invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

On 1/5/2020 at 10:43 PM, Six-cylinder said:

Mrs6C has suggested you might like a P45t bulb in its Wotan box for preservation and we will be pleased to give you one.

I also have some Wotan 5w twin contact bulbs 209 but the individual packaging is unbranded.

 happy to report both sets of lamps arrived intact!

thank you very much for them  (indeed both types of lamps have unusual date codes, ill have to upload a picture or 2 to one of the lighting forums im part of and see if anyone knows whats up there)

Shine a little light

 

 

I will get the Halogen lamps lit up, I just need to setup something a bit beefier then a 9V battery first! ) 

[High Jetter]

Top bulb-balancing skills there, LBF!

[LightBulbFun]

25 minutes ago, High Jetter said:

Top bulb-balancing skills there, LBF!

haha thanks id of liked to have grabbed a less wonky shot, but I was worried if I wanted any longer id flatten the battery LOL

 

26 minutes ago, Eddie Honda said:

I was going to say CEP, but getting 2 out of 3 ain't bad.

 

8 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

I thought it was cep as well,but someone who worked at the factory said it was l,but I myself was sure it was c.

 

ah interesting, its interesting how there's so little info out there about them!

I do wonder if they were produced as a generic rear light a parts bin item from the get go, or if they were made specifically for something and then picked up by other car makers 

as Mentioned the oldest vehicle I can find to use them is the Model 70 (which I find a bit amusing because everyone says they are Reliant Regal/Robin lights, when actually no its technically the other way round, the Regal/Robin actually use Model 70 rear lights!)

but I don't think they were made for the Model 70 specifically as they dont match the rear tail profile at all (and if AC went through the trouble of having new lights made for the Model 70 you would think they would match them to the rear tail profile)

as I think I mentioned before, its interesting to note that one of the Model 70 drawings in the workshop manual does dictate the Model 70 with Lucas L572 rear lights

where as the next drawing shows Production rear lights

I do wonder why they switch from Lucas L572 rear lights as used on the Model 67 to the Rear the lights the Model 70 uses

I wonder if Lucas ended production of them during the Model 70's development? although Reliant kept using them until August 1972, unless Reliant just happened to have a large stock of them

(it is worth noting that the User trial Model 70's used Lucas rear lights so that tells us at least that sometime between July 1970 and July 1971 is when AC switched rear lights)

its interesting to note that the Spare parts manual for the Model 70 does not actually list anything for rear lights at all!

(dragging it over here because its getting Model 70 related and I don't want to upset anyone!)

 

[Mr Pastry]

49 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

ah interesting, its interesting how there's so little info out there about them!

I do wonder if they were produced as a generic rear light a parts bin item from the get go, or if they were made specifically for something and then picked up by other car makers 

Those lights were fitted to a lot of caravans, I think that was the main market.

[plasticvandan]

They were definitely caravan lamps,though reliant used cep front indicators on the bug,Robin and kitten,which were also used on the viva,so they were car market items,Reliant were making around 13000 Regals a year by 72,so it's likely they had large stocks on order,the chrome rimmed lamps were used on big Rovers up to the mid 60s I believe,but after that reliant would have been the only customer for them.However,the Robin was in development from 1967,and I think the first prototypes were built in 1970,and obviously the body moulding was designed for the cep lights.So they would have been around before then,even if only just,as reliant would have looked through various catalogues at what rear lamps to use,and made the body to fit.

i certainly remember seeing 70s caravans when I we little with them fitted,as being a reliant nerd I spotted the lamps,

 

[LightBulbFun]

1 hour ago, Mr Pastry said:

Those lights were fitted to a lot of caravans, I think that was the main market.

by those lights just to clarify do you mean these, which are the original Model 70 rear lights (not counting the user trial cars/Prototypes)

 

or these bellow? I know these rear lights where off the shelf ones used on caravans and what have you, they were fitted as replacement units to Model 70's from the 1990s onwards or so (and normally they were mounted flush to the top of the wing/tail, them being mounted lower down for some reason iss one of the unique identifying features of REV  I suspect it was a result of someone being lazy and reusing the existing mounting holes for the old lights, rather then make new holes to mount the lights flush with the top of the wings, but I have not yet removed a rear light to confirm that) 

(and where made by Britax and Rubbolite, not sure who copied who there!)

