invacar LightBulbFun's Invacar & general ramble thread, index on page 1, survivors lists on Pages 24/134 & AdgeCutler's Invacar Mk12 Restoration from Page 186 onwards, still harping on...

[LightBulbFun]

I gave up on the Invalid Carriage Register to be honest. No-one ever answers emails, apart from Stuart when he wanted to sell me a 'book' (pamphlet) he'd written on the history of the Invacar. It didn't tell me anything about Model 70s that I didn't already know by that point. Stuart passed the register to Simon McKeown, but he only seems to use it as a way of promoting art displays he's put on. I just wrote to the DVLA and after a bit of discussion via email, they sent me a V5C.

 

There is definitely a bit of a movement towards having an Invacar gathering at the National Microcar Rally. 

 

its a shame all the invacar savvy people dont seem interested or willing to share their vast knowledge with us

 

its clear they know a lot, and id love to know that too! I find these things fascinating, and its quite frustrating and sad, when people dont want to share their info...

[DodgeRover]

I should think running the register is a bit of a thankless task tbh.

Plasticvandam has answered every query that I can see but I think he could do with a bit of a break.

[egg]

I just wrote to the DVLA and after a bit of discussion via email, they sent me a V5C.

 

There is definitely a bit of a movement towards having an Invacar gathering at the National Microcar Rally. 

 

I'll probably badger you a little bit about how that process worked if/when it arrives. I'm doing this for love not money, but clearly a registered Invacar is worth more than a plateless one, condition aside, and is something I can definitely do and see through to improve this little vehicle's chances.

 

I think even if I was to get this running - the logistics of getting it to Somerset might be a little challenging !

 

More generally - with the ever increasing value of classic cars, particularly the eye watering prices in the micro/bubble car scene (French Sans Permis generally excepted), you can see why there has been a trend to hoover up all the remaining invalid carriages. I think LBF's thread has come at the right time, I just hope as PVD has noted that you can find a model 70 that is at least feasible to save for the budget.

[Datsuncog]

On 2/10/2019 at 3:33 AM, LightBulbFun said:

bringing this one back up because in light of the information from Datsuncog im pretty sure its a Belfast registered Northern Ireland Model 70

not sure on Date of registration tho not got that figured out quite yet... (the photo looks recent-ish but nothing comes up on the DVLA checker, can the DVLA checker do NI cars?)

Yup, SOI would indeed be a Belfast reg, from c.1977 (it's not really possible to tell exactly, although I think we used to have a list in work (Halfords) that gave approximate dates for various 'runs' of NI registrations - used for people who came in looking spares but had no idea what year their car was).

I've owned a 1976 Mini Clubman (POI3324) and a 1980 Cortina (XOI4276), so based on that I reckon SOI probably falls into a 1977 run. It would never have been a white on black plate for one that late, though - so that's been a more recent owner's handiwork.

(Incidentally, I did find quite a succinct online guide to NI registrations here:
https://www.tripsavvy.com/northern-irish-numberplates-1541604)

DVLA's online tax checker does cover current NI cars, since DVLNI merged with them a few years back to create a full UK database - but it only covers cars in NI that were currently taxed or had a SORN declaration in place at the point the two authorities merged in 2014. Cars outside of that, for whatever reason, were never added to the merged system.

So anything that's been stored away in a Northern Irish garage for years won't appear on the official database - and I imagine that would include any Type 70s, which should have all been declared scrapped whenever the final examples were withdrawn by the Department of Health and Social Services in 2003. There was at least one still in use in Belfast in the early 2000s, often parked up in Castle Place, but I doubt there were many at that point.

Assuming that SOI is the correct plate on the one in your photo, I'd guess it's probably not officially registered for road use. But it does look like a recent pic! If I hear anything, I'll let you know...

 

I went back to the Transport Museum on Saturday, too - but unfortunately couldn't blag any more info on their display example. Due to a lack of doorhandles, available staff and generally poor lighting, I could see the VIN plate but, despite much gymnastics, not actually decipher or successfully photograph it. My best guess would be that the numbers '77/9' are stamped in the lower right hand side - so possibly a September 1977 build? What it did between 1977 and 1980 is anyone's guess - possibly shipped over to NI and stored unregistered for a few years before being issued to a user?

I think I might contact the museum and see if they can advise of any more details on this car, as it seems to be a riddle in its own right...

