invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[Eyersey1234]

Was the one I papped yesterday a private one or a DHSS one when it was new? 

[AdgeCutler]

Hello folks and thank you for allowing into the fold. Around 38 years ago or there abouts I found myself interested in Invacars, I used to see a type 70 down the road from my grandmothers house. Anyhow, about ten years ago I started to think I should try to track one down but to no avail, I did get sorely tempted by a mark 12 in Ireland about 18 months ago but that time around I came to my senses. I'm just coming to the end of a project and started to re-invigorate my search, this time using the interweb, not just word of mouth and have found myself here and also on FaceAches Microcar world.   Yesterday I ended up collecting a Mk12 car that if I had any sense I would have walked away from. Basically I have a chassis plate, two seized engines and gearboxes, three damaged fibreglass panels, a small assortment of detritus and the rest can only be classed as patterns  to work from. There are a few little things I'm a bit worried about but most is quite simple to replicate given time and hopefully advice from the likes of the members of such forums as this.

As a first question if I may, does anybody know where I might start a search for wheels for this vehicle and if they were used on other applications?

[Mrs6C]

2 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Hello folks and thank you for allowing into the fold.

Welcome @AdgeCutler! You will find lots of help and support for Invacars here; there are several owners of Model 70s and at least one Mk12 on the forum.

Also, as a new member, would you like to pop up a post in our 'Members introduction' thread, here?

BTW, if you post something and it desn't appear for a while, don't worry! New members have their first several posts approved by a Moderator, so you'll see them appear when a Moderator has seen them in the queue and pressed the button!

[Eyersey1234]

3 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Hello folks and thank you for allowing into the fold. Around 38 years ago or there abouts I found myself interested in Invacars, I used to see a type 70 down the road from my grandmothers house. Anyhow, about ten years ago I started to think I should try to track one down but to no avail, I did get sorely tempted by a mark 12 in Ireland about 18 months ago but that time around I came to my senses. I'm just coming to the end of a project and started to re-invigorate my search, this time using the interweb, not just word of mouth and have found myself here and also on FaceAches Microcar world.   Yesterday I ended up collecting a Mk12 car that if I had any sense I would have walked away from. Basically I have a chassis plate, two seized engines and gearboxes, three damaged fibreglass panels, a small assortment of detritus and the rest can only be classed as patterns  to work from. There are a few little things I'm a bit worried about but most is quite simple to replicate given time and hopefully advice from the likes of the members of such forums as this.

As a first question if I may, does anybody know where I might start a search for wheels for this vehicle and if they were used on other applications?

Welcome to the forum. 

[LightBulbFun]

7 hours ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Was the one I papped yesterday a private one or a DHSS one when it was new? 

twas a Ministry machine  all Model 70's on the road as of time of writing are Ex Ministry machines

(which is all the more amusing when someone says "I thought they where all destroyed or banned" and someone responds "Ministry ones where but a few where privately owned" like to say that the Model 70 they saw must be a private example!) 

very few Private Model 70's existed in the first place and as such very few survive today

RRE20L, JNJ135L, NPN924P, and REV451R are the only private Model 70's I know to still survive (and RRE20L only survives by the skin of its fibreglass gel-coat) 

sadly none of those are on the road as of writing

JNJ548N is also a private example, that may survive but its not one iv been able to verify, however it was last taxed in 2008 and had a keeper change in 2009 and shows no scrapped marker so I would like to think it survives somewhere as Id like to think by 2008-2009 they would have been becoming more notable,  for example I know in 2008 the first Ministry Model 70 hit the road properly under its original registration etc without any ringing shenanigans (MHJ22P)

 but I dont know for sure if it survives, I sadly dont even have a picture of it, and the only picture I know exists of it is from the 1990s IIRC

[LightBulbFun]

4 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Hello folks and thank you for allowing into the fold. Around 38 years ago or there abouts I found myself interested in Invacars, I used to see a type 70 down the road from my grandmothers house. Anyhow, about ten years ago I started to think I should try to track one down but to no avail, I did get sorely tempted by a mark 12 in Ireland about 18 months ago but that time around I came to my senses. I'm just coming to the end of a project and started to re-invigorate my search, this time using the interweb, not just word of mouth and have found myself here and also on FaceAches Microcar world.   Yesterday I ended up collecting a Mk12 car that if I had any sense I would have walked away from. Basically I have a chassis plate, two seized engines and gearboxes, three damaged fibreglass panels, a small assortment of detritus and the rest can only be classed as patterns  to work from. There are a few little things I'm a bit worried about but most is quite simple to replicate given time and hopefully advice from the likes of the members of such forums as this.

