invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

Cor! I didn't know his book had been published, I thought it was still 'draft' (maybe I'm reading very old forum posts).

 

I will be getting this too for sure.

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-British-Invalid-Carriage-Abandoned-ebook/dp/B00G706R0O/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1551440074&sr=1-3&refinements=p_27%3AStuart+Cyphus

 

no this aint his new book, this an older book of his

 

just finished reading it,  the sections where a bit brief but it was still very enjoyable and was interesting learning if nothing else exactly what other invalid carriages existed

 

I look forward to his next book which is said to be much "juicier" so to speak

 

updated the survivors list with MEV419P which is the Model 70 pictured on the "Model 70" page of the book (I guess ill have to scan in the picture at some point)

[LightBulbFun]

managed to dig up a little more information on WOI654 and SOI7570

 

this site https://cartaxcheck.co.uk/

 

seems to actually give me some date of reg info

 

up first is WOI654 which comes back as registered on the 1st of July 1980, with "year" as 1980, is that supposed to be year of manufacture or year of registration?

 

 

and then next is SOI7570 which comes back as 1st of December 1978....

 

 

going by this info I want to say that NI got ex used UK Model 70s that where then registered as new vehicles in NI.... I do wonder why they did not just keep their UK regs...

 

 

 

BTW updated the survivors list with RPU821R

[Sir Snipes]

Year of reg, I should think.

[Datsuncog]

On 3/1/2019 at 2:53 PM, LightBulbFun said:

managed to dig up a little more information on WOI654 and SOI7570

[…]

going by this info I want to say that NI got ex used UK Model 70s that where then registered as new vehicles in NI.... I do wonder why they did not just keep their UK regs…

Well done, that's some sleuthing!

Until the mid-1970s, cars in Northern Ireland could legally carry either locally issued registrations (NI series), GB issued registrations, or Republic of Ireland registrations. If they were brought in from outside NI, they would be registered by the new owner with DVLNI, Northern Ireland's own version of DVLA but could EITHER keep their original plate or gain a brand-new plate.

At some stage in the 1970s, it became no longer permissible to own a car registered with a Republic of Ireland plate in NI - it was necessary to re-register the car to a new Northern Ireland plate. I'm not sure whether this was for administrative or political reasons - i.e. to make a car registered in ROI more conspicuous at a time when there were rumours of bombs and guns being brought over the border.

My dad was running a 1961 VW Beetle at the time in Belfast, with a Dublin plate (RZA 99 - quite a nifty plate), and recalls being threatened a number of times in Loyalist areas for driving a 'dirty Free-Stater car', so it's possible there were a number of reasons for this change.

It seems that there was never a similar requirement for GB-registered cars to be re-registered after being brought over - this was optional. Some people liked the ability to do this (for example, you could buy a one-year old ex-dealer demo car in England, bring it over to NI and then put a brand-new plate on it, thereby fooling neighbours/colleagues into thinking you had a brand-new car), others didn't care (I thought my Cortina would look daft on a new plate when I brought it over from Scotland in 2008, so opted to retain its original plate of NJW605X).

My understanding is that once DVLNI/DVA merged with DVLA in 2014, this no longer became an option because the registration authority remains in Swansea regardless of where in the UK a car is. Consequently, there are now A LOT of GB-plated cars in Northern Ireland these days (my own being one of them - brought over in 2016).

So, at a guess, I'd say that NI probably did receive its Model 70s with GB plates (since it appears they were registered from the factory) and they were then re-registered with a local numberplate, possibly at the point at which they were issued to an individual. 

In the case of SOI, it was issued while Model 70s were still current - but for WOI, production had ceased by the time it was assigned to a user. I'd say this is what's muddied the waters.

The re-registration may have been done because people might not have wanted to be issued with an 'English' car - it doesn't mean much to me, but a few older people I've spoken to have said they'd be reluctant to drive a car with GB plates, in case it made them a target somehow. Bit like my dad was, only he was using Southern Irish plates.

I'm guessing that invalid carriages were issued out of Musgrave Park Hospital in South Belfast, as this is the main orthopaedics hospital in Northern Ireland - hence the Belfast 'OI' series plates.

WOI is a puzzle, for sure - though I might just have a bit of a lead.