[LightBulbFun]

very cool stuff! thanks for the info

 

1977 defo fits well, as thats the last year of Model 70 production

 

(I find it cool that its SOI as thats a type of rare Low pressure sodium lamp   http://www.lamptech.co.uk/SOI.htm )

 

thanks for going back and having another bash at it

 

defo is quite a mystery that one, and i look forward to seeing if the museum has any more info on it

 

(as a side note and if all else fails, and this is very cheeky, but if it has internal handles still, I think you might be able to slide one of the opening windows with the palm of your hand and pop the door open from the inside...)

[Datsuncog]

On 2/11/2019 at 1:24 PM, LightBulbFun said:

(as a side note and if all else fails, and this is very cheeky, but if it has internal handles still, I think you might be able to slide one of the opening windows with the palm of your hand and pop the door open from the inside...)

Heh, I actually did try that! Unfortunately the little rubber levers mounted to the glass that press down against the frame seemed to be on very tightly, on both sides, so despite all my palming and rubbing, the glass just wouldn't slide...

After a few attempts, I gave up in case security arrived and carted me off for doing something obscene to a Model 70...

[LightBulbFun]

Heh, I actually did try that! Unfortunately the little levers mounted to the glass that press down against the frame seemed to be on very tightly, on both sides, so despite all my palming and rubbing, the glass just wouldn't slide...

 

20190205_123425.jpg

 

After a few attempts, I gave up in case security arrived and carted me off for doing something obscene to a Model 70...

 

Aw and the kid in Juliet Bravo made it look so easy   its a shame its missing door handles, as they all used the same key... (that might be WHY its missing door handles... depends how well someone in the museum knows their invacars) 

 

(good view of the dash at least, and as mentioned, it has the later larger speedo, so that lends credence to 9/77)

 

also posted this in the Microcar world FB group, so far iv not been lynched so off to a good start me thinks

 

[wuvvum]

Semi-off-topic question: would the Innocenti be eligible to attend a microcar rally?  It's only 659cc, and it's certainly rare, but I'm not sure whether it might be too close to being a "proper" car.

[somewhatfoolish]

I should think running the register is a bit of a thankless task tbh.

Plasticvandam has answered every query that I can see but I think he could do with a bit of a break.

If the person with the database/collection of random papers/mr. Trebus' rejected poly bags of shite isn't willing to administer it then it should be found a home where it is accessible, in a museum or library; many university libraries are willing to accept unique original source material.

[LightBulbFun]

Semi-off-topic question: would the Innocenti be eligible to attend a microcar rally?  It's only 659cc, and it's certainly rare, but I'm not sure whether it might be too close to being a "proper" car.

 

considering DW showed up in a Citroen 2CV last year i think ya should be fine

 

outa curiosity which one is it? googling shows that that to be a brand/company rather then a specific car

[LightBulbFun]

If the person with the database/collection of random papers/mr. Trebus' rejected poly bags of shite isn't willing to administer it then it should be found a home where it is accessible, in a museum or library; many university libraries are willing to accept unique original source material.

 

if I was "next door" so to speak, id be more then happy to go through all the paper work/data bases and A absorb it all for my own knowledge

 

and B scan it all in somewhere/somehow, and then stick it up online so anyone can have a read of it

 

(I think its vital such info is also backed up to the cloud so it cant be lost)

[wuvvum]

outa curiosity which one is it? googling shows that that to be a brand/company rather then a specific car

It's this one.

 

 

Wobbler did a road test of it here:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=547glAAli9k

 

considering DW showed up in a Citroen 2CV last year i think ya should be fine

 I refer the honourable gentleman to my previous comment about "proper" cars.

 

*runs, hides*

[dollywobbler]

Semi-off-topic question: would the Innocenti be eligible to attend a microcar rally?  It's only 659cc, and it's certainly rare, but I'm not sure whether it might be too close to being a "proper" car.

 

There's definitely a feeling amongst some in the Microcar world that the rules should be opened up. They're keen to get visitor numbers up, so I say take the Innocenti. It'll look huge and ridiculous, much like my 2CV did last year (incidentally, not the only 2CV either), but I think it will fit in.