As a first question if I may, does anybody know where I might start a search for wheels for this vehicle and if they were used on other applications?

Hello! welcome aboard

nice to have another fellow Invacar owner on the forum

do you mind if I ask where/who you got this Mk12 from? it sounds a lot like the one Big Al had for sale recently (which he has marked as sold)

but it looked like it was in a bit better condition then you described, given he was showing a complete car! 

 

I do wonder what happened to that Invacar Mk12 ONO454D in NI, last I heard it was sold to some AC Racers to use as a pit lane car which is a little worrisome as I would hate to see it hacked about and modified

as it was/hopefully still is one of the few Mk12's still in decent shape!

likewise wonder what happened to that Invacar Mk12 that was for sale in South Africa of all places!

 

anyways pondering of where various Mk12's have ended up aside

 

the wheels your looking for are Dunlop LP 591 wheels

I sadly do not know if these where used outside of the DHSS however

in a pinch Mini Dunlop LP 1161 wheels should work as they have the same PCD and offset (you find them easier by omitting the LP and searching simply for Dunlop 1161 or by their British leyland part number 21A2744)

although I have personally never seen a Mk12 fitted with a set of 10 inch wheels, I know the Model 70 of course transitioned from Dunlop LP 591 wheels to 1161 wheels, and I know at least one AC Acedes Mk14 or Mk14A that has been fitted with them as well

so id like to think they would fit, but they are slightly wider (145R10 vs 125R12 or 5.20-10 vs 4.40-12 in old money) so keep that in mind

and it is critical you specifically get 591 or 1161 wheels as if you get something with the wrong offset, your front wheel will suddenly be out of the centre line of the car and gawd knows what that would do to the handling LOL

[Eyersey1234]

2 hours ago, LightBulbFun said:

twas a Ministry machine  all Model 70's on the road as of time of writing are Ex Ministry machines

(which is all the more amusing when someone says "I thought they where all destroyed or banned" and someone responds "Ministry ones where but a few where privately owned" like to say that the Model 70 they saw must be a private example!) 

very few Private Model 70's existed in the first place and as such very few survive today

RRE20L, JNJ135L, NPN924P, and REV451R are the only private Model 70's I know to still survive (and RRE20L only survives by the skin of its fibreglass gel-coat) 

sadly none of those are on the road as of writing

JNJ548N is also a private example, that may survive but its not one iv been able to verify, however it was last taxed in 2008 and had a keeper change in 2009 and shows no scrapped marker so I would like to think it survives somewhere as Id like to think by 2008-2009 they would have been becoming more notable, I know in 2008 the first Ministry Model 70 hit the road properly under its original registration without any ringing shenanigans for example (MHJ22P)

 but I dont know for sure if it survives, I sadly dont even have a picture of it, and the only picture I know exists of it is from the 1990s IIRC

Funnily enough one of the comments on my Faceache page yesterday was I thought they were banned. Very satisfying to set the record straight. 

[LightBulbFun]

4 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Funnily enough one of the comments on my Faceache page yesterday was I thought they were banned. Very satisfying to set the record straight. 

indeed it is  

do you have a link to your facebook page/the post you made? I like to monitor the comments of Invacar related posts I find on social media etc  

(or is it a closed group etc?)

[Eyersey1234]

13 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

indeed it is  

do you have a link to your facebook page/the post you made? I like to monitor the comments of Invacar related posts I find on social media etc  

(or is it a closed group etc?)

No its not a closed group I'll see if I can post a link to it 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10208029877820042&id=1691670002

 

That should work 

[LightBulbFun]

6 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

No its not a closed group I'll see if I can post a link to it 

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10208029877820042&id=1691670002

 

That should work 

Link is broken sadly, both in the orignial mobile from you sent it in

and same for when I remove the "m." from the URL to switch it to the desktop site

 

[AdgeCutler]

Thanks for the welcome folks, it is indeed the one that was recently listed for sale by a chap named Alan. He has said he will contact me when he finds a wheel or two but I'm uncertain that will happen, also the paperwork from the ICR has disappeared. I lost a nights sleep literally while reading this thread after having found it last week, it was not a pleasant day at work that followed, tree felling while sleep deprived is not recommended! Anyhow, I think I have mainly light bulb fun to thank for that, your research and perseverance are commendable and I'm pleased your 70 has found you, somebody that is clearly very passionate about the marque.  I think it is fair to say my car is near complete but I also feel it is fair to say that much of it is only suitable as being used as a pattern, I can only hope that parts such as the master and slave cylinders etc., etc. are in a condition where life can be breathed into them once more. 