Yesterday a friend of MrsDC's from uni contacted her to say she'd got a new job.

She now works for the Transport Galleries at the Ulster Folk & Transport Museum, where WOI lives.

I might just be getting in touch with her... I'd like to nail down the build year and chassis number for this one.

[Edited for clarity - sorry, bit garbled in a few places there!]

[LightBulbFun]

interesting stuff

 

its worth noting even SOI was registered after Model 70 production ended if the site I found is to believed

 

(production of Invacar Model 70s ended in February 1978 with VES108S, but SOI has a DOR of December 1978)

 

thats cool that you have a potential "contact on the inside", ill also ask tentatively ask stuart about the whole thing

 

the thing about "not wanting to be seen in a UK Car" was one I was thinking of too

 

Also looked up UOI4719 for the giggles of it and that one comes back with a DOR of 1st october 1979

 

I find it interesting how the Irish websites can pull this info up but the main DVLA checker cant...

 

BTW is it me or does WOI654 not have an engine? I cant see an exhaust in that picture, and the wheels look to have camber to them like the suspension is unloaded

 

edit: never mind looking very closely i think I can make out an exhaust tip

[LightBulbFun]

forgot to post about this yesterday whoops

 

but yesterday was my first year "anniversary" on here

 

can you believe it? iv been posting about invacars and other shite on here for a whole year!   (sure does not feel like its been a year LOL)

[egg]

happy anniversary !

 

Do you have any other leads to go on re: a model 70 at the mo? 

[LightBulbFun]

happy anniversary !

 

Do you have any other leads to go on re: a model 70 at the mo? 

 

Thanks  

 

sadly no new leads on finding one

 

they are really playing difficult to find.

[LightBulbFun]

alright heard back from stuart on the NI Model 70s

 

turns out not even he is exactly sure what the whole story is, and that he was digging into it a few years back but there just was not a lot to go on

 

and that he cant say for certain why these have NI reg plates (although he agrees with your possible theories of making them look less British during some troubles)

 

he says it would he really could do with the chassis numbers of WOI654 and SOI7570

 

GIG4834 is the reg of the one that is suspected to be built out of spare parts, its chassis number being T495 which is a couple hundred up from the last known "officially produced" AC Model 70s (tho I am curious how it got an official AC Chassis number if it wasent made anywhere near themes ditton )

 

so yeah seems like we have a proper mystery on our hands

 

(I wonder if SOI7570 and WOI654 where also built out of spare parts hence given NI reg plates as well? because if theres one thing iv noticed is all of the NI reg Model 70s iv come across, yes all 4 LOL have been registered after production ended)

 

do HPI checks work with NI cars? if so could someone please run a HPI check on WOI654 SOI7570 and UOI4719, and tell us what details your able to pull up?

 

(specifically the chassis numbers please )

[SiC]

Do you know about this one?

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1086107

[egg]

That looks perfect for LBF, but it's not cheap...

[SiC]

To be honest its hard to get any vehicle older than the 80s for under 2k now - in any condition.

[brownnova]

On a Q plate... that’s interesting! Wonder what the story there is??

 

Maybe a way round the scraping order?

[dollywobbler]

To be honest its hard to get any vehicle older than the 80s for under 2k now - in any condition.

 

A decent running example sold for £2k last year. There's an element of piss-taking there.

[LightBulbFun]

Do you know about this one?

https://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C1086107

 

Oh holly hell, I did not....

 

thank you very much for finding that (I was watching the 3 wheeled section on cars n classic but never saw it iv now got a page open on their AC section to keep an eye on)

 

 

£2K is a bit much as DW says, especially as iv only got £793 saved up and especially as he does not show the rest of the car, I wonder if again its a case of, does not have a clue what its actually worth

 

but otherwise yeah that does look like exactly what im looking for good body work and good mechanical bits

 

there are a couple issues of,

 

A im not sure how id get it down from yorkshire, although it does sound like it might be drivable if nothing else LOL (main thing there is what condition are the brakes in)

 

and B why does it have to be on a Q plate, because as far as the DVLA is aware its a 1997 car so would not be eligible for historic tax/MOT exemption, and as such I would not be able to park in the dead end here as thats public highway (so the car would have to have valid tax and MOT if its not exempt from those)

 

(theres the 3rd issue of the fact its been horribly painted over, but thats relatively minor LOL)

 

it should be possible to re-register it with its original number plate/ID assuming the original chassis number survives somewhere, but id have nowhere to stick it while its in the processes of being re-registered

 

 

the seller provides a phone number, so ill see what you guys have to say first then I think ill give him a call sometime soon

 

On a Q plate... that’s interesting! Wonder what the story there is??