18 minutes ago, plasticvandan said:

They were definitely caravan lamps,though reliant used cep front indicators on the bug,Robin and kitten,which were also used on the viva,so they were car market items,Reliant were making around 13000 Regals a year by 72,so it's likely they had large stocks on order,the chrome rimmed lamps were used on big Rovers up to the mid 60s I believe,but after that reliant would have been the only customer for them.However,the Robin was in development from 1967,and I think the first prototypes were built in 1970,and obviously the body moulding was designed for the cep lights.So they would have been around before then,even if only just,as reliant would have looked through various catalogues at what rear lamps to use,and made the body to fit.

i certainly remember seeing 70s caravans when I we little with them fitted,as being a reliant nerd I spotted the lamps,

 

ah very interesting! do you have any picture of the reliant Robin prototypes? would be very interesting to see regardless of the whole rear lights thing

I dont think iv seen a Reliant prototype before!

I had a quick look at 1970s caravans, I saw some that used similar not quite the same rear lights, wonder if anyone has a picture of such a caravan using the same lights as the Model 70/Reliant Robin

[Mr Pastry]

I meant what you call the original model 70 lights.    The others of course are still widely available for trailers etc.  Were all the Model 70/ Invacar rear wings the same shape, or were there different mouldings, over time, to accept alternative lights?   

[LightBulbFun]

12 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I meant what you call the original model 70 lights.

cool  I figured such, just wanted to clarify as I know the later rear lights where also used on Caravans and what have you as you say

12 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Were all the Model 70/ Invacar rear wings the same shape, or were there different mouldings, over time, to accept alternative lights?

well the Model 70 shape comes* from the Model 67 which used Lucas L572 rear lights, and even into the Model 70 the body shape stayed like that throughout production

(and the Prototype Model 70's used Lucas L572 rear lights too)

(I always found it amusing that the Britax rear lights fitted the rear profile much better then the original rear lights on the Model 70 LOL)

(*I do wonder if the body was designed for the Model 70 from the get go, with the Model 67 being a stop gap while the Model 70 was developed, I do know Prototype Model 70's existed with this Body before the Model 67 entered production, but I dont know how far back Model 67 development goes)

[Mr Pastry]

Lucas L572 were on Hillman Minx IIRC

[Mrs6C]

Dolly has the Rubbolites, mounted in the higher position.

The RHS lens used to be on the LHS, which was the one closest to the shed fire, hence the melted look to it...

 

I'm not sure what happened to the lens from the one that is now on the LHS. It wasn't present when we collected her. The angled bulb arrangement is interesting.

 

[LightBulbFun]

58 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Lucas L572 were on Hillman Minx IIRC

ah cool as in the minx was the first car to use those lights or just an example of a car to use em?  

16 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

Dolly has the Rubbolites, mounted in the higher position.

The RHS lens used to be on the LHS, which was the one closest to the shed fire, hence the melted look to it...

 

I'm not sure what happened to the lens from the one that is now on the LHS. It wasn't present when we collected her. The angled bulb arrangement is interesting.

 

interesting  I always assumed her LHS lense simply burned away/melted away completely while her right hand one only got partly melted because it was further away, but someone could of swapped em!

I do wonder who came out first with this design of light was it Rubbolite or britax

until Dolly showed up I was only aware of the Birtax ones, but I have a feeling looking at the design of both that the rubbolites might be the original design but i'm not 100% sure

the interesting thing about the Rubbolites (apart from being made of rubber!) is the mounting hardware, im not sure what those are, rivets or screws? i'm not sure! (or how you remove them!)

[Eddie Honda]

56 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

Lucas L572 were on Hillman Minx IIRC

Aye SII Minx and Husky / Cob

[LightBulbFun]

and for those wondering about part numbers from what I can tell the the Rubbolites are Rubbolite M88, and the Britax ones are Britax 9021  

(both of which are thankfully still available i think)

[Eddie Honda]

Is that with or without number plate lenses? They are also late DAF33 van/combi.

[Mrs6C]

16 minutes ago, Eddie Honda said:

Is that with or without number plate lenses? They are also late DAF33 van/combi.

 

The Model 70s have the variant without the numberplate light, which is Rubbolite part no. 88/02/01

[overrun]

Those fasteners look like coach bolts.

[LightBulbFun]

18 minutes ago, Eddie Honda said:

Is that with or without number plate lenses? They are also late DAF33 van/combi.

 

14 minutes ago, Mrs6C said:

The Model 70s have the variant without the numberplate light, which is Rubbolite part no. 88/02/01

the Birtax 9021 and Rubbolite 88/02 is the one without the clear section for the number plate and is what the Model 70 used  

(I cant quite recall but im pretty sure Dolly's ones are double pole which are not actually listed on the website! would theoretically be 88/02/00, assuming on the website when they say Double pole they are referring to the Type of lamp base)

indeed I noticed the DAF Vans in the past   although I dont think they are original to it

curiously I have seen a dutch Citroen H van with the same lights!