[Eyersey1234]

Just now, LightBulbFun said:

Link is broken sadly, both in the orignial mobile from you sent it in

and also when I remove the "m." from the URL to switch it to the desktop sites

 

Wonder if it's because my settings are set to friends, sorry didn't think of that before posting it 

[Eyersey1234]

3 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Link is broken sadly, both in the orignial mobile from you sent it in

and also when I remove the "m." from the URL to switch it to the desktop sites

 

I've changed the settings for that post, let's try again

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10208029877820042&id=1691670002

[Eyersey1234]

Let me know if that has worked or not please 

[somewhatfoolish]

3 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Let me know if that has worked or not please 

I can see it now.

[Six-cylinder]

It works for me.

[LightBulbFun]

13 minutes ago, Eyersey1234 said:

Let me know if that has worked or not please 

Yerp works for me now  

[AdgeCutler]

Here is a quick video I took of the Invacar this morning:

 

[LightBulbFun]

2 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Here is a quick video I took of the Invacar this morning:

 

Very cool!

nice to have a walk around of an Invacar Mk12  

 

apart from this one thread there really is not much out there on these Villers machines, so its nice to see a video of one being added online  

 

apart from the rotten backbone tube in the engine bay the, how does your outriggers look like? It was hard to tell, but it actually looks like they all might be there?

 which for a Mk12 is actually quite good, normally the backbone tube itself survives while all the outriggers drop off like teeth!

 

but I cant help but notice the lack of a door, did you get one with the car? since one was pictured in the advert id hope it was included

otherwise id be rather unhappy with Mr Big Al for false advertisement given Invacar Mk12 Doors do not exactly grow on trees!

(although maybe if you take one of the Outriggers and stick it under your pillow the Invacar Fairy will exchange it for a door? LOL)

 

[AdgeCutler]

I've not spent much more time under there than that the camera briefly showed, I did however note that the outriggers may be re-usable? I do have the remnants of a door but it is only of any use as a pattern. Free time is quite scarce for me but between other things I do make time to restore interesting and unusual relics, I should be able to spend next Saturday tearing this little car to pieces and will endeavour to make videos if it appears there is interest in the subject. I usually take lots of pictures anyhow, for my own reference. 

I used to belong to a stationary engine forum which I invested a huge amount of  time into the creation of threads for, much literature and in depth restorations being logged and shared. Sadly the gentleman that funded that forum died and nobody took on the task of running it and all the work of the many members was lost. Since then I haven't shared much other than my FarceBook posts with friends.

 

[Eyersey1234]

33 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

Very cool!

nice to have a walk around of an Invacar Mk12  

 

apart from this one thread there really is not much out there on these Villers machines, so its nice to see a video of one being added online  

 

apart from the rotten backbone tube in the engine bay the, how does your outriggers look like? It was hard to tell, but it actually looks like they all might be there?

 which for a Mk12 is actually quite good, normally the backbone tube itself survives while all the outriggers drop off like teeth!

 

but I cant help but notice the lack of a door, did you get one with the car? since one was pictured in the advert id hope it was included

otherwise id be rather unhappy with Mr Big Al for false advertisement given Invacar Mk12 Doors do not exactly grow on trees!

(although maybe if you take one of the Outriggers and stick it under your pillow the Invacar Fairy will exchange it for a door? LOL)

 

It would probably be expensive to get a door made due to there not being much demand 

[Zelandeth]

Sadly the condition doesn't really surprise me - a large portion of the spares I got from the same seller with KPL were fit only for the bin, and the original car was in a lot worse state than originally described to me - the "bit of rust in the floor panel" turned out to be the entire panel basically being pulled out by hand and several repairs needed to the rails under it.  Plus far more structural bits of the body than I was aware of turned out to be missing, making the rebuild a far more challenging project.  Admittedly I did see the car in person before buying it though, so by that point did know what I was getting into.

I get the impression that the condition of the car and parts may well be accurate in his memory of them when they arrived - ten plus years ago. 

I know he's struggled a lot with health problems in recent years which has probably skewed how long he thinks things have been sitting, and by that point I was just glad to have a project to get stuck into, even if it turned out I'd probably paid over the odds for it.  In my case it didn't work out too badly in the end as KPL wound up being an ideal donor for getting TPA back on the road.

 

[Mrs6C]

I suppose I should 'fess up now and let the community know that I have taken on the ex-Egg and ex-Blank Frank Invacar Mk12C...

It has been dismantled and is in its main component parts, many of which fit in the back of a C15...

It needs a lot of work (and doesn't have a door, so I will be making one!) but thanks to the care and enthusiasm of the aforementioned, it's in the best state it could be, to take forwards.