 

Maybe a way round the scraping order?

 

aye most likely I imagine it was done specifically as way to shake its Identity so the DHSS couldn't go "Oi thats my car give it back!"

[egg]

I think if you paid for transporting it you'd be looking at £200 at best I think.

 

It's never had an MOT on the online records either.

[SiC]

A decent running example sold for £2k last year. There's an element of piss-taking there.

Is that not just the standard Classic Car market nowadays though? Something sells for x, person y has one in worse shape but gives it a go selling it at x+[pisstake]%. Someone is after one, see that is the only around and then buys it. This end up causing people to come to accept that price new norm. While there is demand for Classic Cars and there is a finite supply, people will pay it and the cycle repeats.

 

I mean to put it another way, if you _really_ want an Invacar real bad, what are your options? That is about the only one around for sale at the moment. Hence its a case of make that guy an offer or wait longer in the hope a better one comes along.

 

If you want a project and a hobby to tinker with, £2k cash isn't a whole lot of cash to blow nowadays. Especially not a lot of cash for the the demographic of this - i.e. middle aged house owner, stable job and career, possibly children have left the nest too who remember these cars from their childhood and maybe have a connection to them (family/friend/neighbor).

 

It might sell for that or he might take an offer. We also don't really know the condition apart from one rubbish photo. Might just be cosmetically bad or might have more troubles.

 

Not I like the classic car market this way but it unfortunately seems to be the reality. Its why I can't get a decent Triumph GT6 for less than, say, a Boxster in very nice condition.

[egg]

LBF - I'm sure a shiter between Sheffield and London would keep it for you while you badger Simon @ the ICR for the original reg plate. As we know, they have all the model 70 records, unlike my situation .

 

Complete and running - I have the figure of £1200 in my mind. I may be well out, but that's what's in my head.

[busmansholiday]

I'm to the north of Sheffield so the wrong way really. Have you rung them and asked, in particular, where in Sheffield it is as it could be anywhere from the outskirts of Chesterfield to a couple of miles from me.

[Scruffy Bodger]

AFAIK you might have a bit of a battle on your hands getting rid of a Q plate. Usually when a vehicle has one they are stuck with them.

[LightBulbFun]

LBF - I'm sure a shiter between Sheffield and London would keep it for you while you badger Simon @ the ICR for the original reg plate. As we know, they have all the model 70 records, unlike my situation  .

 

Complete and running - I have the figure of £1200 in my mind. I may be well out, but that's what's in my head.

 

thats an idea

 

I was looking at around about that figure as well (I was aiming at saving up at least £1K although with ESA on the wonk, i have no idea whats going to happen now)

 

 

I'm to the north of Sheffield so the wrong way really. Have you rung them and asked, in particular, where in Sheffield it is as it could be anywhere from the outskirts of Chesterfield to a couple of miles from me.

 

I have not given them a call yet, I wanted to see if anyone here had anything else to say etc before I did

 

 

AFAIK you might have a bit of a battle on your hands getting rid of a Q plate. Usually when a vehicle has one they are stuck with them.

 

hmm I was hoping it would be case of

 

Figure out the original reg and Chassis number, then apply for a V5 that way etc

 

or something like that

 

 

 

 

 

(its just my life that a Model 70 shows up for sale, right when im properly up shit creak *sigh* )

[egg]

AFAIK you might have a bit of a battle on your hands getting rid of a Q plate. Usually when a vehicle has one they are stuck with them.

 

Good point.

 

But I think in this case the Invalid Carriage Register should have the information to prove the original year from the chassis number (assuming it is present) - and that the ICR have previously agreed specific arrangements with the DVLA - so that should help here. Though not in my case - as MK12 records are more sketchy.

