end up soaking down the garage floor as a precaution but making it unusable until it dries.

[dome]

Ah, memories! Good effort. You're better at taking pics than me too so hopefully this will help others down the line. 

 

[paulplom]

Top graft here. Way above my level. Very interesting. 

I've only ever done one cam belt. I did one on my 1.4 metro convertible about six years ago. Piece of piss compared to yours.

[SiC]

Oh for fecks sake. Knew this would happen when it didn't go out with the order. It'll delay putting the car back together now as wherever I get a replacement, it'll take time to come.

[SiC]

2 hours ago, paulplom said:

Top graft here. Way above my level. Very interesting. 

I've only ever done one cam belt. I did one on my 1.4 metro convertible about six years ago. Piece of piss compared to yours.

I'm probably going well above my capability level now ?

Needs must though! Also my first belt job. 

[Split_Pin]

Your first belt job being on a Clio 172 is a bit like me choosing The Prodigy as my first ever music concert when I was 18.

[SiC]

Certainly hefty lumps of steel these Renault tools. Should be for what they cost!


The remaining bits of the mister auto order also came today. I don't need the pulley bolt anymore and the air filter is completely wrong shape. Let's hope the water pump is a bit better!

Local car parts shop reckon they can get a pulley in for tomorrow and it's "only" 40 quid. I better take the old one with me as I don't want to guess my chances on it being the same. I'm wondering if it will be a Mégane/Clio3/Laguna job.

[SiC]

Might tackle the water pump tonight. Dreading it. 

What are the chances of all the bolts coming out without rounding off or snapping? ?

[Split_Pin]

Sending thoughts and prayers.

[dome]

1 hour ago, SiC said:

Might tackle the water pump tonight. Dreading it. 

What are the chances of all the bolts coming out without rounding off or snapping? ?

Clean the heads and make sure your sockets in good shape!

My first one was fine, on the Kangoo I rounded two bolts though. The water pump had been on there a while in my defense.

[dome]

Scraping the old sealant off the block was an arse of a job on the 182, not so bad on the kangoo with more clearance and no alternator in the way.

 

[SiC]

(Spoiler alert)


Literally on my back doing that right now. I'm not finding that too difficult with the engine dropped to the bottom.

[SiC]

So last night I cracked on with the water pump. Not something I particularly enjoy doing on any car. I hate dealing with liquids on a car, the water pump bolts invariably round or snap off and they can end up leaking.

First order of business was draining the system. As the bumper was off I went through the side underneath the headlight. I'm point to the pipe here:


I replaced the bottom clip while I was at it. A) because these are horrible to undo when they're in a tight place (even with the proper tool), it was pretty crusty looking. I can't remember the exact size but it was a spare I had from doing the radiators on the Boxster. So it's an official Porsche clip on my Renault.


Water pump is here


I was being super careful with the bolts trying my best not to damage them. Each one I was both pushing the ratchet hard into the fixing to reduce the risk of slippage and turning the ratchet.

This miraculously meant all the bolts came out without a fight.


Engine dropped to bottom allowed the pump to easily be removed.


Something was stuck around the pump rotor. I think it's rubber sealant that someone used to seal the gasket on. No doubt why you're not supposed to use it on it. Also means this pump is not original and it's been changed at least once in the cars life.


Next job was removing the gasket. This went really easy with a proper gasket scraper. Cleaned up best as I could and used some really fine sandpaper to gently clean off the face.


Bolts removed were pretty filthy and crusty.


Cleaned up well with a bit of degreaser and a wire brush


Gasket on with a bolt through to stop it falling off when marrying up the surfaces.



Then pump in and bolted up. I did actually torque these properly. Usually don't bother with a lot of things like this, but given they have a habit of seizing on, I felt it made sense to do them up correctly. That way the next person won't have to fight as hard to undo them if they are partially seized.

[SiC]

Now something I need to admit I was wrong on. I was always a believer that the genuine Renault timing tools was bit of a farce. Really expensive (even for OEM timing tools) and it's only needs to be a bit of laser/water cut steel in the right size with a cut down bolt for the TDC pin.