 

[Eddie Honda]

8 minutes ago, LightBulbFun said:

indeed I noticed the DAF Vans in the past   although I dont think they are original to it

Not original (as in designed for it) to it, but factory fit.

[LightBulbFun]

21 minutes ago, Eddie Honda said:

Not original (as in designed for it) to it, but factory fit.

interesting, according to the magical but often wrong wikipedia the DAF33 was discontinued in 1974

I dont think these britax/rubbolites went that far back?

and I think this one has more typical rear lights

https://flic.kr/p/GbXuFL

happy to be proven wrong tho  

iv also seen DAFs with squarer lights

and this one is just sending me mixed signals LOL

I think these britax/rubbolites originated from the Mini pickup

although I do wonder if they originate from a mini are both the britax and rubbolites both copies of a lucas original then? and did the mini pickup have em from the get go or?

[Eddie Honda]

I don't know how the right hand replacement went on HOR 572L.

What I do know is that it was resprayed only about ten years ago. I sold the paint, it was more than enough, but whoever was doing the spraying ripped the guy off for more than quoted and extra paint. There's some photos fresh after respray here.

http://dafcars.proboards.com/thread/1213/littlebelter-bestel-combi

I see Tony has it now.

http://dafcars.proboards.com/thread/3681/daf-33-van-project

I don't know why people use different lights when the correct ones are available. Look at my Flickr of all the ones in The Museum.

[LightBulbFun]

27 minutes ago, Eddie Honda said:

I don't know how the right hand replacement went on HOR 572L.

What I do know is that it was resprayed only about ten years ago. I sold the paint, it was more than enough, but whoever was doing the spraying ripped the guy off for more than quoted and extra paint. There's some photos fresh after respray here.

http://dafcars.proboards.com/thread/1213/littlebelter-bestel-combi

I see Tony has it now.

http://dafcars.proboards.com/thread/3681/daf-33-van-project

I don't know why people use different lights when the correct ones are available. Look at my Flickr of all the ones in The Museum.

interesting stuff  

do you know what year the rounded lights were introduced and who made them back then?

if they go that far back, its shame AC did not use em from the get go, as they fit the profile much better, although I do like the original rear lights because they fill out the space below wing tops better

it would be fun to fit a Model 70 with Lucas L572 rear lights as a Nod to the Prototype Model 70's (I Do wonder if BPE29H retained her L572 lights right until the end)

its interesting to note that im pretty sure the round type only started popping up on Model 70s in the 1990s

I wonder if thats because only then were the original style where discontinued?

I know you cant get the orignial style anymore and they command a premium because of their use on reliants but i dont actually know when they stopped being available 

 

as a side note its interesting to note that at least even in 1974 The Tippen Delta still used L572 rear lights, although they could of easily just been left over from when said tippen was a petrol vehicle

but BKV682E did gain Britax/rubbolite rear lights at some point in its life interestingly  (sadly I dont have full rear end shot of BKV682E it would be interesting to see how they fitted them because the Lucas L572 rear lights require a large hole in the body work for the bulb holders etc to sit in, to give that flush look on the outside)

[Mr Pastry]

L572 were designed for  the Hillman/Commer, i.e. Rootes Group .

Mini van and pickup originally used their own Lucas rear lamps which were the same style as the Mk 1 Mini saloon but both the lenses and bases were different  - flat base, not handed.  Later pickups used the Britax type and that may have been when it was introduced - not sure about the van, it's all a long time ago.    

Rubbolites I think were only ever trailer/accessory parts. The fixings are indeed coach bolts, with a square shank inside the rubber, which turns uncontrollably  when you try and undo the rusted nuts behind.  

 I worked with a chap who had a new Mod 70 in 1973/4,  I remember looking at the amazing shiny engine, but sadly I don't remember what sort of lamps it had!  

[LightBulbFun]

6 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Mini van and pickup originally used their own Lucas rear lamps which were the same style as the Mk 1 Mini saloon but both the lenses and bases were different  - flat base, not handed.  Later pickups used the Britax type and that may have been when it was introduced - not sure about the van, it's all a long time ago.    

 

ah interesting was it something like this?

