invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

5 hours ago, Talbot said:

If you are going to keep hanging your hat on that, then there is genuinely no way you are listening to good useful advice.  A model 70 is made of nothing.  Absolutely and completely nothing.  The glassfibre is wafer thin, the chassis is barely that, and is a platform only, and it has all the roadholding and handling prowess of a wayward shopping trolley.  Also, remember that GRP does not have the energy-adsorbing characteristics that steel does, meaning it needs barely a tap, and the GRP will shatter.  GRP needs to be HUGELY thick to have any real strength. 

Seriously.  From a safety standpoint it was utterly dire even when measured by the standards of 50 years ago.  Please do not think this is any safer than being on a quad bike.  It isn't.  In fact it's likely worse as you are not wearing any protection and you're lulled into a false sense of security.  Also, the seat in a model 70 offers precisely zero safety benefits.  It's a chunk of foam on a slab of plywood, held together with some thin-wall tubing.

I would rather drive absolutely any car made since about 1980 with no airbags and no seatbelt than drive a model 70.

the reason I hang up on that, is because of comments like yours, that seem to ignore the fact the Model 70 was Crash tested back in the day, and data from the crash tests was used to improve the crash safety of the vehicle throughout production, in the end the Model 70 was compliant with the ECE crash test regulations at the time, I am *not* trying to say that a Model 70 would be considered crash worthy today, but to claim it was utter dire even by the standards of its time, is doing it an unfair disservice 

and ditto your comment about "the handling prowess of a wayward shopping trolley"

yes they will pitch and roll as a 3 wheeler does, but they can get a hustle on! I highly recommend watching this video where the first ex-ministry owner of MHJ22P chucks it about with quite some vigor! 

 

I also see a lot of comparisons made with Reliant 3 wheelers, but a Model 70 is a much more robust vehicle then that of reliant, nothing I think states that more then the fact that *both* weigh 410Kg, but the Reliant is a 4 cylinder 850cc 4 seater car, while the Model 70 is a 493cc 2 cylinder single seater vehicle 

here is a Model 70 Chassis (looking at it from the underside, there are also 2 big bulkhead uprights)

and here is the chassis of a Reliant 3 wheeler

 

[Datsuncog]

7 hours ago, DodgeRover said:

God knows how many times this has been suggested. A website set up by Dez with a forum to deal especially for them and move this thread over to that.

I mean, it could be argued that if one clicks on a thread marked 'LightBulbFun's Invacar General Ramble Thread', one should consider oneself already suitably informed of what might lie within. And if one has no interest in Invacars, or indeed an active dislike of them, maybe one might feel happier just... scrolling on past.

And yet, apparently, each and every day a number of seasoned forum members stumble onto this here thread, and instantly find themselves so traumatised and triggered by the thought of a young man and his small car existing and going about their day that they have no option but to scream their distress and upset over and over and over and over again - even when they've been politely thanked, and advised that their concerns have been noted and indeed already factored in to a personal risk matrix.

It must be exhausting for them.

Mods, maybe we need to add a trigger warning for our more easily upset members? Or maybe some sort of Capcha, which asks users to click on all images containing a Tippen Delta in order to proceed further?

[S2000]

How fast were you going when you crashed at FOD out of interest?

[comfortablynumb]

That's exactly what I mean @sharley17194, we've all got different perceptions, there's no way I'd tell you that cars of that age are deathtraps, I'm frequently around in an early 60's landy, and have been a regular passenger in a 64 Anglia 105e neither of which have seatbelts.

I'd expect you to be having fun, it's why you're doing it.  Which is exactly my point of not telling you what to do, it's none of my business.

Maybe I'm wrong, reliants aren't dangerous, but my first real event which brought them to my attention was death of friends, which tends to colour my judgement.

I look forward to reading about your exploits about this as much as your other ones👍

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

15 hours ago, BorniteIdentity said:

This has made my day. Off you fuck, you thimble headed gherkin. 

Point proven

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

15 hours ago, warren t claim said:

I've been here 15 years. You've been here 6 weeks and have no fucking idea how much history there is between myself and @LightBulbFun and how far I've gone to try and help him over the last year or so.

I couldn't give a rats arse how long you've been here, and it's no concern of yours now long I've been here either.... I don't care either about the history between you both, what I do care about is when someone I class as a decent bloke I feel is being treated badly.... In a forum that's supposed to be for fans of these invacars.

[Talbot]

1 hour ago, LightBulbFun said:

<snip> various anecdotal comments about model 70s crashworthyness and a grainy youtube video of one being driven </snip>

Bear in mind that the crash testing done was related to three-wheeled vehicles, which was severely limited compared to actual road cars.  To say it passed it's crash test means very little.

