Berlingo 1.9d 2005 poor fuel economy

[drivewaymyway]

Hiya al... calling Citroen DW8B experts. Lucas fuel pump, .

  The van has poor fuel economy to ay the least, the vans I've had before have always done around 250 miles to half a tank but the one I'm driving at the moment can go from 120 to 250 miles to half a tank, it is not consistent. It is also a smoky starter, it likes to pump out the juice but it is a cloud and not a smoke screen, it is also on the first start up, I have fitted Beru glow plugs, glow plug relay and all the other gubbins like filters etc..

  There is an electrical gremlin that randomly triggers the central locking when driving which makes me jump and makes me take the keys with me every time I get out. The other think I noticed with this gremlin is that sometimes the dash lights go very bright and the service counter resets itself..

 

 I know nothing about electronics, I was wondering if changing the fuel ecu for a used one already set up would be a straight swap as a new one would need setting up, or are the ecu's all programmed together ? so therefore even a second hand one would need programming..

 

 Has anyone else experienced dodgy electrics I a Citroen ?  

[twosmoke300]

I’d be checking pump timing , air filter and associated pipe work and the egr venturi flap on the inlet manifold first .

[Jimbob McGregor]

The central locking - in the car, ignition on (poss engine running) then press and hold the big locking button on the middle of the dash until you get a beep. That switches off the auto-locking feature that’s alarming you.

[Jimbob McGregor]

The EGR unit/flap thing mentioned by twosmoke can be a pain. It can often throw fault codes. You could check the vacuum pipes are intact and functioning and vacuum solenoid valve for function too as these could cause chaos.

 

As for fuel economy, these aren’t that great. A 2.0 HDI with 90bhp can achieve 48mpg with a decent mix of driving, whereas the DW8 will be around 38-40 and be rather sedate with it!

[wuvvum]

DW8 has never been my favourite engine.  The pissing around PSA had to do to get an indirect injection engine through Euro emissions means that it's rather inefficient and lifeless compared to an XUD. 

 

My DW8 Berlingo didn't have any of the issues you mention, but then it was a poverty spec model so didn't have central locking anyway.

[artdjones]

Central locking could be the BSI,which is the body computer/fusebox behind the dash.Also for the smoking issue check the timing solenoid on the pump,and the wiring between the lift sensor on the no.2 injector and the engine ECU.No.2 injector is counted from the flywheel end of the engine.Check these if the things Two smoke mentioned don't work, because they're the things I'd look at first, especially the egr system.

[HMC]

My usual parts darts effort is to disconnect the maf and see if it resolves things. If so get a new maf.

[rainagain]

Two things I did with my DW8 to try and improve economy were to blank the egr with a penny and smash out the inside of the cat. They made it a bit better but as mentioned they’re not that great. I did hear that the pump timing on them is quite retarded to reduce NOx gases compared to a XUD but I never got round to experimenting with mine.

[drivewaymyway]

Thanks for replying.. You have prompted my memory..

 

 The EGR is blanked off at the exhaust side with a round piece of tin I cut out and wedged in and I have blocked off the air tube to the EGR and cut and blanked off the vuc hose from the vac pump.. Proper job, there does still seem to be some pressure at the EGR for some reason. The tubes are the correct way round. 

 

 I have disconnected the MAF, made no difference.

 

 I replaced the cam belt and water pump but it was a smoker before. I looked at timing and nothing is adjustable, just a slot cut in the crank pulley making it floating. I don't understand how this works to keep the timing right, I used a spacer in the pulley as needed when doing the belt but the belt teeth didn't line up with anything, cam pulley locked, fuel pump locked and long pin in the Flywheel, the only movement is the crank pulley.. I'm confused...

 

 Central locking isn't the big button thing, the central locking locks and unlocks randomly.. The auto lock locks above 5mph, the problem I have is it happens at any speed, sometimes several times a day or not for a couple of weeks.. just random...

 

Air filter new..

 

I've been told the EGR will not throw error codes as on the DW8 non turbo the EGR system was an after thought and not properly electronically connected to the ECU so runs as a stand alone exhaust diverter. The wires going to the EGR are for a solenoid not any kind of sensor..

 

Central locking could be the BSI,which is the body computer/fusebox behind the dash.Also for the smoking issue check the timing solenoid on the pump,and the wiring between the lift sensor on the no.2 injector and the engine ECU.No.2 injector is counted from the flywheel end of the engine.Check these if the things Two smoke mentioned don't work, because they're the things I'd look at first, especially the egr system.