[Yoss]

yaaaay lightbulb and Routemaster stuff 

 

thank you for posting that,

 

I found it very interesting, (I do have Somewhere... a Lightbulb guide for Routemasters from one of the RMOOA magazines i got back in the day)

 

tis very cool that you have some orignial LT ones, im actually not 100% sure on who made those

 

I had a couple from RML2760 (given to me by the conductor not stolen!) sadly 1 broke, and the second I got to replace that one, sadly met a very explosive end when I failed to realise my Variac (Variable voltage auto transformer) was set to 270V and not 24V....

 

I would love to get an orignial LT example (and a new modern one) for the collection at some point

 

from examining the features I want to say the LT examples where made by GEC in Shaw, Oldham, I am not sure who made the moderns, I would like to hope they where made by Victoria lighting (which was a small company setup to produce special types made by GEC, when GEC got bought out and the rest of the factory sent overseas), but I dont think they have made lightbulbs here since 2003

 

interesting that your head lights are 12V, when I was at Routemaster 60 in 2014, I handed over far too much cash to one of the stalls there selling bus parts for some Lightbulbs, (for both the collection and as a memento) and both types of Headlamp bulbs I got where 24V (but then again the saloon bulb he sold me was 60W! rather then 22W, which I know is wrong, and is quite naughty given the potential to heavily overload the wiring if you outfit an entire bus with them)

 

as for the ones that go dim, id try giving your lamp holder contacts a good polishing, as they are probably a bit oxidised after 50 years of use (and on the original lamps, giving the solder contacts on the base a light reflowing)

 

Cool see you have the inside illuminated advert as well as your rare external ones

 

do you have pictures of the old tube that failed the light? im curious if it was actually at EOL or if you just had a bad ground or such preventing it from starting properly

 

(the early electronic ballasts are designed for T12 tubes only and only put out a 200-300V OCV to strike the tube, so you need a good ground going along the tube to ensure they strike up properly, they actually made/make T12 tubes with a painted metal stripe along the tube connected to one end cap shell that you can ground incase you cant mount the tube near a grounded metal surface, you can actually see the metal toung that does this in your picture showing the lamp holder, but getting ahold of those special T12s is quite tricky these days as even regular T12 tubes get thin on the ground)

 

which is why the old tube glowed brighter when you touched it, because you where providing a grounding path helping the tube conduct electricity slightly easier

 

I have recorded such phenomena happening here

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S2wmRWvET0

 

if your wondering, that Osram 20W T12 was made made by Philips at their Hamilton Factory up in Scotland in (date code is N0b8 ohhh errr     ) November 2000

 

(you can easily tell its a Philips made tube for Osram even without the date code or such, because of its classic Philips stepped end cap design)

 

heres some Warm white Sylvania tubes if your interested in stocking up on T12s for it  (Warm white too should match with the tungsten saloon lighting better) https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/322044243194

 

 

I wish I could pop round and get all 5 of the tubes in the advert working   (also very curious to see what tubes its rocking)

 

Thanks for the detailed reply (I wouldn't have expected anything else!). A few points from above. Taking the bulbs out and cleaning the contacts would be a good idea if it wasnt for the afforementioned fact that if you try and remove the original ones the glass bowl will come off in your hand leaving the brass bayonet behind. I know I should stop being a skinflint and buy enough new bulbs to do the whole bus but I like the fact that some of these bulbs are over 30 years old (and possibly considerably older than that). If it was still in service I would probably have to replace them but as it only gets a class 5 MOT they dont even try the interior lights.

 

The interior fluorescent tube I took out had no markings at all. Thanks for the link, 25 of those would last me about 300 years, but it's good to know they're that cheap. Be useful if I had an RMC or RCL, they do have fluorescent saloon lights. One day...

 

As for getting the exterior advert going, I know it wouldn't take much, simply holding them as your clip shows would probably work. There's just one problem there - they are behind three big perspex panels. The bulbs are essentially on the outside of the bus with the three perspex panels held in place with a rubber seal a bit like an old car windscreen rubber which inevitably leaks. It's little wonder they were so unreliable in service.

 

To get these panels out you need a scaffold tower and ideally two people. I last took it out in 2006. The advert you see in the picture, I had made by a local sign company. I chose this partly for its simplicity and partly because my bus carried this very advert in 1985/6. It was very common at the time on the illuminated advert buses. The sign company gave me some large sheets of yellow vinyl and did the lettering separately. I took the three panels home and layed them out down the garden path to apply the advert.