.. and if you genuinely believe that those two .gif images and video show anything other than something that has atrocious handling and roadholding... well, I hate to say it, but that's your inexperience showing.

You need to recognise just how unsuited to modern traffic one of these is, simply so that should it ever actually get to London and do more than a chip run, you drive accordingly. At the moment you have your head firmly in the sand as to just how horrific the concept of using one of these on a regular basis in modern traffic is.  All I will say is that you have been (repeatedly) warned.

Also, I note that the gifs you showed above are actually a snip from a BBC program where the comment was made that they were fundamentally unsafe, and that 85% of the users of these complained about the unpredictable handling.

"they were not reliable, they were unstable, they were fundamentally unsafe"

[reb]

One day I was driving to work in the snow, being cautious and driving well within my capabilities and the conditions. An Edinburgh plated taxi came round a blind bend fully sideways and hit my drivers door going around 40mph. Thankfully it was a glancing blow, yet my car still ended up in the ditch. That's the sort of thing you need to be prepared to happen, other people being incredibly fucking stupid. That was in a Volvo 850 and it still bent the shell enough that a replacement door wouldn't seal.

Strangely, even though I've had a much more serious crash since then (which was absolutely my fault) that's the one that I get flashbacks to when I hear crunching metal.

At the point I started my break from driving I had been driving for 6 years, most of it spent doing upwards of 1000 miles a week, and I still found driving in high traffic areas stressful, and that's in modern* comfortable and easy to drive cars. I think Dez is underestimating what it will be like to drive in London in an Invacar for extended periods.

But, I could be wrong. He might love it.

And at the end of the day, we've all got to die somehow.

[Talbot]

15 minutes ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

I couldn't give a rats arse how long you've been here, and it's no concern of yours now long I've been here either.... I don't care either about the history between you both, what I do care about is when someone I class as a decent bloke I feel is being treated badly.... In a forum that's supposed to be for fans of these invacars.

If you don't like it, you can always fuck off.

You do not just arrive on a forum and start shouting to the regulars that you don't like what they are doing.  It tends to get on peoples tits.

And no, this is not a forum for fans of invacars.  It just so happens that one member is particularly vocal about them.. which he is quite welcome to be.

[big_al_granvia]

shirley the question should be "how to make rev safe for modern use??". well a safety cage around the drivers legs with roll over protection, fit a 2 gallon fuel cell, move the battery inboard with master cutoff within easy reach of the driver and fit a plumbed in fire suppresant system out of a formula ford. 

[Talbot]

2 minutes ago, big_al_granvia said:

shirley the question should be "how to make rev safe for modern use??".

The vehicle is fundamentally unsafe.  All the rollover protection and fire suppressant system in the world is not going to stop a range-rover sport at 30mph from flattening it.

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

15 minutes ago, Talbot said:

If you don't like it, you can always fuck off.

You do not just arrive on a forum and start shouting to the regulars that you don't like what they are doing.  It tends to get on peoples tits.

And no, this is not a forum for fans of invacars.  It just so happens that one member is particularly vocal about them.. which he is quite welcome to be.

And if YOU don't like it you can fuck off yourself!  It's not me shouting at the regulars, I'm the one who's being told to shut up for calling out bullies.... by the way, I too am a regular since joining, as for the forum not being for Invacars look at the bloody title!  Now get back in your box, I won't be bullied! 

[reb]

7 minutes ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

And if YOU don't like it you can fuck off yourself!  It's not me shouting at the regulars, I'm the one who's being told to shut up for calling out bullies.... by the way, I too am a regular since joining, as for the forum not being for Invacars look at the bloody title!  Now get back in your box, I won't be bullied! 

Jesus christ. For your own sake, as the kids say, go touch grass.

[D.E]

8 minutes ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

as for the forum not being for Invacars look at the bloody title!  

Yes, this topic. Not the whole forum.

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

1 minute ago, reb said:

Jesus christ. For your own sake, as the kids say, go touch grass.

So what would you do? Just take it? Well I dont! Off no fucker!

[reb]

Just now, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

So what would you do? Just take it? Well I dont! Off no fucker!

Find the button to switch your device off. Pick up a book.

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

1 minute ago, D.E said:

Yes, this topic. Not the whole forum.

You know full well what I mean 

[chadders]

10 minutes ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

And if YOU don't like it you can fuck off yourself!  It's not me shouting at the regulars, I'm the one who's being told to shut up for calling out bullies.... by the way, I too am a regular since joining, as for the forum not being for Invacars look at the bloody title!  Now get back in your box, I won't be bullied! 