Does the BSI need to be programmed to the ECU ? I have been out in the Snow for a look and I can't see a wire coming off N2 injector. What is the timing solenoid ? Where is that ? how do I check it ?

 

 I have fitted a new cold start valve, that wax thing with a cable attached.. The economy seems much worse in cold weather. The van doesgo much better than the others I have had, I always set the throttle cable long so full throttle is about 3/4 of pump, these DW8 are gutless over 3500 and anything over half throttle is a waste of fuel..

 

I have posted on the Berlingo Owners Forum but in a year there has been 4 replies..

[rainagain]

Iirc you can adjust the timing by loosening the pulley on the pump. There’s a hole there to set the pump to standard timing. It’s been a while though so I might be talking rubbish.

[rainagain]

I was right here’s a pic showing the pulley removed.

[artdjones]

Thanks for replying.. You have prompted my memory..

 

 The EGR is blanked off at the exhaust side with a round piece of tin I cut out and wedged in and I have blocked off the air tube to the EGR and cut and blanked off the vuc hose from the vac pump.. Proper job, there does still seem to be some pressure at the EGR for some reason. The tubes are the correct way round. 

 

 I have disconnected the MAF, made no difference.

 

 I replaced the cam belt and water pump but it was a smoker before. I looked at timing and nothing is adjustable, just a slot cut in the crank pulley making it floating. I don't understand how this works to keep the timing right, I used a spacer in the pulley as needed when doing the belt but the belt teeth didn't line up with anything, cam pulley locked, fuel pump locked and long pin in the Flywheel, the only movement is the crank pulley.. I'm confused...

 

 Central locking isn't the big button thing, the central locking locks and unlocks randomly.. The auto lock locks above 5mph, the problem I have is it happens at any speed, sometimes several times a day or not for a couple of weeks.. just random...

 

Air filter new..

 

I've been told the EGR will not throw error codes as on the DW8 non turbo the EGR system was an after thought and not properly electronically connected to the ECU so runs as a stand alone exhaust diverter. The wires going to the EGR are for a solenoid not any kind of sensor..

 

 

Does the BSI need to be programmed to the ECU ? I have been out in the Snow for a look and I can't see a wire coming off N2 injector. What is the timing solenoid ? Where is that ? how do I check it ?

 

 I have fitted a new cold start valve, that wax thing with a cable attached.. The economy seems much worse in cold weather. The van doesgo much better than the others I have had, I always set the throttle cable long so full throttle is about 3/4 of pump, these DW8 are gutless over 3500 and anything over half throttle is a waste of fuel..

 

I have posted on the Berlingo Owners Forum but in a year there has been 4 replies..

I would get hold of a copy of the instructions for timing the engine first and check that.

 

The timing solenoid is the projection with a rubber cover cable tied on on the pump below.

[bub2006]

I used to own a dw8 engined c15 van. I couldn't get close to 250 miles per half tank. Unsure if the tank would be smaller or not though. The Berlingo will never be an aerodynamic vehicle either. What size is the tank on the Berlingo? Also what is your main driving type of area? I blanked off the egr and I rarely bettered 40mpg from mine. In town it was a bit lower again.

[drivewaymyway]

Berlingo tank is about 50 / 60litres..  Driving is varied some short journeys, A roads, Motorways etc.. all types, not many towns and no city driving. I have had Berlingo 1.9D before and always got 250 for the first half of the tank unless I drove like a total cock.

  I am having a problem with smoke on start up too which is Diesel not oil.

[bub2006]

Leaking injector maybe an issue. Pull dipstick and sniff oil for diesel smell.

[tommotech]

If the obvious things have been checked and double checked it may be time to go a little deeper. Compression test and valve clearances are often overlooked.

[drivewaymyway]

I didn't bother with Valves as the van I had before this one I did 184k miles in and the valves were still within tolerances although very close. This newer van has only just ticked over 70k miles

 

 The issue just to recap, Diesel smoke on startup but only from cold, if it's been started there isn't any smoke. Goes well but poor fuel economy.

 

 Electric issues; central locking triggers randomly, dash light go very bright and the trip / service countdown reset themselves.

 

 How do I test for leakey injector ? I don't mind taking it to a Diesel specialist but because it's a cold start issue they can't do anything until next day.. How much should an injector test cost ?

[Dave_Q]

You can get some clue by doing a pikey leak off test yourself.

