Wanted Help needed - dead 205

[strangeangel]

The CJ FTPd the other day, just while I was moving it from where it was parked in the road onto the drive. It started and ran fine, but after a few seconds coughed, farted and carked it. No amount of cranking could get it to start again.

 

So today I had a look... I pulled the fuel line off the top of the filter and cranked it over & there's loads of fuel coming through. Whipped out a plug to check for sparks - all OK. This is making me think the fuel injection system has gone Pete Tong, which is bad because, while I'm OK with carbs, I know less than the square root of nob all about FI.

 

Any ideas please??

[doubleyeller]

Sounds like a case of condensation shorting out the spark to me. Whip the plugs out, dry them. Dry off the distributor. Could be a drop of oil got in there causing problems. If that doesn't work then it will be fuel starvation imo

[djimbob]

Something electrical I reckon, because french

 

Throttle position sensor or similar got some crud/damp on it?

 

Gissa shout and I could pop round and kick the tyres with you if that might help?

[SierraMikeHotel]

We used to have a 309 with the rattly 1.3 Simca engine - not sure if yours has the same?

They were really prone to the dizzy cap furring up.  Try whipping that off and cleaning all the contacts up with a nail file.

[Crispian_J_Hotson]

Had this with a bad AFM. Started fine, moved car but it coughed a bit. Upon restarting it wouldn't have it, like it was out of fuel. Kept on trying to start the engine after adding fuel, then the AFM blew up through a rather vicious back fire. No amount of fettling resolved it, even cleaning and setting it up bang onto the parameters listed for it, doing that threw me right off the scent. Took a couple of months to headscratch my way out of that one after replacing most other things on the motronic with no joy, including rebuilding the injectors.

Replacement AFM was found and all ran better than before.

 

Edit: it's worth getting the parameters for the components on your car (which will be somewhere on the web) and test yours against them with a multimeter before you fettle around so you can see if something has gone bad because = free.

[strangeangel]

Cheers for all the suggestions. I had the plugs out and distributor cap off, it was dry inside and the contacts were in good shape. TBH I thought it would be, 'cos I fitted a new one just after buying the car a year or so ago.

 

Still no dice, sadly. There was a strange buzzing noise one time I tried to start it, it's never done that before. Oh well, it's cold now and the light is going... time to sack it off for the night.

[jon.k]

I’m not sure if this matches the symptoms that you’ve found, but when my 205 has an intermittent starting problem it was the little ignition module. This is apparently common on 205s but it confused us for a while because it was completely random. I don’t know that it would cause the car to splutter and cut out when running though.

[M'coli]

What engine is in this, the TU or the XU?

Either way, the usual way to diagnose fuel problems or sparks is to try this: disable the fuel pump somehow (fuse removed for example), turn it over while spraying Easy Start into it. If it fires, it's the fueling, if it doesn't it's sparks.

[strangeangel]

What engine is in this, the TU or the XU?

Either way, the usual way to diagnose fuel problems or sparks is to try this: disable the fuel pump somehow (fuse removed for example), turn it over while spraying Easy Start into it. If it fires, it's the fueling, if it doesn't it's sparks.

 

It's the 1360cc (TU?).

[M'coli]

Coilpack ignition with no distributor?

[scdan4]

What engine is in this, the TU or the XU?

Either way, the usual way to diagnose fuel problems or sparks is to try this: disable the fuel pump somehow (fuse removed for example), turn it over while spraying Easy Start into it. If it fires, it's the fueling, if it doesn't it's sparks.

I had this on a tu engine. Low tension amplifier.just quit while driving one rainy Xmas eve.

 

 

ETA should have quoted Jon. Doh.

[strangeangel]

Coilpack ignition with no distributor?

 

No, it has a distributor.

[mat_the_cat]

I had this on a tu engine. Low tension amplifier.just quit while driving one rainy Xmas eve.

 

But in this case he has sparks, which at lead proves the LT side of the ignition system (doesn't mean the HT side isn't breaking down under the extra load of having to spark under compression though...)

 

I'd try and prove whether or not the injectors are firing. Noid lights are cheap and will prove whether the injectors are seeing a pulse. If not, then time to look at what would stop that - blind guess crank sensor (if the ECU doesn't know it's turning, it won't fire the injectors). But that's getting ahead of ourselves, diagnosis first!

[vaughant]

Try tow starting it, often cures a multitude of sins, TPS, cam/crank sensors etc.

 

Another top tip I've found is if you do try towing it and bump starting, if the battery light stays on strong but it won't start, it's most likely the ignition side.

[Talbot]

The fact that it "coughed, farted and then carked it" would seeem to point to fuelling, as 9 times out of 10, if it's an ignition issue, it will just die instantly.