There are a couple of loose 12" wheels with it, so if these are the right kind and it doesn't need them, I'm sure they can made available to assist another Mk12 along its road to recovery...

 

[egg]

You know what XWC doesn't compare too badly to @AdgeCutler's.

Well done Mrs Six C - the field of Invacars dreams is an appropriate spot for it.

[AdgeCutler]

34 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Sadly the condition doesn't really surprise me - a large portion of the spares I got from the same seller with KPL were fit only for the bin, and the original car was in a lot worse state than originally described to me - the "bit of rust in the floor panel" turned out to be the entire panel basically being pulled out by hand and several repairs needed to the rails under it.  Plus far more structural bits of the body than I was aware of turned out to be missing, making the rebuild a far more challenging project.  Admittedly I did see the car in person before buying it though, so by that point did know what I was getting into.

I get the impression that the condition of the car and parts may well be accurate in his memory of them when they arrived - ten plus years ago. 

I know he's struggled a lot with health problems in recent years which has probably skewed how long he thinks things have been sitting, and by that point I was just glad to have a project to get stuck into, even if it turned out I'd probably paid over the odds for it.  In my case it didn't work out too badly in the end as KPL wound up being an ideal donor for getting TPA back on the road.

 

Hmmm, a similar story although I had said I didn't want to come and view due to the current situation affecting us all, we did spend quite some time on the phone and I began to feel comfortable.

 

34 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

I suppose I should 'fess up now and let the community know that I have taken on the ex-Egg and ex-Blank Frank Invacar Mk12C...

It has been dismantled and is in its main component parts, many of which fit in the back of a C15...

It needs a lot of work (and doesn't have a door, so I will be making one!) but thanks to the care and enthusiasm of the aforementioned, it's in the best state it could be, to take forwards.

There are a couple of loose 12" wheels with it, so if these are the right kind and it doesn't need them, I'm sure they can made available to assist another Mk12 along its road to recovery...

 

I'm just working my way through the thread on this car and would like to compare notes as it were. I do have the remnants of a door if it would be of use or indeed as I intend to replicate it, perhaps this job could be x2'd? I will, I'm sure be in need of at least 2 wheels, I was supposed to get a useable set but have I think one that is OK and 5 rotten as a Medlar, quote seller: "they'll go again".

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, AdgeCutler said:

Thanks for the welcome folks, it is indeed the one that was recently listed for sale by a chap named Alan. He has said he will contact me when he finds a wheel or two but I'm uncertain that will happen, also the paperwork from the ICR has disappeared. I lost a nights sleep literally while reading this thread after having found it last week, it was not a pleasant day at work that followed, tree felling while sleep deprived is not recommended! Anyhow, I think I have mainly light bulb fun to thank for that, your research and perseverance are commendable and I'm pleased your 70 has found you, somebody that is clearly very passionate about the marque.  I think it is fair to say my car is near complete but I also feel it is fair to say that much of it is only suitable as being used as a pattern, I can only hope that parts such as the master and slave cylinders etc., etc. are in a condition where life can be breathed into them once more. 

dont worry too much about the ICR paperwork

regardless if its via a V62 or a V55/5 and V765, we should be able to get her road registered again without the need for the missing ICR paperwork  (those dating letters where done for those cars before I figured out their registration numbers anyhow!)

(But I do hope the service dockets that I know where found with this car can be found, iv been quite interested in studying those for my research for some time now!)

and I would not worry too much about the Master and slave cylinders and other brake components  etc all that is off the shelf girling parts which should hopefully still mostly still readily available 

 

1 hour ago, AdgeCutler said:

I've not spent much more time under there than that the camera briefly showed, I did however note that the outriggers may be re-usable? I do have the remnants of a door but it is only of any use as a pattern. Free time is quite scarce for me but between other things I do make time to restore interesting and unusual relics, I should be able to spend next Saturday tearing this little car to pieces and will endeavour to make videos if it appears there is interest in the subject. I usually take lots of pictures anyhow, for my own reference. 

I used to belong to a stationary engine forum which I invested a huge amount of  time into the creation of threads for, much literature and in depth restorations being logged and shared. Sadly the gentleman that funded that forum died and nobody took on the task of running it and all the work of the many members was lost. Since then I haven't shared much other than my FarceBook posts with friends.