Iv been told these are from the Austin Van version of the Mini

I dont think they were ever fitted to Model 70's in service, just looks like something fitted after they left the DHSS, by private owners

6 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

Rubbolites I think were only ever trailer/accessory parts. The fixings are indeed coach bolts, with a square shank inside the rubber, which turns uncontrollably  when you try and undo the rusted nuts behind.  

 

I cant imagine getting them in there in the first place would of been easy! but good to know, I guess if it becomes an issue you could cut a slot in the head and jam a screwdriver in there to keep the bolt from spinning

6 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

 I worked with a chap who had a new Mod 70 in 1973/4,  I remember looking at the amazing shiny engine, but sadly I don't remember what sort of lamps it had!  

oh very cool! have a picture of ATW722Ls engine its very clean!

your chaps car would of had standard Model 70 rear lights, from Production start to production end the rear lights never changed

(unless the first 100, (J reg!) Model 70 had L572 lights, but sadly don't have any pictures to tell sadly but I know GPG721K has standard rear lights and that's the 111th car off the production line)

it was only after production in the 1990s did Model 70's gain the Britax/Rubbolites

7 hours ago, Mr Pastry said:

L572 were designed for  the Hillman/Commer, i.e. Rootes Group .

 

ah cool, fits given the hillman Imp hinges used on the bonnet/front service hatch! (that everyone seem to point out, then point out your windscreen wiper switch is "upside down" when its not, ironically the one in REV is upside down LOL)

[Mr Pastry]

Yes first 2 pictures are Mini van, L657, which was what I was thinking of.  There was another type used (pic below) but I'm not sure whether this was just Morris or something more subtle.  Then the Britax were used later.  You'd have to ask a Mini licker.

I'm surprised that AC fitted the Rubbolites as original equipment as they look a bit agricultural.

I think by the time you had cut a slot in the coach bolt there would not be much of the lamp left, so best to chew it all off and replace.

Imp hinges were used by very many small production and one-off builders back in the day, and someone like AC or Invacar would have bought them directly from the hinge manufacturer, not from their local Rootes dealer. 

[LightBulbFun]

7 minutes ago, Mr Pastry said:

I'm surprised that AC fitted the Rubbolites as original equipment as they look a bit agricultural.

 

Oh did I say that somewhere? if I did i need to correct it!

as the Rubbolite/britax rear lamps where only fitted from the 1990s onwards, by approved repairers as the original rear lights failed

this is the original style fitted at production (which where/are apparently quite fragile) im still trying to track down just exactly who made them and what their part number was

 

then as they failed in 1990s Model 70's gained these rear lights (usually mounted flush with the wing tops!)

[LightBulbFun]

so yesterday I had my 19th driving lesson

I think this one went particularly well, minimal input was required from the driving instructor, and I managed to get both maneuvers he had me do right the first time  (which was driving into a parking bay into a car park, and pulling over to the left into a parking bay on the side of the road)

and we also took what I think was a much more direct route to the location, well it covered lot more A road then I normally do in a lesson, up the A13 and A406 which was interesting  

I did speak to him about when I should book my practical driving lesson, and he says the moment you pass your theory, hopefully on the 21st, to immediately book my practical, so thats a good sign I think! (and he said it can be shuffled around if needed, if say it turns out I end up booking it for a slot too soon etc)

[LightBulbFun]

also yesterday Simon visited his collection with a proper camera and grabbed a bunch of pictures for me  

sadly we are still having difficulty making out the exact chassis number of his Model 64 (its in a awkward location to photograph), but im pretty well convinced that its registration number is LPA358K, making the 3rd to last Model 64 off the production line! sadly does not show up on the DVLA, but would be interesting to try and V62 it  

I also confirmed that his Tippen Delta's chassis numbers all matched up   and also found during the whole Visa google maps thing, that simons collection is only about 2 and a half hours away from me, I THINK I can manage such a trip and simon is eiger to have me visit (I very much want to visit too!)

so ill definitely see if I can make a trip down at some point (for some reason I thought the collection was further away, and I would have to wait until I was on the road before I could visit it)

sadly I cant share any of the pictures currently But I did ask and get specific permission to share this picture, as I knew the number plate aficionados would appreciate it 

[LightBulbFun]

Just now, richardmorris said:

How is the roof attached- just bolts? Could you take it off and make a convertible?

Yep! just a load of bolts round the back and front and it more or less lifts off, in fact the entire body can be removed from the chassis that way  

 

 

      

 

 

 

 

[richardmorris]

First photo looks like an airfix kit!

[High Jetter]

Slightly optimistic caravan pull in 5th pic!