[Scruffy Bodger]

hmm I was hoping it would be case of

 

Figure out the original reg and Chassis number, then apply for a V5 that way etc

 

or something like that

 

A bit chicken and egg maybe? Usually it's a lack of evidence to ID that gets a vehicle a Q plate in the first place. It could actually be used to your advantage though as Q plate cars always sell for less than their equivalent with a standard plate, it could be used as a bargaining chip.

[LightBulbFun]

alright small update

 

Talked to stuart about it, theres now 79 known surviving Model 70s 

 

(aka this one is a new discovery )

 

he says it should not be too hard to get rid of the Q plate, and that its most likely registered on a made up chassis number

 

so it should be entirely possible with its actual real chassis number to send in a V62 for its real registration number etc

 

he also told me where the chassis number will be located on the actual chassis which is handy to know (it means I can ask the seller about that) if im reading stuarts message correctly its "on the front surface of the front suspension top mount"

 

 

 

I just gave the seller a call but sadly he did not pick up, so I think ill formulate a text message.

[LightBulbFun]

alright text message has been sent, now its just a waiting game, Hope my text message is ok, iv never really done this sort of thing before

 

[egg]

Good stuff. Remember to play it cool though, you know, 'I've other options' 'it's on a Q plate' 'it's not had an MOT in years' 'needs re-painting' if/when it actually comes to negotiations .

 

By the way, I'm rubbish at that, but then when you buy almost exclusively sub-£1k cars, there's less wriggle room!

[Dick Cheeseburger]

Seller sounds like a chancer. 'Very rear car' says it all. Just because it's 'rear, doesn't mean it should be dear. It's one of only a handful of remaining cars, but it's a limited market too.

 

As for buying it, I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Crowd.

Funding.

 

G.I.B

[Christine]

Just get Cav to cut a deal with the seller.....

 

It would be hilarious if it had  " DNX"  painted on the side !!!

[LightBulbFun]

Seller sounds like a chancer. 'Very rear car' says it all. Just because it's 'rear, doesn't mean it should be dear. It's one of only a handful of remaining cars, but it's a limited market too.

 

As for buying it, I've said it before, and I'll say it again.

Crowd.

Funding.

 

G.I.B

 

Yeah I noticed that too

 

im hoping the £2K is just a "I have no idea" pricing and that I can knock him down to something much more sensible

 

 

 

well lets see if anyone here feels like throwing money at me if anyone does want to throw money at me you can PM me and ill provide my paypal address

 

just so everyones clear, money raised will be going towards getting myself a Model 70, and then hopefully towards getting a full driving licence after I get a model 70 (or before hand if the situation is such that I can get driving lesions etc without putting the Model 70 stuff in jeopardy)

 

I currently have £793.50 saved up, I am aiming for £1K, but obviously the more I can raise the better I guess

 

(I hope this is all ok, im rather worried/reluctant to go about asking for money)

 

of course no one has to donate anything, just a tentative dipping of the the toe sort of thing

 

Just get Cav to cut a deal with the seller.....

 

It would be hilarious if it had  " DNX"  painted on the side !!!

 

is cav known for being able to haggle a good deal?

 

and haha yeah, sadly I dont think its that Model 70, would be hilarious and awesome if it was tho

[LightBulbFun]

Ok this might be going somewhere!

 

the guy called back

 

he says he is in the Center of Sheffield the "S2" post code area, is there anyone here near there?

 

and that the VIN plate on the inside of the car is there, so that should make re-registering it easier

 

and that indeed he put £2K because he does not know what its worth, and that he didn't immediately tell me to fuck off when I mentioned iv only got £800 and he might consider £800-1K, so thats good I think  (he says he put it up for sale before and declined someone else who really wanted a Model 70 who offered £1K at the time, only for that person to find a Model 70 elsewhere)

 

he said he will send me some more pictures tomorrow so I look forward to seeing those

 

(he said the only thing it needs is some brake work and then it would be "good for an MOT" so that rules out driving it anywhere if it needs brake work) and the only major body work damage is the cracked front corner

 

but we will see what the pictures tell us

 

(he also says he is only selling it because of a loss of garage space, so I guess that means he is under pressure to shift it ASAP)