 

This is one I did on my wife's Alfa, the test setup is 4 x travel bottles from Wilkos hot glued to a piece of scrap wood and some aquarium tubing.

 

 

You run the leak off pipes into the bottles and run the engine for a bit. The HBOL or similar may have a leak off rate (x cc in y min for example) but basically if one is stuck open it will leak off significantly less than the others.

 

In that picture they were all more or less the same after 2-3 min on idle so I concluded they were probably fine.

[Dave_Q]

Here is a thread with some possibly relevant values for leakage: http://www.bba-reman.com/forums/topic95757.aspx

[drivewaymyway]

 This for common rail 1.9d is lift pump, single injector feed type, is the test going to be the same ?

[Dave_Q]

Yes you can use it on a DW8, if you look at your injectors they have a steel supply pipe and a thinner flexible leak off pipe, remove the flexible pipes and connect the 4 lots of pipe there.

 

There will be videos on YouTube of how its done, possibly not using scrap wood and aquarium tube but its the same principle.

 

If you have an injector that leaks back lots it may not be opening properly, if you have one or more that leak back less than the others they may be stuck open.

[dieselassist]

what colour is the smoke it likes to pump out?

...white smoke out the exhaust is 'unburnt diesel' - usually points to a timing issue; black smoke is overfueling usually...

 

Whats the cat like? when was it last replaced My brother had a 206 1.9d (pre hdi) 'carvan' years ago -failed the smoke test at the DOE test; turned out to be a clagged up cat; he bought a replacement one from a petrol 406 at the scrapyard n had the local eastern European garage weld that in n retest it n it passed...

[drivewaymyway]

^{what colour is the smoke it likes to pump out?}

...white smoke out the exhaust is 'unburnt diesel' - usually points to a timing issue; black smoke is overfueling usually...

 

Whats the cat like? when was it last replaced My brother had a 206 1.9d (pre hdi) 'carvan' years ago -failed the smoke test at the DOE test; turned out to be a clagged up cat; he bought a replacement one from a petrol 406 at the scrapyard n had the local eastern European garage weld that in n retest it n it passed...

 

The smoke on start up is Diesel, it stinks.. The timing on my van is the non adjustable type, the pulleys on the Cam and Fuel pump are fixed position, the earlier ones have an adjustable cam pulley. The Crank pulley on my van is 'Floating' which is supposed to allow the cam belt be fitted, I don't understand it though..

[tommotech]

If it’s DW8B, with ECU timing control I’d say the timing control valve is defective. When you switch the ignition on this should ‘rattle’ for three to four seconds, that’s when it performs its diagnostic check. If it’s not audible it needs replacing.

 

Otherwise get a look at the injection parameters on a reader.

[twosmoke300]

Can you not rotate the pump itself to adjust the timing ? Undo the three mounting bolts/ nuts and turn it like a dizzy ?

Advance it so it sounds like a 2.5 Di transit then back it off a bit .

[twosmoke300]

I believe that procedure is the exact wording from the workshop manual .

[tommotech]

Can you not rotate the pump itself to adjust the timing ? Undo the three mounting bolts/ nuts and turn it like a dizzy ?

Advance it so it sounds like a 2.5 Di transit then back it off a bit .

If it’s timing controlled, by ECU, the answer is no as this has no effect.

[rainagain]

Could the smoke at start up not just be a duff glow plug? My dw8 would start on three glow plugs with a bit of smoke. Annoyingly enough it would start so well on three I wouldn’t notice till a second one failed then it wouldn’t start. Just grab an ohm meter, disconnect the wiring and check each one in turn, you’re looking for a resistance of about a couple of ohms or less if I remember correctly from the plug to the block.

[twosmoke300]

Ahh yes I remember that timing set up now . Last gasp of trying to make the old rotary pump be clean

[drivewaymyway]

Could the smoke at start up not just be a duff glow plug? My dw8 would start on three glow plugs with a bit of smoke. Annoyingly enough it would start so well on three I wouldn’t notice till a second one failed then it wouldn’t start. Just grab an ohm meter, disconnect the wiring and check each one in turn, you’re looking for a resistance of about a couple of ohms or less if I remember correctly from the plug to the block.

The first thing I did was to replace the GP with genuine Beru ones, each was tested at 1.1Ohms when I fitted them. I have also replaced the GP relay which funnily enough improved the starting, no smoke at all for about 10 starts but now as bad as it was before..