 

Unfortunately one of the panels snapped in half when I was getting it back out of the car but the vinyl held it together so we put it back in the bus as it was.

 

The advert has been on there over 12 years now and is looking a bit tatty. It does need replacing, then we could sort the fluorescent tubes out properly but I seem to have about a hundred more pressing jobs to do first.

 

Looking again at this picture,

it would appear that each tube is roughly the same length as a window. This would make each one about four foot long. Does that sound right? Four times four foot and a two foot one at the back would make the advert panel nearly nineteen foot long allowing for a small gap between each one. On a 27' 4" bus that looks about right. Are four foot tubes still readily available?

[LightBulbFun]

im pleased to report my post on facebook has gone down well

 

(its a shame its on facebook, the website design sucks!)

 

where iv been talking to a few of the invacar savvy people

 

and one of them gave me a drop box link to a bundle of photos of various invalid carriages they themselves had come across

 

and in there was not only a Model 70 I had not come across yet, but also detailed shots of a Model 67! woo

 

heres the Model 70 TTW906R, its a close reletive to TTW991R ( Stuart  told me he owned this one himself at one point )

 

 

 

 

 

 

and heres a few of the Model 67 shots

 

 

 

 

[LightBulbFun]

Thanks for the detailed reply (I wouldn't have expected anything else!). A few points from above. Taking the bulbs out and cleaning the contacts would be a good idea if it wasnt for the afforementioned fact that if you try and remove the original ones the glass bowl will come off in your hand leaving the brass bayonet behind. I know I should stop being a skinflint and buy enough new bulbs to do the whole bus but I like the fact that some of these bulbs are over 30 years old (and possibly considerably older than that). If it was still in service I would probably have to replace them but as it only gets a class 5 MOT they dont even try the interior lights.

 

The interior fluorescent tube I took out had no markings at all. Thanks for the link, 25 of those would last me about 300 years, but it's good to know they're that cheap. Be useful if I had an RMC or RCL, they do have fluorescent saloon lights. One day...

 

As for getting the exterior advert going, I know it wouldn't take much, simply holding them as your clip shows would probably work. There's just one problem there - they are behind three big perspex panels. The bulbs are essentially on the outside of the bus with the three perspex panels held in place with a rubber seal a bit like an old car windscreen rubber which inevitably leaks. It's little wonder they were so unreliable in service.

 

To get these panels out you need a scaffold tower and ideally two people. I last took it out in 2006. The advert you see in the picture, I had made by a local sign company. I chose this partly for its simplicity and partly because my bus carried this very advert in 1985/6. It was very common at the time on the illuminated advert buses. The sign company gave me some large sheets of yellow vinyl and did the lettering separately. I took the three panels home and layed them out down the garden path to apply the advert.

 

Unfortunately one of the panels snapped in half when I was getting it back out of the car but the vinyl held it together so we put it back in the bus as it was.

 

The advert has been on there over 12 years now and is looking a bit tatty. It does need replacing, then we could sort the fluorescent tubes out properly but I seem to have about a hundred more pressing jobs to do first.

 

Looking again at this picture,

IMG_20190210_204750.jpg

it would appear that each tube is roughly the same length as a window. This would make each one about four foot long. Does that sound right? Four times four foot and a two foot one at the back would make the advert panel nearly nineteen foot long allowing for a small gap between each one. On a 27' 4" bus that looks about right. Are four foot tubes still readily available?

 

yeah the caps coming lose is a problem us collectors face too sadly, (its one of the reasons I think they are GEC made too, as GEC is known for having somewhat weak cap cement)

 

a good substitute for a metal striped tube if you cant get ahold of one, is to take a strand of wire and wrap it around the tube in a spiral and then tie to ground

 

yeah 4ft sounds about right for the main tubes (and is what I think I worked out when i asked you about it in the bus shite thread) ) 4ft T12 tubes are relatively common still but they are starting to get a bit thin on the ground now sadly

 

 

I wonder why early fluorescent saloon lighting in buses was done with 2ft tubes, when 4ft gear was available...

 

I remember coming across an RMA resting somewhere in London and the owner kindly let me onboard, and one of his lights had a missing cover, and the tube was a Mid 1970s Thorn one which was a proper treat to see

 

(was also my first time seeing an RMA in the flesh )

[LightBulbFun]

Finally got some more infomation on RRE20L!