 

When you crank it over, are the plugs wetting with fuel?  Even easier, does the exhaust pipe smell of fuel when cranking?  If not, you're not fuelling at all.

 

As mentioned above, waz a squirt of easy-start into the inlet and see if it runs for a moment.  if so, you have your answer (although not the fix...)

[PiperCub]

I’m not sure if this matches the symptoms that you’ve found, but when my 205 has an intermittent starting problem it was the little ignition module. This is apparently common on 205s but it confused us for a while because it was completely random. I don’t know that it would cause the car to splutter and cut out when running though.

 

This - or the amp pick-up connection (3 wires) that goes into the distributor if it's the similar to my GTi (XU5 engine). A dirty/loose connection there caused it's only non-start in my ownership. 

 

Plus the above easy-start trick should eliminate any nagging doubt as to whether its a fuel or ignition issue.

[strangeangel]

Thanks for all your thoughts so far, chaps. I'll get a can of Easy Start tomorrow lunchtime and see what that does.

[Ghosty]

put an XUD in it

[strangeangel]

put an XUD in it

 

That would be the ultimate development, yes. Clattering around with the top down on a warm Summer's day... I can't believe they didn't offer it as an option, frankly

[djimbob]

That would be the ultimate development, yes. Clattering around with the top down on a warm Summer's day... I can't believe they didn't offer it as an option, frankly

 

Max has just made me aware of such an engine for cheap, and a full car as well, you can check it out on Friday

[dozeydustman]

Having worked on a number of TU & XU engines, it does sound like an airflow meter issue - classic 80's/90's fuel injected 205 fault.

 

Does it start with a bit of mild pressure on the go pedal? i.e. just enough to lift the revs off idle. Also worth checking any wiring connections to the injection system assuming it's a mono-jetronic system.

[strangeangel]

Does it start with a bit of mild pressure on the go pedal? i.e. just enough to lift the revs off idle.

 

Nope, doesn't start at all. Deader than the deadest thing in Deadsville. I will try and fire it up on the Easy Start at the weekend and report back.

[Braddon81]

Is this single point injection?.... If in which case it is I'd check out the crank and maf sensors. I had a Zx 1.4 estate back in the day with essentially the same lump and over 150k had one of each fail on me producing immediate non running symptoms without warning.

[strangeangel]

Right then... Easy Start fired into the inlet produced nothing. The car still turns over with the occasional cough, but absolutely no indication that it will ever fire.

 

I had all the plugs out again - there was a good spark at each one, but they weren't wet with fuel as you'd expect. There is definitely fuel getting to the FI unit - pulling the fuel line off the top of the fuel filter while cranking has the stuff spraying everywhere.

 

So it looks like a fuelling problem.

[dozeydustman]

Sounds like no ignition breakdown while everything is screwed and plugged in for normal running, which is good.

 

There's a little throttle control valve or motor in the top of the injector barrel, wondering if this is faulty or blocked.

I have a PDF scan of the complete Haynes book of lies for the 205 on my 'puter if it's of any use to you. Can PM or e-mail it over.

[M'coli]

Right then... Easy Start fired into the inlet produced nothing. The car still turns over with the occasional cough, but absolutely no indication that it will ever fire.

 

I had all the plugs out again - there was a good spark at each one, but they weren't wet with fuel as you'd expect. There is definitely fuel getting to the FI unit - pulling the fuel line off the top of the fuel filter while cranking has the stuff spraying everywhere.

 

So it looks like a fuelling problem.

If it won't fire on Easi-start then it's not a lack of fuel on its own, I think it will be the coil breaking down under load - before I knew of the Easi-start trick the wife had a XU powered 309 that had exactly these symptoms; it would cough occasionally on turning over, it would make sparks with the plugs out, but just wouldn't start, even with a tow.  I really should've twigged when getting towed that the rev counter would tremor for a bit and then go to zero for the rest of the attempt showing that the ignition circuit wasn't driving the tachometer.  After 2 days of chasing it, just as we were about to give up baffled, it suddenly stopped showing sparks at the plug that was out...new amp didn't sort it, but a new coil did.  You could try closing the plug gaps a bit - say down to 20 thou' - to make it easier for the spark to jump the gap, and see if that does anything.

 

[strangeangel]

I have a PDF scan of the complete Haynes book of lies for the 205 on my 'puter if it's of any use to you. Can PM or e-mail it over.

 

I have one here, thanks for offering though.

[Crispian_J_Hotson]

 

 

Edit: it's worth getting the parameters for the components on your car (which will be somewhere on the web) and test yours against them with a multimeter before you fettle around so you can see if something has gone bad because = free.

 

This needs to be done, you'll be chasing your tail otherwise.