This is very impressive.

I haven't seen a tantrum like this since my youngest son was in his early teens and we had to lock him in his room. He was very embarrassed when he calmed down.

Maybe a biscuit and a glass of warm milk might help?

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

1 minute ago, reb said:

Find the button to switch your device off. Pick up a book.

And you scroll past!

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

Just now, chadders said:

This is very impressive.

I haven't seen a tantrum like this since my youngest son was in his early teens and we had to lock him in his room. He was very embarrassed when he calmed down.

Maybe a biscuit and a glass of warm milk might help?

No it's called fighting your own corner, not being part of a clique 

[reb]

Just now, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

And you scroll past!

It's a forum. It doesn't matter.

[BorniteIdentity]

5 minutes ago, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

So what would you do? Just take it? Well I dont! Off no fucker!

You’re hard…

[BorniteIdentity]

31 minutes ago, Talbot said:

Also, I note that the gifs you showed above are actually a snip from a BBC program where the comment was made that they were fundamentally unsafe, and that 85% of the users of these complained about the unpredictable handling.

"they were not reliable, they were unstable, they were fundamentally unsafe"

Pahahahaha. Delicious. I will probably find myself still laughing at this at 3am. 

Incredible. 

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Talbot said:

Bear in mind that the crash testing done was related to three-wheeled vehicles, which was severely limited compared to actual road cars.  To say it passed it's crash test means very little.

the tests where done comparing to a number of other vehicles, not just 3 wheelers, this is initially why MIRA could not release the results of the testing, as the other companies involved did not want their results to also be published

6 hours ago, Talbot said:

.. and if you genuinely believe that those two .gif images and video show anything other than something that has atrocious handling and roadholding... well, I hate to say it, but that's your inexperience showing.

You need to recognise just how unsuited to modern traffic one of these is, simply so that should it ever actually get to London and do more than a chip run, you drive accordingly. At the moment you have your head firmly in the sand as to just how horrific the concept of using one of these on a regular basis in modern traffic is.  All I will say is that you have been (repeatedly) warned.

im basing my thoughts, on the 3+ people that have driven Model 70's (and an Invacar Mk12E) on an almost daily basis, and together have accumulated I think over 10,000 miles now, with any sort of major incident, again im not saying the Model 70, will corner like an F1 car, but i post those GIF's and video's to show that "no it wont just fall over like Top gear has you believing" 

I will also point out that, thats 10,000 miles without any major incident, and only 1 breakdown occurred that required recovery, and that was simply a drive belt snapping, that was already well past its due date and should of been replaced before hand, and could of easily been replaced/repaired at the roadside if required

6 hours ago, Talbot said:

Also, I note that the gifs you showed above are actually a snip from a BBC program where the comment was made that they were fundamentally unsafe, and that 85% of the users of these complained about the unpredictable handling.

I actually made the GIF's from this video, which uses the same source footage

also as I have posted about in this very thread, theres a Vocal minority against the Trikes in the 1970's and the Media latched onto it in a frenzy, it was the Fashionable thing to hate so to speak

but if you actually look into the facts and figures, as I have posted in detail in this thread, from trawling the actual reports and discussions in Hansard about it all the majority of users where happy with the Tricycles and a lot of the complaints mentioned, came from people with older less capable Villiers machines, nothing shows this more then when in 1976, the Ministry announced they would be withdrawing all Invalid vehicles by 1981, and suddenly there was a massive uproar from the silent majority of Trike users who did not want to give up these machines, here is one such demonstration in favour of the Model 70

and such was the immense response that, the Trike was not officially with drawn until 2003!

6 hours ago, Talbot said:

The vehicle is fundamentally unsafe.  All the rollover protection and fire suppressant system in the world is not going to stop a range-rover sport at 30mph from flattening it.

Question, what weighs more, a Transit Bullion Van or a Range Rover Sport? because I have a GIF for the former!

as you can see it just twats the front chassis members and punts the Model 70 out of the way, its certainly not a pleasant crash, but I dont think its any worse then any other small car in the same situation, a Mini or what have you, nor is it immediately fatal 

I certainly would not want to be on a motor-cycle in the same setup, and end up going under the wheels of the bullion van instead, or crack your head/neck as your body is smashed against the bonnet of the transit van

 

again not saying they are safe by modern car standards, but I am just trying to resolve them of the bollocks that was spread about them 50 years ago now and to show people that I think they are no worse in a lot of regards then something like a Classic Mini or the such like

again a lot of people seem to be comparing the Model 70 as if its some sort of Microcar, a Velorex or such, but thats really not a fair comparison 

 

[reb]

That doesn't look like a smash you'd walk away from.