 

Yes please I would be very interested in a detailed post on the car as you work on her if possible  

good to know on the Door front, I am curious what material is the main door body made out of, some period pieces mention that one of the changes with the Invacar Mk12D and Mk12E was the change to a Fibreglass door

(I know for a fact the Invacar Mk12-Mk12c have a steel door) but I have never been able to verify the info on the Mk12D/Mk12E Doors so id be quite interested in knowing what your one is made out of  

 

also as you strip her down and take photos for your own reference, do let me know if you come across any numbers or such stamped into the chassis itself!  

 

 

[AdgeCutler]

3 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

dont worry too much about the ICR paperwork

regardless if its via a V62 or a V55/5 and V765, we should be able to get her road registered again without the need for the missing ICR paperwork  (those dating letters where done for those cars before I figured out their registration numbers anyhow!)

(But I do hope the service dockets that I know where found with this car can be found, iv been quite interested in studying those for my research for some time now!)

and I would not worry too much about the Master and slave cylinders and other brake components  etc all that is off the shelf girling parts which should hopefully still mostly still readily available 

 

Yes please I would be very interested in a detailed post on the car as you work on her if possible  

good to know on the Door front, I am curious what material is the main door body made out of, some period pieces mention that one of the changes with the Invacar Mk12D and Mk12E was the change to a Fibreglass door

(I know for a fact the Invacar Mk12-Mk12c have a steel door) but I have never been able to verify the info on the Mk12D/Mk12E Doors so id be quite interested in knowing what your one is made out of  

 

also as you strip her down and take photos for your own reference, do let me know if you come across any numbers or such stamped into the chassis itself!  

 

 

Roger, wilco.

The door I have is comprised mainly of Iron oxide, it's a shame perhaps they never did (or at least on this car) change to Fibreglass.

Thank for the re-assurance re.  hydraulic cylinders, hope is all we have! 

I'll chase the seller about those dockets which until today I never knew of.

While you're filling me with hope, any knowledge of suitable shock absorbers?

 

[LightBulbFun]

42 minutes ago, AdgeCutler said:

Roger, wilco.

The door I have is comprised mainly of Iron oxide, it's a shame perhaps they never did (or at least on this car) change to Fibreglass.

Thank for the re-assurance re.  hydraulic cylinders, hope is all we have! 

I'll chase the seller about those dockets which until today I never knew of.

While you're filling me with hope, any knowledge of suitable shock absorbers?

 

ah thats good to know for research purposes at least!, I had a feeling they may have been steel doors still given all the other Mk12D's and Mk12E's I have seen with completely  missing doors and also the Door listed in the Mk12c-Mk12D section of the parts manual is listed for all of those Marks

(but on the flip side those could have still been missing doors due other weaknesses in the door mounting mechanism that failed over time), so its good to have it verified some more   

Yeah ill also poke Alan about those Dockets in the coming days! I know a while back he mentioned in a facebook post he was clearing out his space and got rid of a bunch of old paperwork and stuff on his burn pile, I really hope the service dockets was not in there!

 

the Front coil-over is an Armstrong 62 S0876

the Rear coil-overs are Armstrong S/62/2586

 

(as for cross-referencing a Fellow Invacar Mk12E owner says the Rear coil springs are shared with the Bond Mini car but its a bit confusing as im pretty sure the Invacar Mk12 uses coilovers not separate shocks and springs)

[Zelandeth]

1 hour ago, AdgeCutler said:

Hmmm, a similar story although I had said I didn't want to come and view due to the current situation affecting us all, we did spend quite some time on the phone and I began to feel comfortable.

 

I'm just working my way through the thread on this car and would like to compare notes as it were. I do have the remnants of a door if it would be of use or indeed as I intend to replicate it, perhaps this job could be x2'd? I will, I'm sure be in need of at least 2 wheels, I was supposed to get a useable set but have I think one that is OK and 5 rotten as a Medlar, quote seller: "they'll go again".

As LBF has said, don't lose too much sleep over clutch and brake hydraulics, they're all bits which are pretty easy to source or find alternatives for.  As far as vehicle information goes for registration purposes etc, the author of this thread can probably provide more info there than the ICR these days.

Shame there's structural rust, but the construction of these is such that it shouldn't be impossible to sort with some patience and a welder.  Just a shame they don't seem to resist for as well as the Model 70 which by and large seems to be astonishingly resistant to it.  Can only bring to mind knowledge of one truly rotten one.

[somewhatfoolish]

36 minutes ago, Zelandeth said:

Shame there's structural rust, but the construction of these is such that it shouldn't be impossible to sort with some patience and a welder.  Just a shame they don't seem to resist for as well as the Model 70 which by and large seems to be astonishingly resistant to it.  Can only bring to mind knowledge of one truly rotten one.

The necessity to build lightly to minimise the load on a fairly weedy motor and transmission probably had an influence there.