However I didn't have the cam pulley locking plate. You can buy it aftermarket but I decided if I got genuine, I should be able to easily flog the tools on again later. So they arrived today.

They really are substantial pieces of kit in comparison. Way heavier and machined from much harder steel. I guess tool steel.


Last night I changed over from the Laser tools to Renault. The Laser crank pin fitted in easily like this with barely any movement of the crank.


However the Renault pin would not fit with the crank in the same place!


When you eyeball them side by side they look identical size.


I know you risk getting the crank in the wrong place and putting the pin into the wrong part. Like this:


According to the service manual, you can verify its in the right place by looking at the keyway on the end of the crank. It should be in the middle of the two casting webs on the cover. Which it is on mine.


After a lot of fighting, including going way past the original markings and trying to find the correct place again, I managed to get it in. Ended up quite a battle and I was worried I'd not find it. Especially as the pulley and belt was off at this point. I resorted to making small movements on the flywheel with a screwdriver and rechecking. The Laser pin actually came in handy here as it allowed me to lock it when close, then small adjustments until I could get the Renault pin in.


So you probably can time up your engine just fine with the Laser tool. However you won't be getting it anywhere near as close compared to the much tighter tolerances of the Renault tool. I don't think you'll do any damage with the Laser tool but if you're after spot on performance then you need the Renault tool. Especially as these are both sensitive to timing but also not that quick nowadays, so useful to get all the performance you can.

I'm looking forward to getting this all done and giving it a drive. I'm intrigued to see how much quicker (or potentially not!) it is and if that idle has smoothened off.

[SiC]

Forgot to mention that there is a bit of movement in the dephaser when the cams were locked. Going from the workshop manual, I don't think there should be any? If so, replacing it was a good idea.


Cambelt bits arrived today.


Just need to go checkout this crank pulley next and hope it's the right one. If not it'll be another expensive order from Renault Parts Direct

[SiC]

Local part shop handed me an idler pulley. So only one thing left for it...

HRRRRRRNG


Fuck me has this job escalated and cost a small fortune.

Weighed up all the different options. Well the only one left is a second hand one. Given I've spent £700 so far (excluding tools), what is it to spend another £162? Especially as they seem prone to failing, I don't want to be doing this again anytime soon.

Car better bloody appreciate it. Probably decide to slip it's clutch next or have a gear drop out. ?

No car work tonight as there are only so many days that I can do a full-time job from 10am to 7pm and then under a car till 12:30am. Also need to be up early to get my wife's car into the local garage for a service. Which means more car related expenses ?

[Tenmil Socket]

I’ve been tempted by one of these for a couple of years but this thread is helping to deter me ?

Well done so far ??

[Split_Pin]

This is exactly why you never let a 'normal' garage touch your 1*2 because they don't have even a clue about any of the stuff that you have clearly done your homework on. Unless it's an Astra timing belt, most garages are clueless.

Looks like you have been nothing short of meticulous on this, I'm certain it will pull like a train when you go for your first drive.

[SiC]

Looks like you have been nothing short of meticulous on this, I'm certain it will pull like a train when you go for your first drive and then have the clutch fail.

FTFY.

They're really not that difficult or complex cars to work on to be honest. It's basically a 2l Laguna II squashed into a smaller package.

Remember these F4R engines have been around for donkeys years now and so have floating cams (including other brands). However they are getting to the point where everything is starting to fail on them. You have to remember these were cheap cars back in the day.

[Split_Pin]

At least there's no slave cylinder to worry about

[Jenson Velcro]

Thanks for the detailed write up of the cam belt change. I’m currently away on holiday and vicariously enjoying  the work without having to lie on a hard concrete floor, getting dirt in my eye or rapage of my wallet. Good job.

[purplebargeken]

Most excellent work mate.

[SiC]

Crank pulley arrived yesterday. No way is it worth £163. But needs must and these currently are hens teeth to get hold of.



First off last night I got on with assembling the cam pulley locking tool. This comes as a main set and then an adapter piece that you need to fit for these F4R with a dephaser.