[D.E]

2 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

nor is it immediately fatal 

Sorry, but I doubt that. That van seems to hit its side, a place where it probably doesn't offer much protection. Even modern microcars don't. Beloved Dutch tv presenter and actor Aart Staartjes died when his microcar was hit by a Clio (not a particularly big or heavy car) at a speed below 50kmh. The Clio had only minor damage and the driver didn't suffer any injuries at all...

[OhNoWhatHaveIDone]

@LightBulbFunHere's the problem when you are trying to explain about retrospective period crash testing etc of the Model 70 to the haters.... You are simply FEEDING THE TROLLS...... for one simple reason, as an educated person, you and I know than you cannot reason with stupidity!

[reb]

Just now, OhNoWhatHaveIDone said:

@LightBulbFunHere's the problem when you are trying to explain about retrospective period crash testing etc of the Model 70 to the haters.... You are simply FEEDING THE TROLLS...... for one simple reason, as an educated person, you and I know than you cannot reason with stupidity!

Sudo grep self-awareness | bash

[LightBulbFun]

4 minutes ago, D.E said:

Sorry, but I doubt that. That van seems to hit its side, a place where it probably doesn't offer much protection. Even modern microcars don't. Beloved Dutch tv presenter and actor Aart Staartjes died when his microcar was hit by a Clio (not a particularly big or heavy car) at a speed below 50kmh. The Clio had only minor damage and the driver didn't suffer any injuries at all...

 

7 minutes ago, reb said:

That doesn't look like a smash you'd walk away from.

perhaps I am a bit hasty with that comment, certainly I imagine the G Forces involved would not do any favours to your organs, but what I mean is, its not a twisted heap, nor has it been flattened or anything such, it did remain fairly intact, in what I think a lot of people consider a worse case scenario, an offside crash 

I fail to see how its worse then being on a Motorcycle or a Quad bike for example?

[BorniteIdentity]

10 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

the tests where done comparing to a number of other vehicles, not just 3 wheelers, this is initially why MIRA could not release the results of the testing, as the other companies involved did not want their results to also be published

im basing my thoughts, on the 3+ people that have driven Model 70's (and an Invacar Mk12E) on an almost daily basis, and together have accumulated I think over 10,000 miles now, with any sort of major incident, again im not saying the Model 70, will corner like an F1 car, but i post those GIF's and video's to show that "no it wont just fall over like Top gear has you believing" 

I will also point out that, thats 10,000 miles without any major incident, and only 1 breakdown occurred that required recovery, and that was simply a drive belt snapping, that was already well past its due date and should of been replaced before hand, and could of easily been replaced/repaired at the roadside if required

I actually made the GIF's from this video, which uses the same source footage

also as I have posted about in this very thread, theres a Vocal minority against the Trikes in the 1970's and the Media latched onto it in a frenzy, it was the Fashionable thing to hate so to speak

but if you actually look into the facts and figures, as I have posted in detail in this thread, from trawling the actual reports and discussions in Hansard about it all the majority of users where happy with the Tricycles and a lot of the complaints mentioned, came from people with older less capable Villiers machines, nothing shows this more then when in 1976, the Ministry announced they would be withdrawing all Invalid vehicles by 1981, and suddenly there was a massive uproar from the silent majority of Trike users who did not want to give up these machines, here is one such demonstration in favour of the Model 70

and such was the immense response that, the Trike was not officially with drawn until 2003!

Question, what weighs more, a Transit Bullion Van or a Range Rover Sport? because I have a GIF for the former!

as you can see it just twats the front chassis members and punts the Model 70 out of the way, its certainly not a pleasant crash, but I dont think its any worse then any other small car in the same situation, a Mini or what have you, nor is it immediately fatal 

I certainly would not want to be on a motor-cycle in the same setup, and end up going under the wheels of the bullion van instead, or crack your head/neck as your body is smashed against the bonnet of the transit van

 

again not saying they are safe by modern car standards, but I am just trying to resolve them of the bollocks that was spread about them 50 years ago now and to show people that I think they are no worse in a lot of regards then something like a Classic Mini or the such like

again a lot of people seem to be comparing the Model 70 as if its some sort of Microcar, a Velosolex or such, but thats really not a fair comparison 

 

Loquacious, as always. 

Do you accept that contemporary opinion at the time was that they’re terrible and unsafe? Yes or No?

And do you honestly think that the crash protection of a Invacar is the same as a Mini. Just a straightforward answer would suffice…