 

Fraser got it and then it went to a chap in London somewhere...

 

 

checkout the decals on the Van!

 

(Fraser also owned TTW991R)

[egg]

I'm loving the Facebook thread LBF, it's like all your birthday's coming at once

[LightBulbFun]

I'm loving the Facebook thread LBF, it's like all your birthday's coming at once

 

I Know right?! having a hard time keeping up with it all 

 

(update on VES108S, turns out its Frasers current Model 70, drives but does not stop)

[egg]

I particularly like the bit where Big Al suggests you should ask Simon if you can become the registrar for the register!

[LightBulbFun]

I particularly like the bit where Big Al suggests you should ask Simon if you can become the registrar for the register!

 

haha yeah maybe someday

 

tis defo something iv given some thought too, given the poor state things are currently in with the ICR sadly

 

one for Zel here, Barry had this chassis, and I was thinking "that section of rear valance would come in really handy for TPA"

 

 

he said these where in running order and he drove em round the garden, imagine how rapid they must be with no body work and a now lower center of mass!

 

3 wheeling go cart  (or Invacar Superleggera  )

[SierraMikeHotel]

Thanks for the Routemaster content: those spherical bulbs were part of the whole experience and seeing them takes me straight back to childhood. Did they use the same ones in mark 1 BR coaches? At that level that you can't quite read by.

[LightBulbFun]

Thanks for the Routemaster content: those spherical bulbs were part of the whole experience and seeing them takes me straight back to childhood. Did they use the same ones in mark 1 BR coaches? At that level that you can't quite read by.

 

the 22W lightbulbs Yoss posted where unique to London Transport any other bus probably used something like the smaller bulb yoss also posted about

 

(Bus bulbs where normally 12W or 20W, LTs ones where special 22W ones, with most other bus bulbs being of the smaller type, there where ones of the same size as the LT type but they too where 12 or 20W only) I very much prefer good old tungsten lighting in an environment like a Routemaster, fits the whole styling/theme very well nice and cosy

 

 

 

 

Dollywobbler just posted this picture on facebook, and I thought MVW434P looked oddly familiar then it hit me! (WHK372L is new to me also, another one i can add to the survivor list )

 

 

 

its a close relative to the one in Thiland

 

[mrbenn]

Dollywobbler just posted this picture on facebook, and I thought MVW434P looked oddly familiar then it hit me! (WHK372L is new to me also, another one i can add to the survivor list )

 

 

51939190_10157121962243200_1068545016651055104_o.jpg

 

its a close relative to the one in Thiland

 

 

Where did DW post that, out of interest? AS page?

[LightBulbFun]

here (if the link works) https://www.facebook.com/groups/950689934973969/?multi_permalinks=2111407605568857&notif_id=1549918804245299&notif_t=group_activity

 

and heres my post https://www.facebook.com/groups/950689934973969/?multi_permalinks=2110934332282851

[mrbenn]

Ah, many thanks!

 

ETA which one are you on your profile pic LBF? I'm going to say the one on the right.

[LightBulbFun]

Ah, many thanks!

 

ETA which one are you on your profile pic LBF? I'm going to say the one on the right.

 

 my profile picture on Facebook is taken from the 50th anniversary episode of Doctor who when they just burst through the painting into the black archive, I thought that scene/shot was particularly epic

 

(oh and my age on FB you can ignore too, Sept 7th is my Month/day but 1933 was picked because thats when London Transport was formed )

[mrbenn]

I'm afraid my FB stalking didn't extend past looking at your pic. I have the attention span of a goldfish with ADHD

[Squire_Dawson]

I knew GEC had a factory at Trafford Park but had no idea they also had operations in Shaw. It must've been a massive firm in its heyday.

A major annoyance of mine - someone has to be annoyed by these things - is the proliferation of LEDs in preserved coaching stock. KWVR have a fine set of Metropolitan suburban coaches and they used the standard pearl light bulbs. Last time I travelled on them these had gone and were replaced by some flickering 'atmospheric heritage' shit. Like when the Cuntcil rips out 100-odd year old cast iron lamp standards and replaces them with something modern made to look 'old'.

[Squire_Dawson]

And it cannot be for want of bulbs they were replaced. I'm sure CEAG manufacture them.