Then putting it on the car and getting the pulleys undone. The inlet (dephaser) pulley came undone really easy. Exhaust was a right bitch. Not only the Aircon pipes got in the way, this was really stuck. I had to uber tighten the cam locking plate as it kept coming undone and made the pulleys move. No ideal when you're putting a crap load of force onto a pulley that is attached to the valves. I also removed the cam locking tool as I really didn't want to damage the end of the cam when doing this. A screwdriver wedged into the locking arms while pushing against the dephaser helped here. I was replacing the dephaser anyway so didn't care if I damaged it.


Moving the jack to the front helped here as it naturally moved the block forwards and gave a bit more access away from the Aircon pipes.


Eventually I got it undone.


Then removed the seals. The exhaust side again was a pain to remove the seal. I'll shamefully admit I did scratch the cam when doing this. It's super soft material and pushing the backside of the seal puller was enough.


The seals went in easy enough. I did push the exhaust seal back a bit further so it rode on an area away from the scratch I put in.


I then put the exhaust pulley and the new inlet pulley back on.

On Thursday I took my wife's car into my local garage for a service. I was chatting to the guys there that I know well and talking about this job. He said the first floating cam job he did was in the early 2000 on a Laguna. Used tip-ex being none the wiser, turned over by hand and the first start went ... Brrr Ting and locked solid! He phoned up his mate up who worked at Renault dealer and he replied "Did you use the proper locking tools?" "No" "You fucked it then!". Head off and a pair of bent valves. He was very surprised that this would have been done like that as everyone who he knows has done it, has killed a F4R/F4P/K4M. If it did then it was only a matter of time as the belt naturally stretched to put it far enough to smash bits.

Anyway I mentioned that the bottom sprocket appeared stuck on mine. He said that if it was him, if it wasn't freely movable by hand then he'd strongly recommend getting it loose. So I set away with some WD40 equivalent sprayed in and then a rubber mallet with a wooden block.


After a bit of bashing it started moving. Then bashing it back and forth got it loose enough to pull off. Gave the inside surface a good clean with degreaser.


Now this is how freely movable it is.


Then I removed all the final pulleys. These were pretty stuck as well and required the use of a breaker bar.

Now the Renault kit comes with a single bolt and spacer. I couldn't find anything either in the instructions or online guides on where it's supposed to go.

The pulleys that were new are on the left in this picture. Old ones are on the right. Ribbed pulley is the bottom one. The old ones are from a Dayco kit.


The new ribbed pulley has a lot thicker bearing. So much so that the shouldered spacer that came off wouldn't fit. I guessed that this was the one for the new bolt. Putting them against the one that came off the car, showed they'd be the same distance.


With it all on the car, the two pulleys were parallel and level. The block is slightly inset on the bottom, so this is why I think it needed the extra distance compared to the too one. So I think it's right.



Then putting the belt on. I first tried it with all the pulleys on and the tensioner loose. However I just couldn't get it on. Ended up instead taking off the tensioner pulley, belt on and then putting on the tensioner pulley. This was easier except the fact there is a pin out the back you need to line up on the block. I did this by turning the 6mm Allen head tensioner while pushing the tensioner. This eventually located it in place.

You can see the pin out the back on this.


I forgot to take a picture but the tensioner then needs tensioning. This is done by moving the arm with a 6mm Allen key until a cut out lines up with an arrow on the front.

Belts are now on and tensioned up. Cam locking tool is still in at this point.


Workshop manual then calls to turn the freely loose cams around 6 times by turning the exhaust pulley with a special tool. I didn't have the special tool so I used my angle grinder key which worked fine. The bolts on the cams did keep tightening up, so I had to keep backing them off when they did. Probably ended up turning it over a good 8 or so times to make sure all was grand.

Now I need to get everything tightened up, remove the locking tools and turn over by hand again. Hopefully then it'll still be all in the right place. If not, I'll need to undo the pulley nuts and redo the timing. I think the tensioner may need adjusting too if it's out after turning? Not sure, but I imagine I'll find out when I do the next bit.

[Split_Pin]

Brilliant details for anyone doing this job and showing how to get yourself out of the various muddles that crop up along the way.

Good man!